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Demigra vs Giratina
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
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Well it's shown on Giratina's profile that he was on par with unsealed Dialga. What was the result of the match with Dialga?
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We don't use that kind of logic here. Even if Demigra won or stalemated Giratina is a completely different character with different abilities.Stryk3r1337 said:
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I mean...there wasn't really a matchup with Dialga. I attempted to change Arceus vs Demigra into Demigra vs Dialga halfway through, but it fell flat. Consensus wasn't really...there...
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I was just using at as a comparison point since I don't know much about pokemon. For the record, I think Giratina takes this via hax.
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So arceus was stomping demigra and you tried to make a fairer matchup by pitting demigra against dialga? Can you give me a link to the thread? Thank you.The real cal howard said:
EDIT: Nevermind. Found it.
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Tricky match up but does Giratina have resistance to Mind manipulation? Don't think Giratina could put down Demigra for good but I could be wrong. Heroes Demigra also has feats of affecting Non-corporals. I vote inconclusive for now.
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Well it offed Sheena's mind control, which is pretty darn good.
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How good is Sheena's mind control? (In terms of feats)
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Demigra's mind control is really good, with only God-Tier people such as Beerus being able to resist. The likes of Vegeta who previously overpowered Babidi via sheer pride and willpower alone didn't even make a small stand, or Gohan and many others who are insanely powerful. That's like the only resistance feat DB has and Demigra overpowered it so bear with me xD
No idea about Sheena's one.
No idea about Sheena's one.
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Demigras mind control is via his magic which "transcends human knowledge"
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Well Sheena's is also quite good since it can even control Dialga and Palkia, who for obv reasons makes this very impressive.
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No, Sheena has no mental manipulation. She connects to the heart of the Pokémon and talks to them, if they accept they do something, it's not like Sheena was forcing them to do something. In addition, even if she had that power it is still not Giratina's resistance and rather Sheena's weakness, It is said in the movie that if a Pokémon has its heart covered in hatred the power of Sheena does not work. So Sheena has no mental manipulation (That's more telepathy) and all Giratima had was hatred in her heart which is the weakness of Sheena's power.
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So you're saying Sheena doesn't have telepathy... Because she has a weakness ? Can i remind you what Damos did to Arceus , who still had the Mind Plate ? He literally knocked him out with the ability . Both have the same power... So Sheena's is comparable. The ONLY reason it didn't work.. He had hatred in his heart. Otherwise.. It'd definitely would have worked .
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Just saying, if this is heroes Demigra than he can do it even if he is dead. When he died, his negative energy was still a presence in the multiverse and warped timelines, possessed people and mind controlled them
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Where did I say she has no telepathy? She only has telepathy and not mental manipulation. She does not control the Pokémon's mind as they are trying to appear, it connects to the Pokémon's heart and talks with them. Just this, she has no mind control and Girarina resisting Sheena's telepathy is not resistance of mental manipulation, in fact neither is it made of resistance but rather a weakness of Sheena's power
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Actually Ex, thats kinda exactly what Sheena did.
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We've debated this many times before... There isn't anything proving she didn't control Dialga and Palkia with her power.
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For one, her ability acts as both empathic and mind control. Sheena doesn't just pacify whatever pokemon she connects do, she can literally command them to do [insert here].
Sheena summoned Dialga from its own realm to come and save pikachu and piplup from Arceus's vortex. Blatent commanding, not pacifying.
While nice about it, Sheena ordered Giratina to not battle with Dialga anymore and it did so. Also wasnt pacification, a straight up command and Giratina was already calmed by Ash when he got in the middle of the situation. If it wasn't controlled there's no way Giratina would suddenly listen to a random person out of nowhere willingly.
Sheena ordered Dialga from another time period to send her, Ash and co. further into the past and Dialga did just that. Not pacifying.
Sheena and Damos also comamnded the pokemon attacking Arceus (with lovely dose of PIS ovo) to stop when connecting to them. Also another order.
None of these instances was Sheena calming down the pokemon she connected to. And in any case, even if a pokemon's anger lessens the extent of her power, that still doesnt mean it can't count as resistance. It depends on the level of anger a pokemon has to make the power useless, they can't just no sell it by being pissed period. This is evident by the fact that Sheena gave Giratina's anger a struggle before being defeated, but was insta stopped by Arceus's. Or better yet, Damos being able to connect to Arceus, even when Arceus unleashed all of its anger at once.
Besides, even ignoring all this, Giratina still has resistance to mind hax via it being completely unaffected by the Red Chain it destroyed, also being able to control Dialga and Palkia simtaneously. If anything, this is an even better feat than coming from Sheena.
Sheena summoned Dialga from its own realm to come and save pikachu and piplup from Arceus's vortex. Blatent commanding, not pacifying.
While nice about it, Sheena ordered Giratina to not battle with Dialga anymore and it did so. Also wasnt pacification, a straight up command and Giratina was already calmed by Ash when he got in the middle of the situation. If it wasn't controlled there's no way Giratina would suddenly listen to a random person out of nowhere willingly.
Sheena ordered Dialga from another time period to send her, Ash and co. further into the past and Dialga did just that. Not pacifying.
Sheena and Damos also comamnded the pokemon attacking Arceus (with lovely dose of PIS ovo) to stop when connecting to them. Also another order.
None of these instances was Sheena calming down the pokemon she connected to. And in any case, even if a pokemon's anger lessens the extent of her power, that still doesnt mean it can't count as resistance. It depends on the level of anger a pokemon has to make the power useless, they can't just no sell it by being pissed period. This is evident by the fact that Sheena gave Giratina's anger a struggle before being defeated, but was insta stopped by Arceus's. Or better yet, Damos being able to connect to Arceus, even when Arceus unleashed all of its anger at once.
Besides, even ignoring all this, Giratina still has resistance to mind hax via it being completely unaffected by the Red Chain it destroyed, also being able to control Dialga and Palkia simtaneously. If anything, this is an even better feat than coming from Sheena.
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@Kukui Can you show me where?
I have downloaded the movie in three different versions and in none of them is it said that it controls them mentally.
It is said that it connects with the heart of the Pokémon and talks to them.
And then it is made clear that Giratina's motive not to be affected is because of the anger that Giratina has.
I have not at any time encountered a passage that says that Sheena controls them mentally. And even if she were to control it, again this is not a feat of Giratina but a weakness of Sheena because Giratina protects herself with something that is the weakness of Sheena's power. So when Giratina no longer has hatred in her heart after reviewing Satoshi, Sheena was able to talk to Giratina because her hatred was gone.
The same goes for all the other times where this occurred in the movie. What Sheena does with her power is to communicate with the Pokémon and not control them with mental power.
I have downloaded the movie in three different versions and in none of them is it said that it controls them mentally.
It is said that it connects with the heart of the Pokémon and talks to them.
And then it is made clear that Giratina's motive not to be affected is because of the anger that Giratina has.
I have not at any time encountered a passage that says that Sheena controls them mentally. And even if she were to control it, again this is not a feat of Giratina but a weakness of Sheena because Giratina protects herself with something that is the weakness of Sheena's power. So when Giratina no longer has hatred in her heart after reviewing Satoshi, Sheena was able to talk to Giratina because her hatred was gone.
The same goes for all the other times where this occurred in the movie. What Sheena does with her power is to communicate with the Pokémon and not control them with mental power.
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If you have the movie with you then, with all due respect, you should be able to look those scenes up yourself when they're major important points in the movie.
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No Kukui, this is just communication. Sheena connects to the heart of the Pokémon, basically the same principle as the Pokémon Ranger. What they do is use their powers to talk to the Pokémon, through which they can give orders to it.
But it does not happen because Sheena is forcing through mental powers, but because she is talking and explaining why something should be done.
Can you show me where it is said that Giratina was not affected by the Red Chain? I've seen anime, manga and games and I can not remember that happening. Even more in the manga Giratina was easily controlled by a mind control machine.
But it does not happen because Sheena is forcing through mental powers, but because she is talking and explaining why something should be done.
Can you show me where it is said that Giratina was not affected by the Red Chain? I've seen anime, manga and games and I can not remember that happening. Even more in the manga Giratina was easily controlled by a mind control machine.
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@Executor
It is not "just" communication if he is able to get through to Arceus while he has the Mind Plate. The Mind Plate nullifies all psychic abilities... Meaning it shouldn't have worked. Yet, it did, implying it's power is much greater than first recognized.
Dialga being commanded was definitely a command , unless you believe she connected to him from another timeline. Also, i am sure neither Giratina or Dialga would stop their fight for anyone willingly, considering how intense their rivalry was, and taking other movies into account , so it was a command then as well. Secondly ... You do realize communicating with them can lead into a command... Right ?
It is not "just" communication if he is able to get through to Arceus while he has the Mind Plate. The Mind Plate nullifies all psychic abilities... Meaning it shouldn't have worked. Yet, it did, implying it's power is much greater than first recognized.
Dialga being commanded was definitely a command , unless you believe she connected to him from another timeline. Also, i am sure neither Giratina or Dialga would stop their fight for anyone willingly, considering how intense their rivalry was, and taking other movies into account , so it was a command then as well. Secondly ... You do realize communicating with them can lead into a command... Right ?
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Its funny Pokemon Ranger is brought up when, according to Giratina's page, he's unaffected by it lol.
But in anycase, I don't see how her power and a rangers power is the same at all. Unless this is a game speciifc thing, rangers use their capture stylers to launch a top at a pokemon and it surrounds them in a aura that temporarily puts them under the rangers commands through their stylers without the ranger neeing to capture them. Sheena literally just connects to their hearts directly. In addition, just because she uses their hearts to talk to them doesn't mean she isn't forcing them to do what she wants. It just means she uses indirect mind control via controlling their hearts to have them under her bidding. There's literally no way Dialga, Palkia or Giratina would suddenly listen to a random stranger from out of nowhere, willignly (otherwise needing the red chain to get them under the bearer's command would be pointless) for no real reason if they weren't being controlled. Unless your someone they remember and like such as Ash. Adding in the fact that you need a certain level of hatred to no sell Sheena's ability for the reasons I already explained.
I believe Giratina and the Red Chain stuff comes from Pokemon Generations since he was able to destroy it in a single shadow ball easily. If not, then a CRT should be made to ask this since this is something included on his page.
But in anycase, I don't see how her power and a rangers power is the same at all. Unless this is a game speciifc thing, rangers use their capture stylers to launch a top at a pokemon and it surrounds them in a aura that temporarily puts them under the rangers commands through their stylers without the ranger neeing to capture them. Sheena literally just connects to their hearts directly. In addition, just because she uses their hearts to talk to them doesn't mean she isn't forcing them to do what she wants. It just means she uses indirect mind control via controlling their hearts to have them under her bidding. There's literally no way Dialga, Palkia or Giratina would suddenly listen to a random stranger from out of nowhere, willignly (otherwise needing the red chain to get them under the bearer's command would be pointless) for no real reason if they weren't being controlled. Unless your someone they remember and like such as Ash. Adding in the fact that you need a certain level of hatred to no sell Sheena's ability for the reasons I already explained.
I believe Giratina and the Red Chain stuff comes from Pokemon Generations since he was able to destroy it in a single shadow ball easily. If not, then a CRT should be made to ask this since this is something included on his page.
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I compared the two for following the same principle. They use their power to communicate with the heart of the Pokémon, if they have anger then it becomes increasingly difficult for them to connect with the Pokémon, but it is still not impossible if they have enough ability to communicate with them.
It is remarkable the difference of this because to communicate with the heart of a Pokémon is allowed and appreciable by the world Pokémon, but to try to control them mentally (The Pinchers, Dim Sun and Pluto) is considered a criminal act.
In both cases they communicate with Pokémon and through it give orders, but do not force or force them to do something they do not want. And in both cases if a Pokémon has a great rage it becomes more difficult for the communication to occur.
So in both cases it is not resistance to mental manipulation, but a weakness of technique. A weakness that can be cheated if the user of the technique is very skilled with it.
Let's say that a character has an X power, but if the opponent has some characteristic and then this power does not work with great efficiency. We do not add to this opponent X power resistance, but X power has a weakness. It's basically the same Time-Skip principle in the DBS manga, stronger opponents than Hit are not affected by it. In the same way in Pokémon, the Pokémon with great anger has a resistance to the powers of Sheena, Damos and the Pokémon Ranger. But not because they have resistance to the type of power, but rather the power in question has a weakness that is exploited by those Pokémon.
Giratina destroyed the Red Chain in Generations, but how to destroy a mental manipulation device counts as resistance to mental manipulation?
It is remarkable the difference of this because to communicate with the heart of a Pokémon is allowed and appreciable by the world Pokémon, but to try to control them mentally (The Pinchers, Dim Sun and Pluto) is considered a criminal act.
In both cases they communicate with Pokémon and through it give orders, but do not force or force them to do something they do not want. And in both cases if a Pokémon has a great rage it becomes more difficult for the communication to occur.
So in both cases it is not resistance to mental manipulation, but a weakness of technique. A weakness that can be cheated if the user of the technique is very skilled with it.
Let's say that a character has an X power, but if the opponent has some characteristic and then this power does not work with great efficiency. We do not add to this opponent X power resistance, but X power has a weakness. It's basically the same Time-Skip principle in the DBS manga, stronger opponents than Hit are not affected by it. In the same way in Pokémon, the Pokémon with great anger has a resistance to the powers of Sheena, Damos and the Pokémon Ranger. But not because they have resistance to the type of power, but rather the power in question has a weakness that is exploited by those Pokémon.
Giratina destroyed the Red Chain in Generations, but how to destroy a mental manipulation device counts as resistance to mental manipulation?
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Also this:
"I guess the Pokémon of the lakes must have gone home. I understand that they can keep balance against either Palkia or Dialga. Does it mean they can't do that with Giratina? ...Oops. This is no time for idle chitchat."
"I guess the Pokémon of the lakes must have gone home. I understand that they can keep balance against either Palkia or Dialga. Does it mean they can't do that with Giratina? ...Oops. This is no time for idle chitchat."
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