Demigra Regen?

[TheUnshakableOne]

for physical body destruction... back in OG DB, and EOS frieza saga... They were capable of reducing somone to only atoms if they can't resist it...


blasted, and reduced to atoms
(






)
Not for sure if my spoiler bar will work... still new to trying it..

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Does soul Punisher/Star dust breaker count as soul destruction and be scaled with...? i don't mean to annoy anyone..

 

[Dragomer]

Does soul Punisher/Star dust breaker count as soul destruction and be scaled with...? i don't mean to annoy anyone..

well, it did erase Janemba but Janemba's nature was never very clear

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Dying from losing your Ki doesn't mean you lose your soul, that literally never happened.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also nobody has ever been reduced to atoms in Dragon Ball since Buu's Regenerationn is explictely on a cellular level.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Isn't there some sort of Heaven/Hell system in DB where your soul is transported after death?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, and when people lose all their Ki they die (See literally every Ki-draining character in Dragon Ball). And then they go to the Afterlife. This Mid-Godly proposal shows a cavalier disregard for the actual cosmology and canon of Dragon Ball for the sake of an upgrade.

 

[Akreious]

Yes, and when people lose all their Ki they die (See literally every Ki-draining character in Dragon Ball). And then they go to the Afterlife. This Mid-Godly proposal shows a cavalier disregard for the actual cosmology and canon of Dragon Ball for the sake of an upgrade.

You ignored all my posts. Again. Also no Ki-Draining character in dragon ball ever killed someone purely from draining Ki. Never once has that happened. They always finished their opponents off in the traditional way.

"Dying from losing your Ki doesn't mean you lose your soul, that literally never happened."

We posted evidence and logic that proves Ki is tied to the mind. In the afterlife, you retain your mind and soul. If you lose your mind, even if your soul existed, would be useless. You can't just dismiss all of that and say "It isn't because it isn't".

Also you have yet to post anything about the actual DB verse and just said that it requires a disregard for cosmology, even though it's shown many times to be otherwise. AND we never actually saw mind-destruction of a being and then cutting to the otherworld to see them so your example falls flat on a concept that's never displayed. Meanwhile, we actually have supporting evidence that the mind is tied to ki with many in-verse examples including the very fact that you retain your mind in the afterlife.

In order to generate Ki, you need to have a mind. Destroying all of someone's Ki would mean destroying their mind. We know beings that die (Lack a physical body) still generate Ki like Goku does with King Kai. Killing all of someone's Ki means that they don't have said Mind. Not a hard concept.

In order to say otherwise, like saying that Ki isn't of the mind but merely "Psychic energy connected to the mind" is, quite honestly, just conjecture with little evidence to back it up. Plus, Occam's Razor. If the author says it's the mind with a bunch of supporting evidence, it's likely the author's word is true.

"Also nobody has ever been reduced to atoms in Dragon Ball since Buu's Regenerationn is explictely on a cellular level."

I don't think anyone is advocating for that level of Regen given this is AT LEAST Low-Godly since they went back to destroy all of Demigra's Ki, meaning if there's any Ki left of Demigra, he'd still come back

 

[Dragomer]

Yes, and when people lose all their Ki they die (See literally every Ki-draining character in Dragon Ball). And then they go to the Afterlife. This Mid-Godly proposal shows a cavalier disregard for the actual cosmology and canon of Dragon Ball for the sake of an upgrade.

Nobody has ever died from ki draining in dragon ball, so nope, nobody is disregarding anything except you when you said being reduced into atom never happened, since the daizenshuu very clearly state otherwise here : https://pm1.narvii.com/6601/96ed6eb1db1895426d7856f87f32021c68f44888_hq.jpg

also nothing ever limited Buu's Regenerationn to cellular level, he even regenerated from smoke on screen and even Cell's Regenerationn goes beyond that according to this scan : https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-.../AAAAAAAATOk/5J6RfEJm1JE/w767-h577-no/145.jpg (it is herm's correction unless i was lied to, if i was, feel free to correct me)

 

[Akreious]

Even if previous regenerations was limited to Cellular level, that's not what we're talking about here. Demigra is explicitly WAY beyond buu so scaling Demigra to Buu's regen because they're both magical makes little to no sense, given Demigra is a master sorcerer while Buu is.... Buu.

 

[Dragomer]

Even if previous regenerations was limited to Cellular level, that's not what we're talking about here. Demigra is explicitly WAY beyond buu so scaling Demigra to Buu's regen because they're both magical makes little to no sense, given Demigra is a master sorcerer while Buu is.... Buu.

I agree that even if that accusation was right, Buu's regen has no bearing on Demigra's regen, they don't even work the same way, so it was not a valid argument even if the claim itself had been true

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Cell's Regenerationn is about cellular level and Buu is about the same. People died from being drained, forgot everyone Cell drained? Nevermind that 19 could kill people by doing it too?

"Reduced to atoms" is 100% hyperbole in this case.

Ki being composed of "Vigor, Courage and Mind" in a Martial Arts context doesn't mean it's your soul. It means it's a energy generated by a combination of your strength, mental state, and emotional state. It isn't literally those things.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

To put it this way:

A being that has lost its soul wouldn't be able to generate Ki. But being unable to generate Ki won't mean that you don't have a soul.

It's just how in the afterlife the disembodied spirits can't generate Ki and fight and they kept Goku's body as a special case so he could train and get stronger.

 

[Dragomer]

Cell's Regenerationn is about cellular level and Buu is about the same. People died from being drained, forgot everyone Cell drained? Nevermind that 19 could kill people by doing it too?
"Reduced to atoms" is 100% hyperbole in this case.

Ki being composed of "Vigor, Courage and Mind" in a Martial Arts context doesn't mean it's your soul. It means it's a energy generated by a combination of your strength, mental state, and emotional state. It isn't literally those things.

My scan about Cell prove otherwise and Buu came back from smoke, so you're wrong on both case, also you're just derailing the thread since it's about Demigra, not Buu and Cell

Cell wasn't just draining their ki, the only thing left from those people was their clothes and his aura had their souls in it at some point (could be a filler though)

C19 never killed anyone with it, he just greatly weakened them, even Yamcha was 'finished off' the classical way

and your claim is 100% unsupported, the daizenshuu, an official source, directly made a statement that disproved your claim that it never happened, you can't headcanon away every statement that aren't convenient to your argument

except that the author litteraly said otherwise and every information we had on it quite litteraly state litteraly that it's those thing

 

[Dragomer]

To put it this way:
A being that has lost its soul wouldn't be able to generate Ki. But being unable to generate Ki won't mean that you don't have a soul.

It's just how in the afterlife the disembodied spirits can't generate Ki and fight and they kept Goku's body as a special case so he could train and get stronger.

except that the spirit in the afterlife can generate ki since they sent their energy for Goku's genkidama against Buu and Goku can use IT to go to King Kai's planete, which require for King Kai to still generate ki

there is litteraly no being at all in dragon ball that doesn't generate ki, that litteraly doesn't exist, which kinda prove you wrong, since non existing being can't have souls

 

[SomebodyData]

Actually, doesn't the Trio de Danger not have ki? I remember them stating something like that in the exhibition match.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That scan doesn' support you and being vaporized isn't even cellular. Sources agree with me.

 

[Dragomer]

Actually, doesn't the Trio de Danger not have ki? I remember them stating something like that in the exhibition match.

Nope, they just can't sensed, it's never said they don't have ki

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

The others are making the most sense

Ryu's arguments are blatently being ignored. Demigra's energy couldn't even be sensed in the afterlife and it was confirmed by multiple characters that he was gone. His body was destroyed, his energy was destroyed, and his essence was destroyed yet he still came back.

All the refutes have literally no back bone/ no evidence to back it up

(Insert the arguments about the mind and soul being related to ki)

 

[Dragomer]

That scan doesn' support you and being vaporized isn't even cellular. Sources agree with me.

my scan perfectly support me, unless you aren't aware of what a nucleus is ?

to be turned into smoke, you'd need to break the atomic bond of each atom so you are right, it's not cellular, it's atomic or even subatomic

you mean the sources that nobody has ever seen and you have never presented ? meanwhile i have two direct scan that directly disprove your claims and prove mine

 

[DragonEmperor23]

no body, no soul, no mind but regening is mid godly

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Except that didn't happen and that's not what key is.

Vaporization isn't even atomization.

 

[Dragomer]

Except that didn't happen and that's not what key is.
Vaporization isn't even atomization.

except it did happen and my scans prove it (i don't really get what you're trying to say didn't happen so i'm guessing you're addressing my scans)

i already explained why you're wrong on that one and vaporization isn't really the same as being turned into smoke, since vaporization is more or less just about water molecule, repeating your disproven statement isn't an argument

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No it's not, you're incorrect. And I wish you good luck on changing the entire site's standard on where vaporization stands.

None of the scans shown by the pro-upgrade side have proven Mid-Godly, they are primarily based on a misinterpretation of how Ki works.

 

[Dragomer]

No it's not, you're incorrect. And I wish you good luck on changing the entire site's standard on where vaporization stands.
None of the scans shown by the pro-upgrade side have proven Mid-Godly, they are primarily based on a misinterpretation of how Ki works.

yes, it is, i'm correct (seriously, are you even trying to argue anymore ? it's getting childish)

i never said anything about vaporization, you brough that term up and i never agreed to it

except they do and you're the only one who has misinterpreted anything, to the point you're trying to argue that the source material is less accurate than your headcanon, for which you have provided no source or evidence, and is a misinterpretation, you're accusing the goddamned source material of misinterpreting how ki works

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I kinda get what is being said.. being "reduced to atoms" is kinda inconsisent...

perhaps one of the best way to way to show proof would be to show scans of soul destruction being profermed with Ki attacks on oppenents of equal level.. correct..?

 

[Dark649]

Actually, doesn't the Trio de Danger not have ki? I remember them stating something like that in the exhibition match.

Thay have ki, but could not be sensed by the other char. Demigra could have Fusionism based on the new Heroes trailer and might scale to Zamasu Super Soul Regenerationn of Xenoverse 2.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Actually, doesn't the Trio de Danger not have ki? I remember them stating something like that in the exhibition match.

Thay have ki, but could not be sensed by the other char. Demigra could have Fusionism based on the new Heroes trailer and might scale to Zamasu Super Soul Regenerationn of Xenoverse 2.

may i ask what Fusionism is..?

 

[SomebodyData]

Fusion @UpgradeMan

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Ah okay. Thank you.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Late getting to this. Anyways @Akrieous

"You seem to be under the impression that Psychic energy is COMPLETELY separate from the Mind. All your examples has stuff like a shower head and water, which has NO relation whatsoever. Psychic Energy is produced from the Mind. The Mind is the production factory. The Psychic Energy is the product. The Mind makes the Product. If there is no product, then there's a problem with the factory or there is no factory to MAKE the product."

Being produced =/= not being a separate thing on its own. And i'll use a better example this time. Say that I am a creator god. I create things. Using my power, I create a ball in my hand. It is my product, my creation. I am the origin on where this ball came from since I created it. Does that instantly mean that the existence of this ball, in any way, is a part of or even related to my own existence? No it doesn't and psychic energy should be treated the same way toward the mind. It comes from the mind yes, but that doesnt mean the mind itself is the psychic energy or has any relation to it. Unless we're going to say brains are just pure mental energy now?

"A Showerhead doesn't PRODUCE water. That's where your examples fail."

Putting words in my mouth, I never said this and my example even dictates so. That is the problem thats going on here. Your thinking because x origin produces y product and lets it flow on, x must equal y as the same thing all-together. It doesn't.

"The fact that they said they destroyed the residual Ki that Demigra left? If there was Residual Ki, Demigra would just come back like he did before. His Ki is "Infectious" that way."

Or that means they effected the origin of Demigra's KI, his mind, so that no more KI would get produced?

"Dude. Blood manipulation users use their own blood as bullets and forms weapons with them all the time. Ultraman, the Japanese Hero, uses the Specium Beam as his finishing attack. His blood is also Specium Energy. He's using his own blood as an attack."

Yes because blood is just that. Blood. They don't turn it into something else as a means of attacking targets. The mind is not pure energy.

"Why is the mind any different? It's only an aspect of Ki and isn't 100% Mind power. What you find absurd has no bearing on what's the author's intent. Author Intent > Your intent. What he wanted was the Mind is an aspect of Ki, not a totally unrelated energy that is produced somewhere else."

Answered the 1st question already. And as for "aspect of KI", that just simply means the minds mental energy is an aspect of KI, not ones own literal mind. Just like how chakra is comprised of a ninja's physical, spiritual and mental energies. Not the whole body, soul and mind. Plus, if what your saying was even remotely true, literally all DB characters would have had mind resistance and mind destruction capabilities since the very start. They don't.

What is displayed >> Author Intent. Sorry.

"Again, correlation."

And again, not the same as equal. That's what your not seeing. And my pipe to water example was to represent the brain/mind flowing the psychic energy.

"The Pipe and water are NOT tied together in your example, which is why I said it's a flawed example. Psychic Energy and the Mind has the relationship of Production Facility and Product, not Pipe and Water."

Okay, still doesnt mean psychic energy and the mind are one in the same. Your acting like the brain can turn itself into energy. Thats not true.

Same with the last part. A source isn't one and the same with it's product. If we did accept this as the standard, a good number of verses here wouldve already fall under it. Digimon's one of the few most detailed verses up-to-date here and even it's Digicore's needed blogs to even consider them to be a Digimon's literal body, mind and soul. DragonBall doesn't get this with just a paragprah of arguments.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Aren't blogs just bigger CRTs?

 

[Akreious]

"I am the origin on where this ball came from since I created it. Does that instantly mean that the existence of this ball, in any way, is a part of or even related to my own existence? No it doesn't and psychic energy should be treated the same way toward the mind. It comes from the mind yes, but that doesnt mean the mind itself is the psychic energy or has any relation to it. Unless we're going to say brains are just pure mental energy now?"

First, I should've said this first, Provide evidence that psychic energy and the like exists in Dragon Ball and it isn't simply the Mind like what Toriyama says. occam's razor, the simplest answer, is that Mind helps form the Ki. You need to provide evidence this isn't so as I and many users has brought up instances of the Mind directly influencing Ki.

Also, yes. Psychic energy is directly related to your mind. You are completely ignoring the fact that the very existence of Psychic Energy confirms the existence of your mind. You're a creator God, and you created things. Your creation is evidence that you exist. If it's your sole purpose to create, but then you stop creating, there's 2 Answers. A) There's a problem with you, like you stopped producing for some reason or you can't or B) The Creator God has Died.

"Putting words in my mouth, I never said this and my example even dictates so. That is the problem thats going on here. Your thinking because x origin produces y product and lets it flow on, x must equal y as the same thing all-together. It doesn't."

Yes. It does. Z is comprised of X+Y. If the composition lacks X, Z cannot be true since it's the combination of X+Y. If X and Y is true then Z will be true since Z is the combination of X and Y.

Ki is comprised of the Body and Mind. If the Ki lacks the Mind or Body (People "Retain" their bodies in the afterlife btw. King Kai is a direct evidence of this) then Ki is negative. Doesn't exist. If there's a Mind and Body, Ki exists.

Ki should be treated less as it's own thing and more of a mixture. It requires many things to come together to become the whole (Ki). You keep thinking that Ki is Psychic Energy or some other thing, and that's okay, you can have your own opinion, but overcomplicating things like this is, in all honesty, downplay. Okay maybe not downplay, but taking the less simple route to get a weaker outcome. And this is after people scolded me for saying Whis can't self-revive because the simplest answer is that he can't.

"Answered the 1st question already. And as for "aspect of KI", that just simply means the minds mental energy is an aspect of KI, not ones own literal mind. Just like how chakra is comprised of a ninja's physical, spiritual and mental energies. Not the whole body, soul and mind. Plus, if what your saying was even remotely true, literally all DB characters would have had mind resistance and mind destruction capabilities since the very start. They don't.

What is displayed >> Author Intent. Sorry. "

1. Didn't answer first question at all

2. You have yet to provide any evidence that mental energy exists rather than literally the mind. Like how do you know that shooting your literal mind at people is harmful to you? How do you know that what your mind is composed of is even finite? Why is it so ridiculous?

3. Chakra is an actual physical thing people has researched, PLUS we don't see what happens to Ninjas that are powerful in the afterlife so it's not applicable to Dragon Ball.

4. Just because someone uses their mind to form Ki doesn't mean they can manipulate their minds or other people's minds. You can manipulate the whole substance, not the stuff inside. Like if you can manipulate NaCl, you can manipulate the mixture by pouring around and stirring it and such. But without other chemicals, you can't directly manipulate the Cl molecules to separate into 2 layers.

"And again, not the same as equal. That's what your not seeing. And my pipe to water example was to represent the brain/mind flowing the psychic energy. "

Except you haven't proved that psychic energy exists, and you are forgetting what correlation means. The existence of one confirms the existence of the other. A lack of one means there's a problem with the other or that the other doesn't exist. Psychic Energy = (Confirms) = The Mind. The Mind is a PRODUCER of Psychic Energy, not a pipe. Your pipe to water example makes no sense because Pipes don't produce the water unlike the Mind with Psychic Energy. Unless you're implying that psychic energy doesn't come from the mind.

"Okay, still doesnt mean psychic energy and the mind are one in the same. Your acting like the brain can turn itself into energy. Thats not true."

From the strict definition of psychic energy, yes. The Mind and Psychic Energy are the same.

I never said anything about a brain. What? The Mind is obviously a metaphysical thing, or else nobody would have sentience in the afterlife.

"Same with the last part. A source isn't one and the same with it's product. If we did accept this as the standard, a good number of verses here wouldve already fall under it. Digimon's one of the few most detailed verses up-to-date here and even it's Digicore's needed blogs to even consider them to be a Digimon's literal body, mind and soul. DragonBall doesn't get this with just a paragprah of arguments."

A source and a product confirms the existence of one another. If I buy a Pocky right now, that confirms the existence of a Pocky Factory. If I don't find a Pocky, theres A) a problem or B) There's no Pocky factory. The source and the product does not have to be the same, but they're still directly linked. That's what you're not understanding. We have direct evidence of correlation between these two things unlike other verses.

Digimon isn't a good fallback here as Ki isn't a Digicore. Digimons and Digicores aren't Dragon Ball. They're not even remotely similar in usage or origin. We haven't seen Digimon in the afterlife, stuff like that.

In short, we have a direct author statement and several instances of the Mind influencing Ki and Ki Output (rage moments anyone?).

And EVEN THEN, this feat would still be Low-Godly due to the fact that they went back to destroy any residual ki Demigra had. This would imply that even if his body was destroyed, they had to get rid of his Ki to get him to stay dead. If his regen was say, High, then they wouldn't go after something like Ki and instead seal off the area to ensure his molecules don't travel elsewhere.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

>SSJRYU's reasonings still being ignored

 

[Akreious]

Hey Kukui, I know we're throwing walls of text at eachother in a super intense super battle of the ages (Yes I needed 2 supers in there), but mind also replying to SSJRyu? It's his video that's being addressed so I feel like as much as I debate and argue, he's the one that should be picked up on about.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

There's nothing to be debated

Demigra died, his essence and energy was destroyed, he couldn't be sensed across the multiverse, yet he came back. It's so simple and straightforward.

It's Low-Godly at the very least

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

From Staff Officer Black to Kid Buu, you couldn't sense their energy once they were destroyed. One would have to reach as high as the stars to assume anyone inbetween was destroyed absolutely on a physical level.

 

[Akreious]

But staff person said it's High at best

 

[Akreious]

"From Staff Officer Black to Kid Buu, you couldn't sense their energy once they were destroyed."

Goku could sense King Kai even after King Kai has died. Kid Buu reincarnated, that's why he couldn't be sensed. Plus Buu was likely condemned to the depths of Hell at least for a time, a place of magic that likely disrupted any attempts to sense Ki (Examples are when Goku can't lock onto people in too much of a crowd since he can't differentiate between people, but is perfectly fine locking onto people like King kai in the afterlife. Amount of something matters in sensing something).

Also Goku isn't much of a good example for sensing given he can't sense Earth from Beerus' planet. His detection clearly has limits unlike Chronoa who has Magic and Time Patroller Trunks who has MUCH more experience than DBZ Buu Saga Goku.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

As explained in his video, Beat killed Demigra completley. Supreme Kai of time said Demigra was dead and that his left over energy had been destroyed. That is being physically destroyed. You die, you get sent to the after life, but he couldn't even be sensed.

I won't bother replying anymore, since it's obvious it's not going to be accepted by staff no matter what happens.

Still waiting for anyone to reply to Ryu