Death of the Endless Possible Upgrade

[TheSandman31]

I believe that Death should be At least High 1-B (for the same reason as Destiny) or maybe even 1-A for the following reasons:

Destiny's At least High 1-B reason is:

"Destiny is also by far the most powerful of The Endless, as everything is a part of him, and he is the only one capable of affecting Lucifer Morningstar in any way, albeit still ultimately meaninglessly to someone of Lucifer's status"

Death can clearly affect Lucifer

.Lucifer while in the Void even admitted that Death is inevitable

• Lucifer himself said that Death is inevitable and that escaping to the Void or going to other Creations isn't cheating Death but only prolonging the inevitable .and that Death is the death of all things

Silk Man: I have cheated the death of all things

'Lucifer:I''''''m sure Death has her own opinion about transaction, postponing the inevitable isn't cheating just stretching the rules a little

• The scan above also implies that Death claimed the Silk Man's Creation which is older than the one Created by the Presence
• Death will claim Destiny at the end of Creation and will lock behind the universe as she leaves
• When Lucifer was stuck in a state between life and death.Death visited Lucifer even though it isn't his time yet.Implying that she will one day claim even Lucifer

"From birth to death.How small our circuits are.How unerringly we find the path that will unmake us.Even we who call ourselves immortal"

• Lucifer was stuck in Death's realm until the next miracle which was when Meleos tricked Elaine into trading her life.

And while Destiny is "older" than Death, we know that there are different versions of Creation as Creation undergoes a cycle of death and rebirth.

At the end of Creation, all Endless will die, except Death

"Even our existences are brief and bounded.None of us will last longer than this version of the universe"

"Except our sister"

This was said by Delirium who we know knows things that not even Destiny knows (In overture she even said that there are ways out of Destiny's Garden)

Death said that once everything ends she will lock everything behind her as she leaves

Death locks the universe behind her as she leaves

This shows that Death isn't limited to Creation as the rest of the Endless are, the Endless are limited to Creation and Destiny is limited by it because he is Creation, they will all die as Creation ends.Except for Death who will still exist even Creation ends (As as stated multile times)


Aside from Death outlasting Creation, there's also the fact that Death is the only Endless that can affect other Creations which Destiny cant

• Destiny's himself doesnt have influence in Lucifers Creation (As Destiny is only the Destiny of the original Creation of the Presence) which is the reason why the Basanos, beings made by the Angel Meleos from the pages of the Book of Destiny, was blinded in Lucifer's Creation
• Aside from that , the end of the Creation of the Presence will be the last page of Destiny's Book while Lucifer's Creation will be unaffected, showing that Destiny's Book doesnt contain Lucifer's Creation

She was also stated to be more than match for Lucifer in willpower

• Death exist in Lucifers Creation and is more than a match for him in willpower

"Even in Lucifers Creation, Death has a job to do.He doesn't like the intrusion but she proves to be more than his match in willpower.When Meleos tricks Elaine into trading her life to save Lucifer's, Death watches it happen and comforts Elaine spirit as it passes into her realm"

She also opened dimensional a rift to ferry Elaine from Lucifer's cosmos to the original cosmos

• Just a reminder of just how impressive this feat is.Only the makers of the universe can open a gate into the other Creations and into the Void, Lucifer needed the Letter of Passage to open the Gate.
• While they were stuck in Elaine's Creation because only Elaine can open a way to the Void. Death can do this freely

I've also found this In Sandman #48 which Death said that:

"Everyone can know what Destiny knows, and more than that"

Then there's this which said that Dream defines reality (which means that Dream is still bounded to Creation), Destiny was outright stated to be limited by existence while Death is only limited by what she will or will not accept

"Because' 'it is the nature of Dreams, and ONLY of Dreams, to define Reality. Destiny is bound to existence''' Death is limited by what she will or will not accept" -The Sandman: Overture

All Endless are bound by rules, except Death

"Your kind is so bounded by your idiot rules...except for your big sister.She does whatever she pleases.She's a cold bitch.That one"


Summary

• Death was confirmed to be inevitable even by Lucifer and escaping to the Void or other Creations won't do anything
• Death can clearly effect Lucifer much more than Destiny does (Lucifer can escape Destiny, while even Lucifer himself accepts/said that Death is inevitable)
• Can easily access other Creations which Destiny, even Lucifer can't easily do
• Unbound by Creation and she will exist even until the end of everything
• Claimed to know more than Destiny does
• While the other Endless are stated to be limited by things that exist in reality, with Destiny bound to Creation, Death was stated to be only limited by what she will or will not accept
• All the other Endless are bounded by rules, except Death

So for the reasons above I believe that Death should be at least High 1-B at minimum but I think she should certainly be 1-A

 

[Sera_EX]

I do support this. I believe we've restricted analysis of DC Cosmology for too long. Then again, I'd just like Matthew Schroeder's opinion first.

 

[TheSandman31]

Thanks.

Yeah, we should wait for Matthews input, he's the DC/Marvel guy

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

At least High 1-B I think is fair. 1-A is too vague.

 

[Sera_EX]

Okie.

 

[TheSandman31]

Ok, but wasn't the reason we downgraded the Endless because they don't transcend Creation?That's the case for the other Endless but not for Death

The other Endless should remain at High 1-B but I believe Death deserve an upgrade.It's clear that she isn't only the concept of death of Creations but for beings as powerful as Lucifer himself.

I also found this which Death said that there's no cosmic balance of life or death, as everything will eventually die .Meaning that Death claiming people only if it's their time to die isn't because she is bound by some rules, she can kill those she will claim anytime she wants. And as the scan above shows Death is the only Endless not bound by any rules or limits (her only limit was stated to be only what she will not or will accept).

That plus her crazy range, ability to exist in other Creations, and open paths to other Creation which not even Michael or Lucifer can do.

But the most impressive I think is that Death's is inescapable even if you're in the Void as the Presence's reach isn't even that wide

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay. Saying that Death is stronger than the Presence is wrong. She is far weaker than Lucifer, she admits it herself that she has no grasp on him.

Furthermore she is a part of Destiny like all other Endless, the thing is that as that is a very wide concept, it can apply even to beings hierarchically above her.

Also, saying that affecting other Creations is something Lucifer and Michael can't do? Lucifer destroyed a multiverse of Creations with his mere glare.

Death is not qualitatively superior to all other Endless in such a way. She can't touch Lucifer and he'll drop die, or will him to death.

But as he can die, she will be there when he does. It's a very metaphysical thing. It does not scale to her power.

 

[TheSandman31]

No, I didn't say that she is stronger than the Presence, I said her range is superior to the Presence.The Presence's omniscience and omnipresence don't extend further into the Void, that was stated multiple times while Death omnipresence extended into the Void and to other Multiverses older than the Presence himself, there's no escaping her

Same with Destiny, the Book of Destiny contains only the single current version of Creation, his book does not contain the past versions of Creation as the Endless aside from Death dies after a version of the universe ends while Death doesn't and her existing in Lucifers Creation already means that she is in some sense outside Destiny.There are things outside Destiny, Delirium even mentioned that there are paths that lead outside his garden Destiny is bound to reality, reality that Deat will outlive while Death was said to be only limited by what she will or will not accept


No, I didn't say that Lucifer or Michael cant affect other Creation, just that its difficult for them to go to the Void to affect it in the first place hence why Lucifer needed the Letter of Passage to create his multiverse in the Void and why only Elaine can open a gate to the Void when she accidentally created her Creation.Its made very clear that only the Creator God of a Creation can make a gate to the Void when they are within their Creation

Her weakness should also be removed or reworded

 

[Sera_EX]

Matt is correcto.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There's no escaping Death on a metaphorical sense, you are taking it far too literal. Even people stronger than Death can die, but that does not mean she is the most powerful character in DC.

 

[TheSandman31]

Even if that's the case then Death should have irrelevant range, that's should be reasonable.If you look at my comments above I'm even talking about Deaths AP being superior to anyone, I'm talking about range as her range is ridiculous, even beyond the Presence, Destiny or Lucifer

Just range, at least High 1-B with Irrelevant range.

 

[TheSandman31]

If even that is still not ok, then I don't know.Because it's very clear that her reach and influence is greater than what the Presence or Destiny has ever shown. So range, even if you don't accept her as being outerversal, her range being higher than the Presence or Lucifer is something that cant be denied

So At least High 1-B then?

How about her range?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

At least High 1-B and Irrelevant Range is fine.

 

[TheSandman31]

Ok, thanks, can you make the changes? or do I have to tell Antvasima about what we have discussed here? I remember him saying that he has some issues with a high 1-B with Outerversal/irrelevant range

This basically makes Death unkillable to High 1-Bs or maybe even to 1-As, so I think I'm fine with this.

 

[Sera_EX]

>Irrelevant range

W...what?

 

[TheSandman31]

If Death isn't going to be 1-A then she should have at least irrelevant range.

Death is inescapable even if you went to the Void, or to other Creations in the Void making her range greater than what the Presence the or any of the Archangels have ever shown.

That plus Death claimed the Creation of silk man, which was stated to be much older than the Presence himself

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Death has Irrelevant range, that is fact. She reaches across multiple High 1-B constructs and the void beyond.

 

[TheSandman31]

Also, shouldn't Death get solid High-Godly regen for surviving the end of Creation? (the same reason for why the Crimson Kings has High-Godly)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No because she doesn't die and reform.

 

[TheSandman31]

Ok

 

[LordWhis]

I agree with Atleast High 1-B, Possibly/Likely 1-A. Potentially even higher if it's proved that all of Presence's creation is just an illusion or an insignificance to death & she is infinitely above it.

She was stated to trump & define all of existence which should put her at 1a or even higher depending in your perspective.

She has been portrayed as the strongest endless, effortlessly killing dream & intimidating the furies who feared none of the other endless. So Atleast 1-B is definitely fine.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with Matthew's conclusions.

 

[TheSandman31]

Also, I think her weakness should be reworded or removed as she seems to be exempt from the rules that the Endless follows as you can see from these scans

• Don't need permission to travel to the realms of other Endless
• Nobody can make her do anything she doesnt want to
• Scare off the Kindly Ones
• Is only limited by what she will or will not accept

"'Because' it is the nature of Dreams, and ONLY of Dreams, to define Reality. Destiny is bound to 'existence'''. Death is limited by what she will or will not accept" -The Sandman: Overture

• Deaths the only Endless who doesn't follow the rules

"Your kind is so bounded by your idiot rules...except for your big sister.She does whatever she pleases.She's a cold bitch.That one"