Dead By Daylight Killer Speed Revision

[SheevShezarrine]

Currently, Killers are rated as Superhuman for being able to outspeed athletes in a fearful sprint whilst walking. This is inaccurate, for various reasons.
For the most basic reason, not all Killers walk. Some levitate, and there's really no indicator outside of in-game speed ratings to tell how fast or slow and how serious or casual they may be. And there are others still, such as my main, Huntress, that jog.

Second, the Survivors aren't being outran while sprinting; they're visibly jogging, and when they do sprint (see the perks Sprint Burst, Adrenaline, Lithe, Balanced Landing, and Smash Hit), they outspeed the Killers by quite a significant degree.

Not even gonna bring up in-game running speed because 4.0m/s (Below Average Human) for Survivors is kinda ****** ridiculous, considering none of them have obvious physical impairments, and many are even clearly athletic.

In conclusion, given the 2 conflicting pieces of evidence against Killers being Superhuman (at least outright), their base speed should be downgraded to Athletic Human for being able to catch athletic humans running a medium pace, whilst the Killers are moving at a more casual pace, but being unable to catch them when they are at a full sprint. For Killers with a rushdown ability, however, such as Hillbilly and Oni, who are quite easily able to outspeed sprint perks, they can get an "at least Peak Human, possibly Superhuman" rating for their rush abilities

 

[SamanPatou]

Makes sense, I agree.

And forgive me for the semi-off topic, but how accurate is it to scale every killer's LS to Philip Ojomo? Iirc there's no indication all killers are comparable in that aspect.

 

[Peppersalt43]

And forgive me for the semi-off topic, but how accurate is it to scale every killer's LS to Philip Ojomo? Iirc there's no indication all killers are comparable in that aspect.

They can all lift survivors who are capable of eventually breaking free from The Wraith's grasp which makes the survivors comparable to The Wraith's LS which in turn makes the other killers comparable

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Not very off-topic, scaling the Killers to each other in all aspects is a rather unfounded assumption. The only feats they share are blockade busting and running down Survivors

 

[Peppersalt43]

Not very off-topic, scaling the Killers to each other in all aspects is a rather unfounded assumption. The only feats they share are blockade busting and running down Survivors

Uh... What about lifting and holding survivors?

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Perhaps, but it's a bit tenuous given that the wiggle animation shows the survivor flailing and smacking the killer, so they're not using pure LS to escape. The wiggle action being changed to skill checks instead of the previous button mashing (skill checks being done for dexterous actions such as repairing, healing, and DS), as well as the Killer being stunned by a successful escape also implies striking is doing the bulk of the work.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Perhaps, but it's a bit tenuous given that the wiggle animation shows the survivor flailing and smacking the killer, so they're not using pure LS to escape. The wiggle action being changed to skill checks instead of the previous button mashing (skill checks being done for dexterous actions such as repairing, healing, and DS), as well as the Killer being stunned by a successful escape also implies striking is doing the bulk of the work.

So... Downscale LS?

 

[SamanPatou]

Not really, apparently the survivors free themselves with a combination of strikes and skill, let alone the fact they can fail and are still clearly inferior to the killers.

Add the fact that only Philip Ojomo performs a Class K feat and the consistency is thrown out of the window.

All in all, I'd say the killers can be Peak Human/Superhuman for being able to restrain even athletic people after lifting them, then we go case by case with those killers who use telekinesis or such.

 

[KieranH10]

Anything noteworthy about the Survivors resisting the giant Spider Claw thingies while they're hooked? Would that warrant anything?

 

[SamanPatou]

Iirc those things try to suck their soul, and after awhile they are dragged into a portal.
I don't think it can be quantified as anything.

Still, the fact they keep struggling and can move and walk after being hooked should be a nice stamina feat for all of them.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Another thing I think should be brought up is that more Survivors need profiles, there's lots of them that are way more qualified than Dwight lol. Ash can shrug off hits from Killers if his Mettle of Man perk activates, David can recover from the dying state through sheer force of will with No Mither, Mikaela has magic, and Jake has insane pain tolerance

 

[SamanPatou]

Totally, they deserve a profile even for just being there.
They don't have one because they have less charme than the killers, and no one bothered working on them.

Also, I've asked a couple of calc members and lifting the survivors with ease and have them struggle to break free from the grip can be classified as superhuman.

 

[KieranH10]

The pallets that the Survivors push over could be worth something ig.

Just tryna think of feats off the top of my head.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Totally, they deserve a profile even for just being there.
They don't have one because they have less charme than the killers, and no one bothered working on them.

Also, I've asked a couple of calc members and lifting the survivors with ease and have them struggle to break free from the grip can be classified as superhuman.

Agreed, someone like David is definitely around 200 pounds, and casually lifting him one-handed despite him being uneven weight and resisting is definitely in the realm of Superhuman

 

[SheevShezarrine]

The pallets that the Survivors push over could be worth something ig.

Just tryna think of feats off the top of my head.

Not really, they're not overly large, and are being pulled down from a relatively unstable upward position. And with how fast they do it, the numbers we could get from it would be more applicable to AP

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Also in the topic of Jake, he has a perk that allows him to resist screaming when hit by The Doctor's Madness AOE, and all of the Survivors can overcome maxed-out madness with enough time to focus and calm down, as well as continue to function despite it and identify hallucinations resulting from it. This Madness Manipulation is also achieved through directly attacking the brain with electroshocks, so them being able to overcome it is some pretty decent Madness Manipulation resistance

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Plus, Doctor's Mori kills Survivors by affecting their brain, either by driving them mad or bursting their brain cells with an overload of electricity. Either way, he should get Durability Negation for this

 

[SheevShezarrine]

All told, I think the verse needs some sweeping general cleanup and revisions, as well as a need for some expansion. I may make a more general CRT in the near future. In the meantime, are the changes proposed in the original post accepted?

 

[Abstractions]

Second, the Survivors aren't being outran while sprinting; they're visibly jogging, and when they do sprint (see the perks Sprint Burst, Adrenaline, Lithe, Balanced Landing, and Smash Hit), they outspeed the Killers by quite a significant degree.

Nitpick, but the perks are evidently supernatural, the survivor with Adrenaline heals with the usage of the perk.

Secondly, survivors using "sprint burst" have no animation change, they don't begin to sprint and simply receive a movement increase.

It also just sounds incredibly counter-intuitive to jog away from a threat against your life instead of running as fast as you are able.

dd the fact that only Philip Ojomo performs a Class K feat and the consistency is thrown out of the window.

Killers are all altered by the Entity and share all their perks through the bloodweb, including Killers like Trapper who's signature perks include Brutal Strength. Suggesting that they are comparable to each other isn't unfounded especially when you consider Philip performed his feat before being altered at all. He was just some normal guy and not a supernatural killer.

So... Downscale LS?

Sheev's comment was suggesting that the strike and stun is doing most of the work, that wouldn't make a claim against LS.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea because when it was done I was equating the walk speed to being Superhuman by real world standards, but not speed standards here, which is the mistake. But this complaint seems a bit misguided to me and relies on animation differences where even survivors lack animation change in what he suggests to be an actual sprint. It feels like cherry-picking.

This isn't even making commentary on killers who do actually sprint like Hillbilly, who still end up faster than a Sprint Burst or Adrenaline survivor.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Makes sense, I agree.

And forgive me for the semi-off topic, but how accurate is it to scale every killer's LS to Philip Ojomo? Iirc there's no indication all killers are comparable in that aspect.

Going back to this for a sec, I think Killers that have been significantly amped, either directly by the Entity or via The Blight (the metaphysical disease plaguing The Realm), should be comparable or even upscale. This including The Blight (the Killer), The Oni, and Blighted versions of the Killers.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Nitpick, but the perks are evidently supernatural, the survivor with Adrenaline heals with the usage of the perk.

Secondly, survivors using "sprint burst" have no animation change, they don't begin to sprint and simply receive a movement increase.

It also just sounds incredibly counter-intuitive to jog away from a threat against your life instead of running as fast as you are able.


Killers are all altered by the Entity and share all their perks through the bloodweb, including Killers like Trapper who's signature perks include Brutal Strength. Suggesting that they are comparable to each other isn't unfounded especially when you consider Philip performed his feat before being altered at all. He was just some normal guy and not a supernatural killer.


Sheev's comment was suggesting that the strike and stun is doing most of the work, that wouldn't make a claim against LS.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea because when it was done I was equating the walk speed to being Superhuman by real world standards, but not speed standards here, which is the mistake. But this complaint seems a bit misguided to me and relies on animation differences where even survivors lack animation change in what he suggests to be an actual sprint. It feels like cherry-picking.

This isn't even making commentary on killers who do actually sprint like Hillbilly, who still end up faster than a Sprint Burst or Adrenaline survivor.

The in-game functions of Adrenaline are actually fairly true to life, what with increasing speed, dulling pain, reducing fatigue/fighting off sleepiness, and temporarily ignoring exhaustion whilst also later causing it

In addition, not all perks are evidently supernatural, Dead Hard for instance is just a dodge at its core.

And running at medium pace is not outright counterintuitive to survival, remaining level-headed and pacing oneself can be just as important

I also specified in the OP that Killers with a rushdown ability can keep their Superhuman speed rating

As for Killers growing stronger with perks/use of the Bloodweb, that much is objective fact, but I'm not fully sold on the idea that it proves cross-scaling between Killers. The Entity gives different boons to different Killers and is even implied to play favorites and inversely have Killers that it dislikes. Evan Macmillan, for instance, is implied by The Observer in Tome 1256 to be at least somewhat disloyal to The Entity, and his base outfit heavily implies that he's been extensively tortured for it.

In short, there's not much aside from shared perks that suggests the Killers cross-scale, as their powers and approaches vary quite significantly and The Entity is likely to grant and withhold power according to it's own whim.

 

[Abstractions]

The in-game functions of Adrenaline are actually fairly true to life, what with increasing speed, dulling pain, reducing fatigue/fighting off sleepiness, and temporarily ignoring exhaustion whilst also later causing it

Except dulling pain isn't what Adrenaline does, it's what Iron Will does.

Adrenaline allows a survivor who was already bleeding out on the floor to essentially escape death entirely, it's a heal, not something fully based in reality.

In addition, not all perks are evidently supernatural, Dead Hard for instance is just a dodge at its core.

Yet on the opposite side of the spectrum, perks like Distortion and Inner Strength point to the supernatural.

And running at medium pace is not outright counterintuitive to survival, remaining level-headed and pacing oneself can be just as important

In the event of a chase and subject to fear, being level headed becomes difficult.

I also specified in the OP that Killers with a rushdown ability can keep their Superhuman speed rating

That's fine, but I was more or less saying that killers should have different speed ratings to cover the fact that they are indeed slower when they walk, just that in the event that they run they are Superhuman like with Hillbilly and his sprint, not just exclusively rushdowns.

It's in character for them to stalk and walk, but it's not as if they are completely restricted to it, like most slashers.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Except dulling pain isn't what Adrenaline does, it's what Iron Will does.

Adrenaline allows a survivor who was already bleeding out on the floor to essentially escape death entirely, it's a heal, not something fully based in reality.

I referred to dulling pain in the sense that Adrenaline allows them to fight through critical injuries and thus exit the dying state. Since Adrenaline is an end-of-match perk that activates in tandem with the exit gates, it's meant to be used in a short timeframe, which is congruent with real-life fight-or-flight/hysterical strength. In addition, adrenaline surges of such intensity as found in live-or-die scenarios are capable of powering one through excruciating pain, massive trauma/blood loss, and frequently lethal injury, such as when Aron Ralston persevered through cutting off a significant portion of his own pinned arm.

Yet on the opposite side of the spectrum, perks like Distortion and Inner Strength point to the supernatural.

Correct, and I don't recall disagreeing.

In the event of a chase and subject to fear, being level headed becomes difficult

And yet can be necessary, and there is precedent in the game for Survivors prioritizing calm and level-headedness, such as Jake's Iron Will perk stemming from his use of meditation. In addition, high-level Survivor play hinges on quick, clear thinking.

That's fine, but I was more or less saying that killers should have different speed ratings to cover the fact that they are indeed slower when they walk, just that in the event that they run they are Superhuman like with Hillbilly and his sprint, not just exclusively rushdowns.

It's in character for them to stalk and walk, but it's not as if they are completely restricted to it, like most slashers.

DBD is in large part an homage to the slasher genre and it's tropes and conventions, if any slasher characters were to be inescapably locked to a certain speed due to such tropes, a lot of DBD Killers would certainly be among them.

 

[Abstractions]

I referred to dulling pain in the sense that Adrenaline allows them to fight through critical injuries and thus exit the dying state. Since Adrenaline is an end-of-match perk that activates in tandem with the exit gates, it's meant to be used in a short timeframe, which is congruent with real-life fight-or-flight/hysterical strength. In addition, adrenaline surges of such intensity as found in live-or-die scenarios are capable of powering one through massive blood loss/normally lethal injury, such as when Aron Ralston persevered through cutting off a significant portion of his own pinned arm.

It still functions in a supernatural sense as it performs an impossible heal by real life standards. The fact of the matter is that Adrenaline isn't true to life with that in mind alone, as fighting through massive blood loss and actually being relieved of it are entirely different.

In addition, high-level Survivor play hinges on quick, clear thinking.

At the whims of the player themselves, yes. The necessity of jogging in a chase against a gaining killer in reality however is highly questionable, there's no benefit to letting yourself get caught and the main goal is to gain distance to prevent this, it'd almost be intentional sabotage.

if any slasher characters were to be inescapably locked to a certain speed due to such tropes

Which luckily enough, most slashers aren't intrinsically locked to such, including licensed killers already included in the roster.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

it'd almost be intentional sabotage.

Even more so is improper use of exhaustion perks, with the exhaustion status effect ofc being the game's equivalent to gassing yourself out irl. Once again, pacing and strategy is the more important thing, especially when ultimately there is no escaping, no safe place to flee to until the exits are open, and while the Survivors are by no means moving slowly, they're definitely not spending the entire trial or chase in a dead sprint

 

[Abstractions]

Even more so is improper use of exhaustion perks

This would be uncontroversial contextually if the events were perceived as real and not a game, so I'd frankly have to disagree with you here.

the Survivors are by no means moving slowly, they're definitely not spending the entire trial or chase in a dead sprint

I didn't equate running to a dead sprint, just that suggesting they are jogging the whole time is ridiculous. Frankly, we agree here.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

This would be uncontroversial contextually if the events were perceived as real and not a game, so I'd frankly have to disagree with you here.


I didn't equate running to a dead sprint, just that suggesting they are jogging the whole time is ridiculous. Frankly, we agree here.

Except whiffing with an exhaust perk and getting saddled with the cooldown is still the survivor essentially self-sabotaging, and as I said the exhaustion status effect is basically the game equivalent of actual exhaustion experienced from cardio exertion. And what do you necessarily mean by "perceived as real and not a game"? Are you arguing that it's purely game mechanics? In that case I disagree, it's something the characters are actually experiencing that's being expressed as a mechanic, it's not something that's irreconcilable with the actual canon and logic of the game and is there just for the sake of gameplay, as seen with the examples cited on the wiki's gameplay mechanics page. A game for The Entity. Meh, kinda, but not really. The Entity requires it for sustenance, the closest you could get to calling it a game is describing it as dinner and a show. For the Killers? Depends on their outlook. For The Twins, for instance, they've been manipulated to perceive the Survivors as a threat, whereas for The Trickster? Definitely doing it for the kicks. Frankly we may need to agree to disagree.

Okay, good. So are the changes in the OP acceptable, cuz this thread has gone off-topic for long enough, and the extra stuff brought up needs to be saved for a more general CRT.

 

[Abstractions]

And what do you necessarily mean by "perceived as real and not a game"? Are you arguing that it's purely game mechanics?

No, I'm most certainly arguing from the self-preservation of the individual indicating that not attempting to create as much distance as possible as fast as you can is self-sabotage, not that exhaustion is game mechanics. The idea of exhausting oneself isn't strictly the first thing the individual focuses on and it's rather self-preservation, hence why I think your argument is uncontroversial and I disagree with it.

Okay, good. So are the changes in the OP acceptable, cuz this thread has gone off-topic for long enough

Changing the speed is fine but I'm telling you it's coming from a misguided place, simply put. If your argument is "they aren't sprinting" that's fine, because the pages don't say that, this is your OP statement:

Currently, Killers are rated as Superhuman for being able to outspeed athletes in a fearful sprint whilst walking.

The Trapper's page says this:
"Speed: Superhuman (Killers possess the speed to outpace trained athletes in a fearful run by simply walking after them)"

Argue semantics if you want but a run is not a sprint, just as a run is not a jog, which is where I disagreement lies. When I say that I agree with you I'm agreeing that they aren't sprinting, because that's not what the pages say or should say, my disagreement lies in downplaying the action by calling it jogging because it's counter-intuitive in a real chase with a killer.

The only thing I believe that was off-topic this whole time was the LS discussion.

My preference in the speed revision is to list them as they walk and a "possibly" to dictate where they'd be should they decide to run, it was all relevant to the conversation.

So we both ultimately agree speed should change, just for different reasons, it'd be up to others to decide their preference there.