DCAU CRT (Mainly Luthor focused.)

[Soldier_Blue]

What do you think about this?

I could have sworn I already commented here and agreed to OP's proposals.

 

[Antvasima]

No, that seems to have been another thread, but it is easy to lose track at times.

 

[JohnConquest1]

No I mean what I wrote because for a good chunk of STAS and JL he already had Brainiac inside of him. Even as he was dying of the radiation induced poisoning. The Warsuit itself was specifically built to actually take advantage of his poisoning by expelling Kryptonite. As I said Brainiac cured his Kryptonite caner, the Warsuit was confiscated from him, and he no longer has Brainiac in him. Hence the need for a second base form.

 

[Antvasima]

Aha. So you will keep an initial key for before he had Brainiac inside of him as well?

 

[JohnConquest1]

There really isn't much to work with before he got Brainiac. All we see him do prior is some working out. Scaling Pre to Post Braniac Lex also wouldn't work as Brainiac altered Lex's physical body to such a degree that he, someone likely in his mid to late 30s, was left with the body of a physically adept teenager, as described by Dr. Hamilton

Unknown, at most 9-A, would be what I would give a Pre Brainiac Lex, but again he never fights in that form.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. The first two key titles should probably be modified for better clarity regarding what they mean though.

 

[Js250476]

The OP looks fine to me.

 

[JohnConquest1]

It's going to be some time before I can finish the Luthor page.
If anyone wants to add the more minor additions I say go for it.
Should also ask what's everyone's thoughts on the speed stuff that's been brought up?

 

[Fireld]

Should also ask what's everyone's thoughts on the speed stuff that's been brought up?

That would be great

 

[Fireld]

@JohnConquest1 Thanks!
But why are feats like; Star Sapphire(who beams are equal to GL), Blight's radiation blast or Batman reflecting a laser with mirror; missing? Or feats from my comment in the Calc Request Thread; the Livewire speed statements are important imp.
I made a grammar error in feat no.7 at the start of the 4th sentence, I forgot to write "mind" in "keep in mind" and wrote just "keep in" instead.

 

[JohnConquest1]

My bad I'll update the OP when I get the chance.

 

[Antvasima]

What is left to do here?

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Why is 'BrainiLex' Class T? Being much stronger than guys in the Class M range doesn't justify that.

 

[JohnConquest1]

Why is 'BrainiLex' Class T? Being much stronger than guys in the Class M range doesn't justify that.

That'll be fixed. Theres some other abilities I'm going to outright remove because there no reason for them to be present.

What is left to do here?

Discuss the speed related proposals and what was submitted to the calc request thread.

I've updated the OP to include some stuff I missed earlier. Sorry about that. Like I said the Lex page is going to be a slow process. I'll leave a link to my sandbox just show what I've done so far but its going to take some time to get the page to where I really want it. I'm essentially going to use tabbers to separate each key on the page. Giving each tabber its own little profile as it were. Doing it any other way would I feel would leave the page looking too cluttered.

 

[Hellbeast]

I feel like Speed should be it’s own thread personally

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also to add to this, we should downgrade Movie Superman's AP

Moon level+ (His power should be comparable to his durability)

That's not an actual AP justification.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he can harm characters such as Darkseid, who can harm him in turn.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Darkseid was dead by the time the movie came out.

It was originally decided that since its an older Superman that no one scales to him, and that since he got weaker when he was in Batman Beyond he just went to his previous tier. As such no one can harm him so his AP doesn't upscale.

Or if it does then we need to upgrade multiple people to 5-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted. In that case I trust your sense of judgement. Superman does traditionally have roughly comparable striking strength and durability in this continuity though, so it would make sense if both grew in proportion to each other.

 

[Qawsedf234]

though, so it would make sense if both grew in proportion to each other.

I thought we've decided for awhile now that we don't scale AP to durability without a feat or a scaling chain to support that.

 

[Antvasima]

You are probably correct. Would "Unknown, possibly Moon level" be acceptable?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'd say either his previous tier or just Unknown. If he never hurts himself with his punch or fights someone capable of physically harming him without hax then there's just no reasons to include a moon rating.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[Hellbeast]

Darkseid was dead by the time the movie came out.

He was sealed within the Source Wall alongside Luthor, which he may or may not have escaped from (Earth 12 says this but that’s a very dodgy continuity)

It was originally decided that since its an older Superman that no one scales to him, and that since he got weaker when he was in Batman Beyond he just went to his previous tier. As such no one can harm him so his AP doesn't upscale.

This I never got
Either decide the 5-C is an outlier (imo the better option) or just scale Beyond Supes to it; there’s no reason to assume he got weaker

Or if it does then we need to upgrade multiple people to 5-C.

This definitely comes under the separate thread for AP idea but I recall some decently powerful statements out there

I'd say either his previous tier or just Unknown. If he never hurts himself with his punch or fights someone capable of physically harming him without hax then there's just no reasons to include a moon rating.

We could probably just roll it in with JLU since Fatal Five iirc takes place somewhere near the end of that era (if not after the show outright)

Again that’s a very different conversation from this thread

 

[Qawsedf234]

Either decide the 5-C is an outlier (imo the better option) or just scale Beyond Supes to it; there’s no reason to assume he got weaker

I always said it was an outlier, but was outvoted in the thread. Its just that the AP change was never implemented for some reason.

Again that’s a very different conversation from this thread

I thought it could be included since its a general CRT and the rating isn't correct as is.

 

[JohnConquest1]

With the 5-C thing I'd say wait until the Amazo comic comes out. Not because it's amazo but because it'll involve apokalips

 

[Qawsedf234]

With the 5-C thing I'd say wait until the Amazo comic comes out. Not because it's amazo but because it'll involve apokalips

If we're keeping that then we don't need to wait, just get an updated calc of this feat

 

[JohnConquest1]

That's not a DCAU comic though.
I know DC says Earth 12 is DCAU but it isn't.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I know DC says Earth 12 is DCAU but it isn't.

I feel like that's a contradictory statement there, but I guess that's for another thread.

 

[JohnConquest1]

If I had more time to explain it then I would but 12 muddies too much, more so than the DCAUs relationship with comics is already muddied.

 

[JohnConquest1]

If we're going to talk comics Dini, Timm, and Templeton are the continuity gold standard.

 

[Hellbeast]

I always said it was an outlier, but was outvoted in the thread. Its just that the AP change was never implemented for some reason.

Oh yeah that’s weird then ngl

I thought it could be included since its a general CRT and the rating isn't correct as is.

I’d agree but still this thread felt more pinpointed on BrainiLuthor rather then a verse wide discussion of the tiering and speed like this seems to be

With the 5-C thing I'd say wait until the Amazo comic comes out. Not because it's amazo but because it'll involve apokalips

and supposedly the Multiverse which might have big implications (especially if Amazo is interacting with Multiversal concepts and shit)

If I had more time to explain it then I would but 12 muddies too much, more so than the DCAUs relationship with comics is already muddied.

yeah Earth 12 references the DCAU but makes no damn sense considering how many things don’t line up

The Watchtower Database has a dope video summarising why. I definitely think if we include them they should get their own pages (maybe with a note mentioning this) because they’re basically their own thing at this point

I’m fine with using stuff like B:TAC, Infinity and maybe the older Batman and Superman Adventures if they hold up tho (I do believe Etrigan is mentioned to have already met Bruce because of the comics so maybe the older ones can be secondary canon?)

EDIT: Here's the vid about Earth 12

 

[Antvasima]

Comics based on cartoons recurrently do not follow the same continuity, even if they claim to do so.

 

[Hellbeast]

Comics based on cartoons recurrently do not follow the same continuity, even if they claim to do so.

B:TAC is literally written by Paul Dini, one of the minds behind the show

 

[JohnConquest1]

Again to comment on the Earth 12 thing, I know DC has said Earth 12 is the DCAU Earth but pretty much everything undoubtedly canon to the DCAU really makes that look like a headass call thats worth ignoring entirely. Its like they made a big announcement that Earth 12 was the definitive for real DCAU Earth when in actuality it already had more continuity holes poked in it than swiss cheese.

I'll also take this time to reiterate what I said about WD, they're like one of the very few headcanonish fanon sources that should be more seriously considered, as they regularly interview and interact with several of the creative talent behind more recent and legacy works. So much so that it honestly wouldn't surprise me if a creator came out and said they sourced them for something in a sourception kinda ordeal.

Personally I'm fine with B:TAC, and the tie in movie comics being considered here, even if B:TAC's overall story telling quality personally leads me to dislike it. Essentially everything related to or that has come out as its own original project since the Harley movie should be open to considered, and evaluated as canon.

I wanna say with the first two points, that the DCAU is a very extreme exception due to how mishandled it's been by DC for the past 15 odd years now.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Do we accept Batman Beyond 2.0?

 

[Hellbeast]

Again to comment on the Earth 12 thing, I know DC has said Earth 12 is the DCAU Earth but pretty much everything undoubtedly canon to the DCAU really makes that look like a headass call thats worth ignoring entirely. Its like they made a big announcement that Earth 12 was the definitive for real DCAU Earth when in actuality it already had more continuity holes poked in it than swiss cheese.

Forgive me if I’m wrong but I actually think they list it’s comic appearance as the first appearance of Earth 12 (compare this to Earth 10 that just mentions the show for Young Justice as the first appearance of that Earth)

I'll also take this time to reiterate what I said about WD, they're like one of the very few headcanonish fanon sources that should be more seriously considered, as they regularly interview and interact with several of the creative talent behind more recent and legacy works. So much so that it honestly wouldn't surprise me if a creator came out and said they sourced them for something in a sourception kinda ordeal.

Plus creatives like Monica Cubina do seem to note their input which isninterestig

I definitely think they should take a backseat to more offical sources but I think they can be used as a decent resource

Personally I'm fine with B:TAC, and the tie in movie comics being considered here, even if B:TAC's overall story telling quality personally leads me to dislike it. Essentially everything related to or that has come out as its own original project since the Harley movie should be open to considered, and evaluated as canon.

Yeah I’m orettty good with them being secondary canon; canon until contradicted (kinda like our treatment of the GOW novels)

I do know the Freeze arc of Gotham Adventures probably isn’t a thing since his wife is dead when that comic says she’s alive tho

I wanna say with the first two points, that the DCAU is a very extreme exception due to how mishandled it's been by DC for the past 15 odd years now.

Yeah it’s been mostly dormant up until Batman and Harley Quinn came out

 

[Antvasima]

B:TAC is literally written by Paul Dini, one of the minds behind the show

Okay. Then that one should probably be fine, yes.

 

[JohnConquest1]

New comic is out.
a bit of blur on it but,

AMAZO pops some "Solar System" destroying missiles out of existence.

Jon has planetary to possibly Galactic ranged telepathy.

 

[Hellbeast]

I'd say we should make a Discussion Thread about the DCAU