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Dc speed feat.

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Going back to the comic and earlier arguments, it's more than likely that Wally was running back in time rather than going forward to the reborn universe.

First, the shift of the universe to the white of entropy in bubble like shapes is the same as when Wally runs home. The Big Bang in DC is traditionally seen as one huge explosion since as seen in COIE, Zero Hour, and the Imperiex War. He's running back before the degradation of the universe to white entropy.

Additionally, Jesse says to Jay that Wally is on his way home through the time stream.

Max also says that Wally broke through the Speed Barrier AND into the speed force.

Wally went back in time, into the speed force to get Linda, not a different version of Linda, and back home. If he went forward to the next loop and everything played out the same, there would have been 2 Linda's in the speed force.

It would be a weird way to go for the author to have Flash leave all his friends and family to go to a new universe with copies of them instead of going back.
 
Firestorm, I think you have misinterpreted my point from above. I was never suggesting that Wally ran into the next universe and met up with everybody again. That part about the universe looping back into itself and replaying everything a second time was just me giving further context about the concept being discussed and how DC has explored it in the past.

The argument is as follows: Wally continued running forward, accelerated into the Speed Force, retrieved Linda, and went home. This is demonstrated by things like Wallyever once stopping and turning around, the entropy light of the Big Bang clearly flashing behind him, and Wally talking about witnessing the universe "explode with life all over again" as a giant DNA coil hurls from the white flash. It is incredibly unlikely that this was a portrayal of Wally suddenly running the opposite direction from the straight line he had been running in for the last three pages as all the narration describing a new universe's formation happens right in front of him.

Jesse Quick's comments to Jay are pure guesswork. They know the Black Flash is defeated, so she thinks Wally is returning home through the timestream, because what else would he do? It's an educated guess. The truth is that she doesn't know if he's running back through the timestream, breaking through the Speed Barrier, or running forward eve further into the future to start a new life as Elvis. She is just saying what she suspects Wally would do after winning. Max Mercury, who can sense the Speed Force and what happens inside it, responds by claiming that Wally just jumped into the Speed Force instead, which was thought to be impossible to return from. That's when Wally arrives back in the present, carrying Linda. Max's comments then explain in shock that Wally must have dived into the Speed Force, grabbed Linda, and reemerged here- a feat thought nearly impossible at the time.

Wally's journey looked like this: Run through the timestream -> Emerge at the end of the universe, where Death no longer exists -> Accelerate again until you break the Speed Barrier -> Retrieve Linda -> Escape the Speed Force -> Emerge home
 
Wait, since when did speedsters have to run the opposite direction in order to travel back in time?
 
That's always how the timestream has been portrayed to my knowledge, but I think you are missing the bigger picture. There is absolutely no evidence that Wally was running backward from the Big Bang. It very explicitely happened behind him and then spun new life out in front of him. He was not running back in time because he was witnessing chronologically accurate new events happening right before his eyes. He was watching a new universe come into existence- not something that happens if you stop at the new Big Bang and then start rewinding the tape.

We are at this point analyzing this one page into oblivion for absolutely no reason. It's not a Jackson Pollock painting. The sequence of events is very blatantly laid out for us. The Flash ran from the present into the timestream to get the Black Flash to chase him. He came out at a time when death didn't exist, causing the Black Flash to die. While still running forward, he witnessed the birth of a new universe. He clearly ran right next to the expanding Big Bang. Then he said he misses Linda. Back in the present, Jesse Quick mentions that Wally is probably coming back. Max Murcury disagrees and says Wally might have broken the Speed Barrier and become one with the Speed Force as a way to kill himself. Then Wally surprises everybody by returning to the present with Linda. Max Mercury says he must have dove into the Speed Force, found her, and come back out. It's all a very straight forward story.
 
I'm sorry that I'm causing you stress over this. I just don't think the panels show that he ran into the Speed Force before running back to before entropy. We know a burst of white happened with the big bang, but I don't associate that with the bubbling black space going from the white to an expanse of black. If the black universe turns to bubbling black spots to white because of entropy, then the reverse would show if Wally runs back in time. It's the decay of entropy happening in reverse.
 
I can use the exact same justification to claim that this is the artist's way of portraying creation. Observe: "If the black universe turns to bubbling black spots to white because of entropy, then the reverse would show if the universe was emerging from entropy instead." The only difference is that my interpretation has several other things from the comic backing it up.

For example, it says on panel while this is happening that "the universe explodes with life all over again." Wally says he is witnessing "the fundamental building blocks of creation," and while these things are narrated, it literally shows a DNA strand (the fundamental building blocks of life and creation) exploding from the void with the various space that's being formed. That seems pretty indicative that he isn't running backwards through time.

Here's another one: Once the Flash family back home senses that the Black Flash has been defeated, Jesse Quick tells Jay that Wally will probably travel back home through the timestream. Max Mercury, however, disagrees and insists that he felt Wally jump into the Speed Force instead. Max Mercury is more in tune with the Speed Force than most other speedsters. We have no reason to doubt this assessment. Then Wally emerges from the Speed Force with Linda in front of everybody. We know that he emerged during that exact second because even Linda was surprised to see him. Again, this entire exchange seems to very clearly suggest that Wally did not return to the present by traveling backward through time. He ran into the timestream, emerged in the future to kill death, dove into the Speed Force, and then emerged from the Speed Force in the present with Linda, since the Speed Force transcends time. The only other possible explanation available would be to claim that Wally ran into the timestream, emerged in the future to kill death, reentered the timestream, ran back faster than any other Flash thought possible, somehow tricked Max Mercury's Speed Force senses in a way that was never explained, emerged in the present far away from his friends and family for no particular reason, jumped into the Speed Force, retrieved Linda, and then emerged in front of his friends to look cool. That seems rather roundabout, convoluted, and out of character, don't you think? The narrative suggests nothing of the sort!

I'm sorry. It's possible that I'm being a little more irritable than usual right now. Understand it has nothing to do with you personally. There are other factors at play. Forgive me. It's just that after the half dozen different reinterpretations of the scene to make it unusable, I'm starting to become impatient in explaining it. I don't think the comic book is that hard to understand. I can appreciate playing devil's advocate, but I think it has extended beyond rationale at this point. It just feels more like misrepresentation.
 
I'm sorry if I really am misunderstanding the context of the comic here. Since we've both said our piece, I'm okay with just leaving it up to the other admins and mods and their votes on how to handle it.
 
Does this matter specifically? I've always wondered why Flash has immeasurable speed for time travel in the first place, we can calculate when the universe dies depending on the method of destruction and none of it gives infinite. But I do agree with NESfan. Wally just ran to the end of time and then jumped into the speed force, nothing fancy about it. Now whether he outpaced then Big Bang or not is up to interpretation. That said it could very well be that Wally is using immeasurable or infinite speed (if that is still legit) to outpace the Big Bang since the end of time comes naturally after the timestream ends but he could be using the same amount of speed as if he was still within the timestream. Now if the new universe is a repetition of the previous universe then it doesn't really matter if Wally goes back or forward in time (if he didn't go to the Speed Force) since he can arrive in the new "present" which happens trillions of years after the previous present but the difference won't be noticed by anyone.

Edit: also the 2 Linda argument doesn't work since either the Speed Force keeps all infinite repetitions of the universe separate so Wally can get only to one Linda at a time or the Speed Force is beyond time in such a way that there is only one Linda there yet she will never truly leave even if Flash comes and gets her.
 
I personally think that Classic seems to make better sense in this case. What, if anything, needs to be adjusted in the profile page?
 
Also can we scale this to Rebirth Barry? He kept pace with Wally during Flash War, he only lost pace when Wally got emotionally amped but with said speed he could tag Zoom who he couldn't tag back when he performed this feat.
 
I'm pretty positive that immesurable speed was not in use at this point. As for whether Rebirth Barry should scale to Wally's best or not though, that sounds like a discussion for another thread. A lot of people will probably have something to say about it. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it at this exact moment. I'd need to think on it.
 
Okay. That can probably be applied then. Which pages do I need to unlock?
 
A bit less important, but I think the Superman page used to link to the Shattered God feat but was changed to linking to Wonder Woman after the Shattered God was rejected. Should it go back to linking to the calc? I'd be willing fix it, but I know it's pretty minor.
 
It's better if it links to WW since it's her feat.

Maybe we should also mention Flash's tredecillion speed feat as far higher when amped.
 
@Ehnkr2beboh, If one of Superman's justifications is being comparable to Wonder Woman, I believe it is most appropriate to link him to Wonder Woman's page proper to see all of the things we have to say about her rather than a single feat she did.
 
ClassicNESfan said:
@Ehnkr2beboh, If one of Superman's justifications is being comparable to Wonder Woman, I believe it is most appropriate to link him to Wonder Woman's page proper to see all of the things we have to say about her rather than a single feat she did.
Click to expand...
Alright.

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Well, that should finally bring this discussion to a close. I apologize if my earlier attitude was not befitting my usual disposition. I was probably more aggressive than I usually am. There are a lot of other factors sort of stressing me out right now. You know what I'm talking about, Ant.
 
No, that is fine. I will unlock it again.
 
I still prefer we mention Wally's amped speed feat, a lot of people like to use it and there is no real reason to remove it.

Edit: after "times" there should be "faster than light" it reads weirdly otherwise.
 
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