DC Demiurgic Archangels vs Downstreamers

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

so, after doing on SB debate on SB regarding downstreamers, I kinda want to test them (again...)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Michael_Demiurgos (1-A)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lucifer_Morningstar (1-A)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Gabriel_Hornblower (1-A w Sword of Azazel)

vs

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Downstreamers


both factions are kinda similar in hax.

Lucifer being able to no-sell infinite deaths and walked through different layers of death. but DS may have something close to that, being able to make all kind of transdual planes (probably up to infinite-valued planes) and (someone implied that) DS can also fold all universes regardless of logic governing them, thus may grant DS infinite layers/states of existence.

DS also have many other haxes what with being able to (modify metaphysics to) actualize impossibilities/impossible worlds and can create outerverses and 1-A entities many times over.

Demiurges are no slouch however. they can create concept from scratch and also manage to create two 1-A entities and Endlesses (previously Tiered at 1-As too before they're downgraded) as mere side effect of creation of multiverse. not to mention Lucifer managed to one-shot a 1-A effortlessly.

not to mention I also have Gabriel w SoA in the roster just in case if DS can actually win (because Gab with SoA >= The Presence )

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

bump of the angels!

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I... honestly have no clue. They are extremely evenly matched.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Lucifer alone solos. Downstreamers are only baseline 1A

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

I... honestly have no clue. They are extremely evenly matched.

voting for Inconclusive?

Lucifer alone solos. Downstreamers are only baseline 1A

|Vote :

|Lucifer : 1 | Downstreamers : 0


baseline? but (as Lucifer could) downstreamers can create 1-A entities many times over?

they also managed to edit the metaphysics of their verse (their version of Overvoid, probably) to decide/edit what's 'possible' and 'impossible', in order to 'actualize impossibilities' because they ran out of 'possible' things to create...

other than beyond possible|impossible, they're also above all forms of logic iirc (can make all kind of 'valued' logic). so I think they're well above 'baseline' by now...

 

[AndrewBennet]

As far as people concerned here downstreamers are just a baseline 1A entities while lucifer is few lvls just above 1A'S since he is shown to dwarf multiple 1A's in creation like Night , time , pralaya, The Source etc . I'm going with lucifer because he has shown to be immensely powerful compared to baseline 1As .

 

[Jockey-1337]

Archangels for the reasons above.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Also, DSs are "possibly 1-A" not 100% 1-A.

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

Archangels : 2

As far as people concerned here downstreamers are just a baseline 1A entities while lucifer is few lvls just above 1A'S since he is shown to dwarf multiple 1A's in creation like Night , time , pralaya, The Source etc . I'm going with lucifer because he has shown to be immensely powerful compared to baseline 1As .

Also, DSs are "possibly 1-A" not 100% 1-A.

okay, I'll try to go against popular opinion then then : https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1050279 https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1038499

(on unrelated note, on these threads, Chaos gods are being considered to be revised to 'Possibly 1-A', yay!)

threads above explained that math can also encompass 1-As too. and Downstreamers' manifold encompass all math with DS themselves transcended manifold (which encompasses all math) itself iirc. as such, it has been pointed out that it could change tiering of Chaos gods (to be Possibly 1-A) and Downstreamers (to be solid 1-A).

from DontTalk :

To be completly honest I never saw why "beyond mathematics" would be a fundamental criteria. A lot of 1-A haven't actually shown something in the regards and it is actually pretty impossible to say what it means.
This begins by the fact that mathematics has simply no generally accepted definition (which is kinda ironic for the science that values definitions so much).

If you look below for example you will find many different understandings of such a topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_mathematics

And if you define mathematics as something like the study of patterns or the study of necessary conclusions or the mental process of performing inductive and effective conclusion... are things really beyond math then?

I mean fuzzy set theory is an example of how one can outright invent completly new, even non-binary, logic and do math with it.

Being beyond math is on one hand, if rigourously inforced, nigh-impossible to prove, if not directly stated, and on the other hand the implications of what that means for a character are increadibly vague.

Hence, if you want my honest opinion, I think the being beyond math requirement should be removed.

btw. for general "and are beyond scientific definition, in the realm of metaphysics" is even worse given that metaphysics as a branch of philosophy is technically a science, I believe (well, if it is done scientific. There is also lots of philosophers that aren't quite scientific (albeit what is scientific or not is also a difficult debate)).

That the study of logic is also a science doesn't really make this better either.
note the bolded. beyond math is almost impossible to prove, because you can even invent completely new logic with math (which makes Downstreamers transcend all forms of logic) then manifold can encompass from baseline 1-As up to very high-tier within 1-As excepting top-tiers like Outer Gods who are stated to be beyond math.

so I myself think DS' degree of transcendence is very high because math encompass almost everything. this should make DS at least on par with Hadou gods.

 

[AndrewBennet]

And not to mention totality of the heaven in DC alone is said to exists beyond the imagination and lvls of 1A planes . So DC gods like lucifer and micheal would be far above the regular 1A entities just by their nature .

 

[Palaeocene.epoch1]

And not to mention totality of the heaven in DC alone is said to exists beyond the imagination and lvls of 1A planes . So DC gods like lucifer and micheal would be far above the regular 1A entities just by their nature .

ok. but you didn't address/refute my statement about DS being far above baseline 1-A though. thanks to manifold being able to encompass all forms of math (which would encompass 1-A traits that does not contradict themselves, i.e : transduality, dimensionless, fully metaphysical and etc.).

not even The Presence is exempt from being 'encompassed by math' if I understand things right. because math is defined as 'relation between existing entities'. and The Presence have relation to entities around him (relation to his creation : he created Lucifer and Michael and DCverse).

manifold also encompass every forms of logic (including non-binary logic. basically 'Transduality' on crack).

not to mention they can edit metaphysics of their verse to create new 'math' to create new possibilities, making them above possibility/impossibility other than being beyond duality and logic.

so DS can also match archangels' 'beyond imagination' and 'beyond multiple 1-A planes' thx to DS being able to create completely new and all forms of non-binary logic and/or rule other planes with alien logic. which might be able to be many times more alien than your baseline outerverse. and DS can make it infinite times over because manifoldverse consists of infinite manifolds with no end to endless hierarchy.

so I think DS is more than enough to match even three archangels or even The Presence himself.

 

[TheSandman31]

No, the Downstreamers arent beating the Presence.

No way for them to permanently put down the Presence true-godly

and by your definition, anything with relation to anything gets stomped by Downstreamers.

Anyway, this should be close, The Downstreamers are considered High 1-B and if you want to really want to bump them to high-tier 1-A then, please take your argument here

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1091233#54

The DS isn't beating the Presence unless you make a content revision thread

 

[TheSandman31]

This is a stomp High 1-B vs 1-A

If they( the downstreamers) ARE 1-A then you're right that they are going to be high end 1-A(but still not enough to beat the Presence considering that Hajuns match against the Presence is inconclusive or end up being lock because both shouldn't be used in battles because of NLF vs NLF)

 

[Aeyu]

This is now a stomp match, as it has been agreed upon that simply transcending an infinite reality does not necessarily qualify a character for tier 1-A unless the character in question is conceptually superior to all dimensions, which is to say that they surpass any and all kinds of material existence that we know of.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Downstreamers even before they were downgraded are only baseline 1A which puts then at Mother Night and pralaya lvl . Lucifer alone solos all of them .

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

Archangels FRA.

 

[Aeyu]

Please don't necrobump really old, outdated threads. I'm closing this.