DC Comics ~ Vertigo: Revising God tiers’ speed.

[Catzlaflame]

I was told to make this in a separate thread:

Elaine, Lucifer, Michale, etc are some of the oldest pages, not only on the DC side of vsb, but on vsb in general. That said, our speed tiers have changed significantly over the years, and I don’t believe Vertigo god tiers are completely up to date.

The current justification for their immeasurable speed is…. Nothing!

Forget scans there aren’t even justifications. While I have an argument for immeasurable speed… it is no where near as solid as I would like. In any case, if someone would like to debate/provide arguments in favor of immeasurable speed I’m all ears. However, if not, I am proposing a downgrade to Infinite speed which is much easier to prove. To justify infinite speed I’ll just quote myself:

In the Lucifer comics when Yahweh’s WORD stopped holding the pieces of creation together, Creation was going to collapse. So Elaine along with some others, physically “grabbed” the “edges” of the gate and pulled it across all of creation (Lucifer 69). Later on in the issue, the distance that she traveled “pulling” the gate across all of Lucifer’s cosmos was stated to be infinite (Lucifer 69). We can logically conclude it did not take her an infinite amount of time as, according to Lucifer, creation would only last a few days after Yahweh’s WORD disolved (Lucifer 49). Meaning that it would’ve, at most, taken a few days for this feat to occur.

so yea.

---

edit:
also I will just quote my not so good argument for Immeasurable speed in to the OP if anyone is interested:

“First, note the existence of the soft spaces, it is a place where “time and space flow like water” (Lucifer 56)

In the soft spaces, there is The Barrowjane. a creature which can travel through time, this statement (Lucifer 57) and the entire arc, make that pretty obvious. Now, I think the Barrowjane traveling through time is physical movement, not time travel for 2 reasons. One being that, its Time Travel comes from following Krill, microscopic animals, and physically eating them to make a path that allows it to travel in the future(same scan), and Two because in this statement(Lucifer 56) it’s stated that the Barrowjane’s Time travel is “Movementin no direction I could define”

So immeasurable via physical movement into the future, and I was thinking maybe we could give a “Possibly immeasurable” rating for god tiers in Vertigo era DC through upscaling via being ridiculously above the other characters. Honestly not a solid argument but it’s better than giving them immeasurable for literally no reason.”

Agree (5): @Antvasima @Deagonx @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree (0):

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Pretty sure even weaker angels could casually fly between heaven and hell and such which is an immeasurable distance

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

this can work

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

There are many contexts missing here. Elaine was flying through space between, underneath, and across from Lucifer's Creation starting from Yahweh’s Creation.

Infinity is relative to Time and Space within a certain perspective. Elaine's mass and shape aren't definite but Lucifer can will any material to be infinite as Michael cam make any infinite degree of any concept. Elaine's perspective is gauged through already being a Demiurge and speeds are relative to beings such as her.

The acceleration of Yahweh's Creation is based on the level of reality with the more abstract taking longer to devolve. However, the only reason why it was destroyed in a timely manner is due to Fenris. Michael and Elaine alone could sustain Creation but its inevitable doom was created by Fenris.

 

[Catzlaflame]

There are many contexts missing here.

Because this context isn’t relevant.

I agree with everything you said. I just don’t see where the point of conflict is… all these nitty-gritty details about the Yggdrasil ordeal are not necessary to make my point. Also stuff like this:

Elaine was flying through space between, underneath, and across from Lucifer's Creation starting from Yahweh’s Creation.

Yes I am aware, but this just simply does not warrant Immeasurable or anything else tbh.

Pretty sure even weaker angels could casually fly between heaven and hell and such which is an immeasurable distance

This would also not warrant immeasurable by our standards.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I agree with everything you said. I just don’t see where the point of conflict is… all these nitty-gritty details about the Yggdrasil ordeal are not necessary to make my point. Also stuff like this:

Yes I am aware, but this just simply does not warrant Immeasurable or anything else tbh.

Most Tier 1 has these simply by being rated as such. Plus she was flying past the physical space across the worlds in which these Universes themselves are already 3D within no “set time” just across that distance while crossing realms and abstracfication said to be infinite from each edge of the different Creation.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Also, I read this again, and I realize how this makes no sense.

Elaine literally tells us “across infinite distance.” Which is referring to Lucifer's Creation as of course would apply to Yahweh’s as well. It didn't take her a day, it took her just flying through each set point of Creation from Yahweh, Lucifer, and hers.

The OP uses Yahweh's words as justification for how long Creation would take to die. Not taking into account:

• The deceleration is not based on time but rather a process of Creation unmaking itself in levels. Which “may” be a couple of days or weeks depending on who it's targeting since the more abstract you are the more time you have.
• Also, distance has nothing to do with words each thing would unmake itself, and Creation would eventually collapse within itself with the creations inside. Meaning the process of Creation is not of size. It's referring to how long the beings and concept of Creation last.

 

[Robo432343]

toddler you do realize the OP is proposing infinite speed? do you agree or disagree??

 

[Robo432343]

i asked a questions and answers thread about what speed is transcending distance and time and with the right context, it might be immeasurable
lucifers wings>time and distance

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

toddler you do realize the OP is proposing infinite speed? do you agree or disagree??

Nothing of what the OP said contradicts immeasurable speed. I've read it and it made no sense to compare Creation decelerating to it being a size and coming up with a conclusion it took her days to finish a distance.

So no I don't agree.

 

[Robo432343]

Nothing of what the OP said contradicts immeasurable speed. I've read it and it made no sense to compare Creation decelerating to it being a size and coming up with a conclusion it took her days to finish a distance.

the OP is not trying to debunk immeasurable speed vertigo, the OP is just saying that infinite speed feats are more evident altho there are 2 arguments for immeasurable speed

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

the OP is not trying to debunk immeasurable speed vertigo, the OP is just saying that infinite speed feats are more evident altho there are 2 arguments for immeasurable speed

That's the point. What they have now should be what it is. By adjusting it based on what the OP said is going against what they are now. They by nature have immeasurable speed and as well as infinite speed. However, that speed feat isn't anything of time rather distance.

 

[Robo432343]

i mean can't it be something like infinite | immeasurable

 

[Alonik]

i asked a questions and answers thread about what speed is transcending distance and time and with the right context, it might be immeasurable
lucifers wings>time and distance

Time and distance being ilusion is just Infinite Speed, not immeasurable.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Time and distance being ilusion is just Infinite Speed, not immeasurable.

Although, I don't really care for that specific feat it's saying his wings tore veils of illusion which are space and time. That would mean there is not set time nor distance measure by going from 0-1 in an instant speed. Rather it just breaks apart it enough to not have a measurement of any sort which is immeasurable. Going from a set point in no time to measure and to a being in a section of Hell ruled by Izanami where time is more than just 3-D.

How would we measure that then?

 

[Alonik]

Although, I don't really care for that specific feat it's saying his wings tore veils of illusion which are space and time. That would mean there is not set time nor distance measure by going from 0-1 in an instant speed. Rather it just breaks apart it enough to not have a measurement of any sort which is immeasurable. Going from a set point in no time to measure and to a being in a section of Hell ruled by Izanami where time is more than just 3-D.

How would we measure that then?

It just says that he has broken the illusory veil of distance and time. There is nothing "space-time" about it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It just says that he has broken the illusory veil of distance and time. There is nothing "space-time" about it.

Space is an extra incentive. Not really truly need plus the distance being covered would equate to space since both time and space exist simultaneously.

Also, space was a typo I meant to say distance.

 

[Robo432343]

Time and distance being ilusion is just Infinite Speed, not immeasurable.

given the right context maybe
there is a discussion going on abt it in this thread

https://vsbattles.com/threads/what-speed-is-transcending-time-and-distance.154240/

 

[Catzlaflame]

Nothing of what the OP said contradicts immeasurable speed. I've read it and it made no sense to compare Creation decelerating to it being a size and coming up with a conclusion it took her days to finish a distance.

So no I don't agree.

I didn’t try to debunk anything tho….. I was saying that the pages dont have justifications to begin with. For me to try and debunk an argument, there has to be an argument in the first place. Currently, we do not have any justification. So I’ll ask you this

1) Do you think they have immeasurable speed, yes or no.

2) if yes, please tell me which feat SPECIFICALLY makes you believe they are immeasurable. And bro, for the record, I’ve read Lucifer, you do not need to cover every little minute detail…… please only say what is actually relevant to immeasurable speed.

given the right context maybe
there is a discussion going on abt it in this thread

https://vsbattles.com/threads/what-speed-is-transcending-time-and-distance.154240/

i mean, I think the “right context” here refers to situations where transcending time and distance is = to traveling through time (with only speed ofc)… meanwhile, I don’t think that’s what that Lucifer scan was implying.

 

[Robo432343]

i mean, I think the “right context” here refers to situations where transcending time and distance is = to traveling through time (with only speed ofc)… meanwhile, I don’t think that’s what that Lucifer scan was implying.

what do you think that scan is trying to say, because i think it would be talking about sheer speed since its lucifer wings that make him go fast
the reason why they got immeasurable speed in the first place is because of that scan, no?

 

[Antvasima]

This seems to make sense to me.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeTwo @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @LuciferX @Vasco @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @JohnCenaNation @Robo @VeryGoofyToddler @LephyrTheRevanchist @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus @Zensum @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Hykuu @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca

What do you think?

 

[Excellence616]

This seems to make sense to me.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeTwo @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @LuciferX @Vasco @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @JohnCenaNation @Robo @VeryGoofyToddler @LephyrTheRevanchist @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus @Zensum @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Hykuu @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca

What do you think?

@VeryGoofyToddler makes more sense

 

[Antvasima]

Do the current immeasurable speed statistics need to be better explained/justified in the relevant character profile pages?

 

[Robo432343]

Do the current immeasurable speed statistics need to be better explained/justified in the relevant character profile pages?

There needs to be a discussion about what tier transcending time and distance would be in terms of speed
its getting controversial

 

[Robo432343]

Also Elaine should be faster than barrowjane who can travel through time
it doesn't make any sense for her not to be

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it depends on if the time travel is directly connected to movement speed or not.

 

[Robo432343]

Well, it depends on if the time travel is directly connected to movement speed or not.

yeah it was stated to be movement here

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that it is probably fine then, but are the speed justifications in these character profile pages sufficiently well explained?

 

[Robo432343]

but are the speed justifications in these character profile pages sufficiently well explained?

no
there are no scans or anything for the immeasurable speed section in the profiles

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Then that obviously needs to be improved.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Okay. Then that obviously needs to be improved.

@Antvasima For the record, the barrowjane’s movement ONLY works when it’s journey begins in the Soft Spaces, and the comic specifically mentions that the soft spaces have specialized features that could potentially be the reason why it is even able to move at this level. (I.e., the fact that time “flows like water” there). This is the reason why I called it a “not-so good argument” in the op, but in any case, I have updated the op to include that argument. If staff think it wouldn’t be a problem, I’m all for it.

what do you think that scan is trying to say, because i think it would be talking about sheer speed since its lucifer wings that make him go fast
the reason why they got immeasurable speed in the first place is because of that scan, no?

Yes the scan about Luci’s wings does refer to sheer speed, no question about that, but I don’t think “time and distance are illusions” is enough to prove that he can physically travel through time.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima For the record, the barrowjane’s movement ONLY works when it’s journey begins in the Soft Spaces, and the comic specifically mentions that the soft spaces have very specialized features that could potentially be the reason why it is even able to move at this level. This is the reason why I called it a “not-so good argument” in the op, in any case, I have updated the op to include that argument. If staff think it wouldn’t be a problem, I’m all for it.

Okay. Never mind the Barrowjane then.

Yes the scan about Luci’s wings does refer to sheer speed, no question about that, but I don’t think “time and distance are illusions” is enough to prove that he can physically travel through time.

Okay. I suppose that we need further information to justify anything beyond infinite speed then.

 

[Robo432343]

@Antvasima For the record, the barrowjane’s movement ONLY works when it’s journey begins in the Soft Spaces, and the comic specifically mentions that the soft spaces have specialized features that could potentially be the reason why it is even able to move at this level. (I.e., the fact that time “flows like water” there).

yeah this is true
do you know if being qualitatively superior to a place that grants you immeasurable speed actually gives you immeasurable speed?
because elaine>soft spaces where time and space flow like water

 

[PrinceofPein]

Infinite speed is fine
The immeasurable not so much, also the scan that says "movement" is shaky and I do not see it that way
Transcending time or space does not grant immeasurable speed neither will traveling through universes grant it

 

[Robo432343]

Transcending time or space does not grant immeasurable speed neither will traveling through universes grant it

no one is saying transcending time or space gets you immeasurable speed
its transcending time and distance

 

[PrinceofPein]

no one is saying transcending time or space gets you immeasurable speed
its transcending time and distance

alone, it will not get you immeasurable speed either, as it can mean a lot of things depending on the contexts.

 

[Robo432343]

alone, it will not get you immeasurable speed either, as it can mean a lot of things depending on the contexts.

if the context is talking about transcending time and distance in terms of speed what would it be?
theres like a dmc thread about if if transcending time and distance is infinite or immeasurable and no one seems to really know

 

[PrinceofPein]

if the context is talking about transcending time and distance in terms of speed what would it be?
theres like a dmc thread about if if transcending time and distance is infinite or immeasurable and no one seems to really know

transcending distance and time grants no speed ratings on its own without contexts

the contexts needed will be, physically traveling through time or timelines e.t.c.

 

[Robo432343]

transcending distance and time grants no speed ratings on its own without contexts

the contexts needed will be, physically traveling through time or timelines e.t.c.

but isn't transcending time by sheer speed mean you're beyond linear time which is the definition of immeasurable speed??

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I didn’t try to debunk anything tho….. I was saying that the pages dont have justifications to begin with. For me to try and debunk an argument, there has to be an argument in the first place. Currently, we do not have any justification. So I’ll ask you this

1) Do you think they have immeasurable speed, yes or no.

There is justification. You just added a point that may seem like it was an “infinite” speed but it really wasn't.