DC Comics - Remove "possibly" for the Darkest Knight

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree with Deagonx and Elizio here. Strong metafictional references do not remotely equate to genuine plot manipulation according to our official standards. My apologies, but that suggestion has been officially firmly rejected.

As far as I recall, there was a long discussion about this earlier, and Deagonx and Elizio had the most rational arguments here, yes.

If that is the only change that is left here, I think it should be applied so we can finally wrap up this thread.

 

[Xearsay]

I don't know how many different ways I can repeat this. My comment about Mandrakk being in the hyperstory was not about whether or not he is capable of manipulating the plot, it was in regards to the question of whether or not the effect "hyperstory is trying to destroy me" came from Mandrakk or not. Nothing in the story says it's from Mandrakk, and Mandrakk himself was subjected to this destruction, so I explained that this effect likely didn't come from Mandrakk himself. You need to make the effort to read and understand the context of discussion before making these tedious objections.


My statement there had nothing to do with internal manipulation of a plot. Good grief.

It may not have been outright stated but it is implied. CAS becomes aware of this Hyperstory trying its best to destroy him the moment Mandrakk starts fighting him and attempting to destroy him. Also Mandrakk was never subject to any destruction. All that happened was he got pushed into the Overvoid.

And even if you still disagree I listed other examples of plot manipulation besides the Hyperstory stuff.

We discussed it to satisfaction. Your objection is not a justification for being toxic to other members.

To the satisfaction of what? Also where was I being toxic?

As far as I recall, there was a long discussion about this earlier, and Deagonx and Elizio had the most rational arguments here, yes.

To you. There are other people who agreed with keeping plot manipulation for Mandrakk.

After other people agreed with Mandrakk keeping plot manipulation you yourself even said “Okay. Mandrakk can probably keep the power in question then. Thank you for helping out.” And now you’re doubling back because Deagonx disagrees.

 

[Deagonx]

It may not have been outright stated but it is implied. CAS becomes aware of this Hyperstory trying its best to destroy him the moment Mandrakk starts fighting him and attempting to destroy him.

Implied is a matter of interpretation. I am not saying that my interpretation is a matter of proven fact, either, but without anything definitive to tie it to Mandrakk, it can't be used for his profile. I think there are plenty of issues with that interpretation.

Also Mandrakk was never subject to any destruction. All that happened was he got pushed into the Overvoid.

Later CAS says "the inexorable (unstoppable) logic of a living story drives us towards it's conclusion." The end result is that both of them are destroyed. Mandrakk is consumed by the Overvoid and CAS is destroyed beyond repair. In my interpretation, what CAS meant by the "inexorable logic of a living story" is referring to his and Mandrakk's role as the "hero and villain" of the "story" and that their roles as hero and villain inevitably result of their mutual destruction, CAS' self sacrifice to save the world. Mandrakk's death was retconned by a later writer, but this isn't particularly relevant as to how we interpret Final Crisis.

It could be interpreted numerous ways, so I don't intend to entertain a debate about it, but the fact remains that we are never told what Hyperstory is, or what any of this means, so attributing it to Mandrakk is just as speculative as any other approach, and isn't satisfactory evidence for a character profile.

 

[Xearsay]

Implied is a matter of interpretation. I am not saying that my interpretation is a matter of proven fact, either, but without anything definitive to tie it to Mandrakk, it can't be used for his profile. I think there are plenty of issues with that interpretation.

Later CAS says "the inexorable (unstoppable) logic of a living story drives us towards it's conclusion." The end result is that both of them are destroyed. Mandrakk is consumed by the Overvoid and CAS is destroyed beyond repair. In my interpretation, what CAS meant by the "inexorable logic of a living story" is referring to his and Mandrakk's role as the "hero and villain" of the "story" and that their roles as hero and villain inevitably result of their mutual destruction, CAS' self sacrifice to save the world. Mandrakk's death was retconned by a later writer, but this isn't particularly relevant as to how we interpret Final Crisis.

It could be interpreted numerous ways, so I don't intend to entertain a debate about it, but the fact remains that we are never told what Hyperstory is, or what any of this means, so attributing it to Mandrakk is just as speculative as any other approach, and isn't satisfactory evidence for a character profile.

Saying it’s a matter of interpretation means nothing because my interpretation can simply be correct. Implications are a form of indirect expression writers use and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with taking them into account as evidence of a truth.

Also once again, Mandrakk wasn’t destroyed. He was literally just pushed off Nil into the Overvoid. Nothing indicates that he died from being pushed into the Overvoid either. So your whole argument that Mandrakk couldn’t have been manipulating it because he was “destroyed“ by it is false. It wouldn’t even make sense either since CAS states the Hyperstory is “trying its best to destroy me.” He doesn’t say it’s trying its best to destroy me and Mandrakk.

Furthermore I already explained in my first comment on page 4 that the Hyperstory is literally what governs the reality of Nil. As the formation of Nil is literally the byproduct of legend taking root and story spreading.

 

[Deagonx]

Saying it’s a matter of interpretation means nothing because my interpretation can simply be correct.

That's my point, though, it could be, but we have no way of knowing that for sure. Some level of uncertainty is common, but calling Mandrakk the Hyperstory is literally guesswork.

Also once again, Mandrakk wasn’t destroyed. He was literally just pushed off Nil into the Overvoid. Nothing indicates that he died from being pushed into the Overvoid either

And was then erased by the Overvoid until it was retconned.

Furthermore I already explained in my first comment on page 4 that the Hyperstory is literally what governs the reality of Nil. As the formation of Nil is literally the byproduct of legend taking root and story spreading.

You're literally just making that up. Nothing in the comic suggests "hyperstory" governs the reality of Nil or that it created Nil. It did say "story" took root and became the history of the Monitors, but there's nothing in the comic to connect that to "hyperstory" except assumptions.

 

[Deagonx]

If that is the only change that is left here, I think it should be applied so we can finally wrap up this thread.

The changes have been applied. You can re-lock those pages and lock this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.