DBZ Era Saiyan Base Forms

[Promestein]

How strong are the Saiyans in base form? Yakon is scaled to base Goku being "At least Small Star level+", while Kibito (and the Tournament of Power humans) are scaled to base Gohan being Large Star level. Still, I see people disagreeing about how strong the Saiyans' base forms are during DBZ, so let's deal with that now.

 

[SomebodyData]

We already know the Supreme Kai >>> Frieza so Saiyans shouldn't be far off, I'd say at least low end Large Star level.

 

[Promestein]

Shin's Large Star level+, so I don't think they'd be low-end Large Star level if we scale them to him.

 

[SomebodyData]

Why is he Large Star level+?

 

[Promestein]

Piccolo, who should be around Semi-Perfect Cell level at the least, describing their power as being dimensions apart.

 

[SomebodyData]

I see, hmmm

 

[Antoniofer]

Isn't Goku == Frieza during BoG or end of Buu saga? Also, don't think that the base version of saiyans woukd scale to Shin.

 

[Promestein]

I don't remember if that's stated in the anime but in the movie he's weaker than Freeza in his base form, yes.

I absolutely agree that base Saiyans shouldn't scale to Shin, but it's important to get community input and see what's most consistent, since there is definitely inconsistency and stupidity either way here.

 

[Amexim]

The distance between the high ends and low ends of Large Star is massive, so, I don't think Large Star level bases are too bad...

 

[The_Everlasting]

The quote was that Base Goku was still weaker than Frieza and would have trouble winning as a Super Saiyan, which is obviously completely bullshit and I think in context was just Beerus taunting Goku.

(Note that I think that's how it went in Super)

 

[Antoniofer]

Note that when I refering to Frieza I'm refering to final form Frieza during Namek Saga, not post-resurrection; I recall Beerus saying that in the movie (or someone else), but not sure.

 

[Amexim]

I mean, I interpret that to mean either:

Goku was suppressed.

Or Goku's full power base is closer to high end Frieza. I do think it's confusing as to how Beerus would know how strong Frieza really is unless Frieza showed his true form, but the only context I see Frieza doing that is to fight Beerus-- which he wouldn't ever do, because of his fear of him.

 

[Antoniofer]

Other thing, I highly doubt that Buu Saga Gohan is Large Star+, as SS2 he still being at that level, and two SS transformation only increasing its power less than 40 times is pretty underwhelming for DBZ standards.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"and two SS transformation only increasing its power less than 40 times is pretty underwhelming for DBZ standards."

Super Saiyan transformations increase power as much as the plot needs it to. That's not an argument.

 

[Promestein]

Base Saiyans being Large Star level+ is stupid regardless. That'd put them around Semi-Perfect Cell level, which is a ridiculous jump in power.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I mean

Seven years can do stuff to a guy's power

Not actually arguing for it, I'm just saying.

 

[Promestein]

That's definitely true but Gohan got weaker.

The Buu Saga is just stupid inconsistent bullshit.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't agree with Freeza jumping from High 5-A to Low 4-C for seconds and third forms.

 

[Therefir]

Frieza was High 5-A+, so jumping to Low 4-C makes sense, which doesn't make sense is frieza jumping from Low 4-C to 4-C.

 

[Promestein]

You should make a separate thread for that, Matt.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Probably. I just felt like it was worth bringing up.

 

[Amexim]

Why not just basic Star Level for the bases?

 

[Promestein]

Why, though? We need justification.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Or Goku's full power base is closer to high end Frieza. I do think it's confusing as to how Beerus would know how strong Frieza really is unless Frieza showed his true form

Didnt Beerus state he personally had Frieza take the job of wiping out the saiyans for him or something?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Base Saiyans being Large Star level+ is stupid regardless. That'd put them around Semi-Perfect Cell level, which is a ridiculous jump in power.

I think that Base Saiyans during the Buu Saga should be around 100% Freeza level, considering that Super Saiyan Trunks and Goten could give 18 a hard time

 

[Akreious]

I thought it was well established that Goku is almost never at full power when casually talking? What's with this "Beerus doesn't think Goku could beat Freeza" deal about? Especially with the canonization of that Dragon Ball Z special where Goku is accused of being weak for the exact same reason.

 

[Amexim]

Well, we know that the increase from Frieza's First to final forms is massive, and, well, the Androids are literally just eyeballed based on scaling between Solar System Level and Dwarf Star, with Frieza being Star level. Their base forms should be comparable to Frieza at this point— with all the training they've done, and the increases like this needing padding between.

Unless we're just gonna low-ball Frieza to Dwarf Star even in Final Form, meaning everyone who isn't SPC level and up will be at the same level— despite the obvious gaps.

 

[Promestein]

The best you could lowball Freeza to is Small Star level.

 

[Amexim]

I mean, "what's the justification for that"? I mean, there are lots of things that are easy sells for scaling based off of the placements of crucial feats. But that's not a complete argument. I think Frieza should be Star level at full power because of the massive power increase, but the justification for the rating of itself is based less in facts or scaling and more estimations.

 

[Promestein]

Yeah, you're right.

 

[Akreious]

Would "At Least Dwarf Star Level, possibly/likely Star Level" work then? Assuming the gap in power.

 

[Promestein]

Personally, I'd prefer for Final Form Freeza to just be Small Star level or at least Small Star level considering the gap from that to Star level but that's not the topic here.

 

[Amexim]

Yes. ******* Christ.

We should do the same for the Ginyu force with "At least Planet, possibly/likely Large Planet"— because of the same power gap reason.

I had a whole complicated scaling thing, but if we can just be ******* cool about it and apply the sense any person who knows Dragon Ball has— that would work.

 

[Amexim]

Also, that is a relevant discussion— base saiyans scale off of Frieza.

 

[Akreious]

The base forms of AT LEAST BoG Goku and Vegeta would get scaled to Freeza I think. It's still relevant.

 

[Amexim]

I mean, they still count as Buu Saga though.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Goku's Base was already Half of Frieza power with a 20X Multiplier. Guess what people... Goku gets stronger in the show yeah I know it's a shock.

Goku SSJ went from Star Level to Large Star level. Okay that's not much just a 2.33X difference. So Goku's base would have gotten a 2.33X increase not that big of a Upgrade.

SSJ Fullpower Goku became high end Large Star level almost reaching Solar System level. That is at the least a 1000X increase in power. Guess what, for Goku's SSJ to get stronger his Base form needs to get stronger as well.

The gap between Base Form Goku and his SSJ stays the same no matter what.

Unless the SSJ increase is over 1530X then Base Goku is Large Star level as well. You people are making this harder then it needs to be.

 

[AKM sama]

Shin said that he can casually one shot the likes of Frieza. Same Shin was afraid of Pui Pui and wanted that all of them together should fight Pui Pui. Same Pui Pui was casually annihilated by base Vegeta.

So base Saiyans >>>> Pui Pui >= Shin >>>> Frieza.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Note that when I refering to Frieza I'm refering to final form Frieza during Namek Saga, not post-resurrection; I recall Beerus saying that in the movie (or someone else), but not sure.

It was in the anime and he was talking about Namek Frieza

 

[Amexim]

Listen to Poinciana. Dat boi smart.