DBS ToP Upgrades and Revisions

[AwkguyDB]

Okay a whole bunch of these profiles are outdated being in pre 2-C/3-A days so there’s gonna be a lot of potential upgrades

NOTE: I think it is important to note two 2-C profiles here that make this more of a must
Android 18
Shosa

Bergamo, Basil, Lavender

Bergamo should be 2-C

Bergamo stated to be the strongest warrior out of Universe 9 off rip meaning without his Crusher ability he should be stronger than Comfrey who matched Shosa who’s AT LEAST LOW-MULTIVERSE Level

Fought against a Base Goku who was instructed not to hold back and was able to endure a barrage of Goku’s direct punches. He easily overpowered that Base Goku and pushed him to Super Saiyan.

In the Tournament of Power he no sold a combined attack from Base Gohan and Piccolo with the human Z fighters

Goku states that in Bergamo's first fight against Goku that he only used Goku’s power against him and kept back his true power.

Bergamo may be missing Damage Boost
Bergamo is able to power up his fist and kicks to be twice the power of the energy given to him meaning its not his own ki being amplified but the stolen power being doubled.

Lavender should be 2-C
He and his brothers are the strongest of Universe 9 meaning he should be stronger than Comfrey who matched a
2-C Shosa in battle

He was able to keep up with Base Gohan and fight a SSJ Gohan, even matching his Kamehameha, who was still displaying amazing power while poisoned

No sold a combined team attack from the likes of Base Gohan and Piccolo

Keeping up with Base Goku and cornered him and Base Vegeta with the rest of his team with them needing to go SSJ to take the upper hand.

Lavender should have Breath Attack
One of the mechanisms for his Poison is used through his mouth.

Limited Sense Manipulation
Can induce blindness to his opponents via his poison.

Basil and Majin Buu should be 2-C

Basil is a member of the Trio De Danger who are the strongest of Universe 9 and should be comparable to his brothers meaning he should be stronger than Comfrey who matched a
2-C Shosa in battle

Narirama who was troubling 2-Cs like Cabba, Dyspo, Shosa, Ribrianne, Rozie, had his arms broken by Basil and Hit.

Basil also no sold an attack by Base Gohan and Base Piccolo

Majin Buu would scale to Basil obviously and pretty much was getting 2-C justifications from Super Hero which were getting reviewed here

Napapa

Held his own against Basil and stopped his Shining Blast.

Nearly forced SSJ Caulifa off the edge.

Decori possibly 2-C

Decori was one of the individuals that no sold a combined team attack with Shosa, Comfrey (who matched Shosa) and the Trio De Danger who should each be stronger than Shosa

Transformation, Limited Darkness Manipulation and resistance to Extreme Cold for Decori

Decori can transform into a large white haired tentacle monster and she is able to manipulate the shadows of her opponents to prevent them from moving.

She lives on a dark planet where "Light barely reaches" so she should have resistance to Extreme Cold


Majora and Krillin should be 2-C
Both are comparable to Android 18 with Majora literally having it in his description and Krillin should scale via his fight against Gohan, against Base/SSJ Goku, against Shosa and recently his fight against Cell Max.

Let’s face it you all knew this day would come.

Damon should get a possibly 2-C instead of unknown
His AP description is literally against all 2-C fighters (Defeated Piccolo, moved Android 17 and Base Goku via the element of surprise)

Botamo maybe 2-C but definitely 2-C Durability

Botamo is said to be superior to a full Base Goku who when fighting is comparable to when Whis had them in heavy suits (In which he was able to tank attacks from an annoyed Beerus)

Botamo tanked the combine attack of Base Gohan and Piccolo and later with Auta Magetta pushed SSJ Vegeta on the defensive.

Cocette, Casserale, Kettol, Tupper and Zoiray should all be 2-C
literally all of their AP descriptions

Kettol himself fought Shosa head to head

Kakunsa and Jimizu should be 2-C
She straight up fought with 17 who had to take her seriously and both kept up with fighters who fought with Android 18 and Jimizu defeated someone that was giving both Rozie and Super Ribrianne trouble Jimizu nearly eliminated Gohan point blank

agreed: LuffyRuffy46307, Stryker86, TheGodOfICE777, TiltedFN, Gasper, CloverDragon03, TimmyTurnero,Borutonarutodebunked, Unqver, Boyinluv2002, LordGriffin1000, GarrixianXD, StarterPack

disagree: AguilaR202

neutral:

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree

 

[Stryker861]

makes sense

 

[omegabronic]

about damon: "It was noted by Roshi that Goku and 17 could have accidently killed him if they hit him; mainly used his size to avoid getting hit"

 

[AwkguyDB]

about damon: "It was noted by Roshi that Goku and 17 could have accidently killed him if they hit him; mainly used his size to avoid getting hit"

Its fine I put a possibly there because I wasn't sure

 

[AguilaR202]

Trío de danger should only be 2-C after the exhibition match, so should be Gohan and Piccolo

It’s made explicitly clear Gohan wasn’t even back to his previous peak as Ultimate Gohan when training for the ToP, it’s only after he regains Ultimate and spars with blue Goku that he is confirmed to be 2-C.

Piccolos only argument for scaling pre ToP is taking on a vastly weakened frost under a no kill rule tournament, he also isn’t 2-C until the start of the ToP.

Majora only managed to land a surprise hit on 18 and fought Krillin mostly, nothing indicates he should be 2-C scaling off 18 who at any rate held back when kicking him and mostly expectated without interfering.

Majin Buu has zero evidence of being 2-C at this point in time, he never trained and it’s only during superhero that he is considered relevant powerwise, not during the ToP which had much weaker characters on the roster, his relevance in superhero could very well be due to an offscreen Moro arc for all we know too, so even if he were 2-C it’d be a vastly different key than the one from the ToP era.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I agree but if Botama’s said to be superior via a statement that should be solid rating

(You should also add Sanka Ku who has 2-C justification but high 4-C to the op)

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I agree with most of character scaling and abilities but neutral on Majora and Krillin. Also Krillin doesn't seem to be fighting Cell Max just a solar flare.

 

[TiltedFN]

i agree with this obviously, it makes no sense how most of these characters have star level justifications from a 2-C scaling chain lol.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I agree with most of character scaling and abilities but neutral on Majora and Krillin. Also Krillin doesn't seem to be fighting Cell Max just a solar flare.

In one of the scenes Krillin straight up kicks him and knocks him back iirc.

 

[Gasper]

Agree

 

[CloverDragon03]

Trío de danger should only be 2-C after the exhibition match, so should be Gohan and Piccolo

It’s made explicitly clear Gohan wasn’t even back to his previous peak as Ultimate Gohan when training for the ToP, it’s only after he regains Ultimate and spars with blue Goku that he is confirmed to be 2-C.

This is just wrong. Prior to the Zen Expo, SSJ Gohan matched SSJ Goku, making him 2-C

Piccolos only argument for scaling pre ToP is taking on a vastly weakened frost under a no kill rule tournament, he also isn’t 2-C until the start of the ToP.

Piccolo is accepted as 2-C during the Universe 6 Saga

Majora only managed to land a surprise hit on 18 and fought Krillin mostly, nothing indicates he should be 2-C scaling off 18 who at any rate held back when kicking him and mostly expectated without interfering.

"Nothing indicates he should be 2-C" Except for the fact that, regardless, he did in fact hurt 18 in the ToP. Also he wasn't harmed at all by 18's kick, he was just playing dead. And lastly, she and Krillin frequently trained together leading up to the ToP

Majin Buu has zero evidence of being 2-C at this point in time, he never trained and it’s only during superhero that he is considered relevant powerwise, not during the ToP which had much weaker characters on the roster, his relevance in superhero could very well be due to an offscreen Moro arc for all we know too, so even if he were 2-C it’d be a vastly different key than the one from the ToP era.

It's not like he trained leading up to Super Hero either. Dude's been asleep, yet he was relevant power-wise. He evidently grows passively stronger.

And then he also matches Base Goku as Skinny Buu, we only have this as an outlier because everything we don't personally like is treated as an outlier for some reason

 

[AguilaR202]

This is just wrong. Prior to the Zen Expo, SSJ Gohan matched SSJ Goku, making him 2-C

Piccolo is accepted as 2-C during the Universe 6 Saga

"Nothing indicates he should be 2-C" Except for the fact that, regardless, he did in fact hurt 18 in the ToP. Also he wasn't harmed at all by 18's kick, he was just playing dead. And lastly, she and Krillin frequently trained together leading up to the ToP

It's not like he trained leading up to Super Hero either. Dude's been asleep, yet he was relevant power-wise. He evidently grows passively stronger.

And then he also matches Base Goku as Skinny Buu, we only have this as an outlier because everything we don't personally like is treated as an outlier for some reason

Goku holds back all the time to give himself a challenge, it is a consistent enough occurrence to where bullets hurt him for playing around, it’s ridiculous you want to give Gohan 2-C scaling earlier than when he is actually shown to fight at those levels when it’s outright stated he needed his old power back during his training with piccolo, you need mental gymnastics to reconcile the whole training sequence with Piccolo so that Gohan is both already stronger than his previous peak in power in Ultimate, and still somehow need to go back to his old power that is weaker than he is at the present moment.

The ToP is a no kill rule tourney, unless explicitly stated character’s ought to be holding back against eachother, majora only manages to knock back 18 with a surprise kick and most of his screen time is spent fighting krillin, why should 1 hit exchanges qualify for scaling now when we know a) characters can and will hold back
B) characters dropping their guard makes the stupidly vulnerable

So?
Chronologically speaking majin buu is only hyped to be 2-C after the ToP, wether or not this is a result of passive growth we have nothing to indicate he’d be 2-C during the ToP or any earlier than superhero.

We know how fast characters can grow in power in super so even 2 days of offscreen time is more than enough for back scaling to no longer be feasible, which is why I propose trio de danger be considered 2-C during the ToP and not in the exhibition match when they lose to characters with dubious scaling themselves, bergamo being the only exception as he should be 2-C during the exhibition match.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Goku holds back all the time to give himself a challenge, it is a consistent enough occurrence to where bullets hurt him for playing around, it’s ridiculous you want to give Gohan 2-C scaling earlier than when he is actually shown to fight at those levels when it’s outright stated he needed his old power back during his training with piccolo, you need mental gymnastics to reconcile the whole training sequence with Piccolo so that Gohan is both already stronger than his previous peak in power in Ultimate, and still somehow need to go back to his old power that is weaker than he is at the present moment.

All you're saying is "well he could be-" nothing concrete. Prove that he is concretely holding back, especially when the context of the Goku and Gohan fight is that Goku is bored and is looking for a good fight, which he finds via Gohan

Also, you don't need any mental gymnastics lmao. Piccolo telling Gohan to awaken his old self is referring to his Ultimate form, not his previous peak in power (hence why he says "Is Super Saiyan all you can do?" when Gohan goes SSJ2 prior to returning to his Ultimate form). No mental gymnastics, just the most basic level of extrapolation

The ToP is a no kill rule tourney, unless explicitly stated character’s ought to be holding back against eachother, majora only manages to knock back 18 with a surprise kick and most of his screen time is spent fighting krillin, why should 1 hit exchanges qualify for scaling now when we know a) characters can and will hold back
B) characters dropping their guard makes the stupidly vulnerable

"It's a no-kill tourney" Alright, then all feats in the tournament are completely invalid now.

Majora was able to trade blows with 18 for some time until the whole "playing dead" thing happened. You need to also prove that 18's "holding back" would be such that she goes from an infinite level of power (2-C) to a finite level (High 4-C) when she'd have no reason to do so, given that:

1. She's fighting to protect her daughter from being erased
2. She doesn't need to worry about conserving her energy since she's an infinite energy model android

So?
Chronologically speaking majin buu is only hyped to be 2-C after the ToP, wether or not this is a result of passive growth we have nothing to indicate he’d be 2-C during the ToP or any earlier than superhero.

We know how fast characters can grow in power in super so even 2 days of offscreen time is more than enough for back scaling to no longer be feasible, which is why I propose trio de danger be considered 2-C during the ToP and not in the exhibition match when they lose to characters with dubious scaling themselves, bergamo being the only exception as he should be 2-C during the exhibition match.

There's more evidence favoring the idea that the Trio de Dangers didn't get much stronger from the Exhibition Match to the Tournament of Power, as Bergamo vs. Base Goku proves to be rather even in both tournaments, with Goku himself having not gotten much stronger in that time. As such, it's far more plausible that the Trio de Dangers are 2-C in both, and thus Buu would be 2-C

 

[AguilaR202]

All you're saying is "well he could be-" nothing concrete. Prove that he is concretely holding back, especially when the context of the Goku and Gohan fight is that Goku is bored and is looking for a good fight, which he finds via Gohan

Also, you don't need any mental gymnastics lmao. Piccolo telling Gohan to awaken his old self is referring to his Ultimate form, not his previous peak in power (hence why he says "Is Super Saiyan all you can do?" when Gohan goes SSJ2 prior to returning to his Ultimate form). No mental gymnastics, just the most basic level of extrapolation

"It's a no-kill tourney" Alright, then all feats in the tournament are completely invalid now.

Majora was able to trade blows with 18 for some time until the whole "playing dead" thing happened. You need to also prove that 18's "holding back" would be such that she goes from an infinite level of power (2-C) to a finite level (High 4-C) when she'd have no reason to do so, given that:

1. She's fighting to protect her daughter from being erased
2. She doesn't need to worry about conserving her energy since she's an infinite energy model android

There's more evidence favoring the idea that the Trio de Dangers didn't get much stronger from the Exhibition Match to the Tournament of Power, as Bergamo vs. Base Goku proves to be rather even in both tournaments, with Goku himself having not gotten much stronger in that time. As such, it's far more plausible that the Trio de Dangers are 2-C in both, and thus Buu would be 2-C

More likely for Goku to be holding back when it’s repeatedly hammered in that Gohan has been slacking off and falling behind as a result for the majority of super.

And still requires you to interpret the scene as meaning just him regaining the transformations and not the actual levels of power associated with those transformations, like why would there be a need of Gohan regaining Ultimate if his base and SS2 already massively dwarf it

Yeah no, we have SSB Goku surpassing UI as a SSB during the ToP and said form outscales SSB Vegito from earlier, at bare minimum Goku just went and became 1000s of times stronger in a few minutes.

It's a no-kill tourney" Alright, then all feats in the tournament are completely invalid now


straw man, context and character motivations can inform us wether or not they’re actively holding back or not during the tournament ie: Freeza intending to kill Jiren, characters verbatim going all out, etc, Keflas power being stated enough to vaporize Ui Goku.

1. She's fighting to protect her daughter from being erased
2. She doesn't need to worry about conserving her energy since she's an infinite energy model android

She has to hold back or get DQ by killing someone on accident invalidating all her effort for saving the universe, hell the scene leading up to her assisiting krillin with majora had her explicitly holding back and deceived into thinking he killed an opponent.

There are more people willing to say characters get dozens of millions of times stronger in a single day than there are in favor of conservative power growth, even if Gohan started at SS1 Goku levels and 2-C, he’d still have grown over 25,000x times in power during his pre ToP training against Goku, this level of growth isn’t limited to saiyans only.

 

[CloverDragon03]

More likely for Goku to be holding back when it’s repeatedly hammered in that Gohan has been slacking off and falling behind as a result for the majority of super.

Since the end of the Resurrection 'F' arc, Gohan's been training because that arc was a massive wake-up call to the fact that he needed to get stronger to protect those he cares about

And still requires you to interpret the scene as meaning just him regaining the transformations and not the actual levels of power associated with those transformations, like why would there be a need of Gohan regaining Ultimate if his base and SS2 already massively dwarf it

Because SSJ2 isn't Gohan's best form, it's his Ultimate form, and Piccolo knows this because he's seen it himself.

Yeah no, we have SSB Goku surpassing UI as a SSB during the ToP and said form outscales SSB Vegito from earlier, at bare minimum Goku just went and became 1000s of times stronger in a few minutes.

That's most likely the result of a Zenkai due to Goku nearly dying to his Spirit Bomb and then running out of stamina following his usage of Ultra Instinct. There's a difference.

It's a no-kill tourney" Alright, then all feats in the tournament are completely invalid now


straw man, context and character motivations can inform us wether or not they’re actively holding back or not during the tournament ie: Freeza intending to kill Jiren, characters verbatim going all out, etc, Keflas power being stated enough to vaporize Ui Goku.

You're using Frieza and a desperate Kefla as examples? Really?

Frieza, who normally kills people like no tomorrow and will lose his shit at the slightest inconvenience? And Kefla, who was desperate to defeat Goku by any means necessary, thus forgoing the rules? Yeah, these are bad examples

She has to hold back or get DQ by killing someone on accident invalidating all her effort for saving the universe, hell the scene leading up to her assisiting krillin with majora had her explicitly holding back and deceived into thinking he killed an opponent.

Enough to make such a massive drop, though? Definitely not, she was visibly exerting enough effort for that to not be the case.

There are more people willing to say characters get dozens of millions of times stronger in a single day than there are in favor of conservative power growth, even if Gohan started at SS1 Goku levels and 2-C, he’d still have grown over 25,000x times in power during his pre ToP training against Goku, this level of growth isn’t limited to saiyans only.

I don't care which people say what lmao that's just argument from popularity

 

[TimmyTurnero]

At a level of infinity 18 could easily make herself 2x, even a hundred times stronger than anyone she fights, why would she risk being at their level and fighting when she’s clearly aiming to knock them off?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Yea not killing isn't exactly a counterpoint or else they'd just push themselves to one shot territory but not enough to kill territory (which does indeed happen with other characters so its not like it never happens).

 

[AwkguyDB]

Yea not killing isn't exactly a counterpoint or else they'd just push themselves to one shot territory but not enough to kill territory (which does indeed happen with other characters so its not like it never happens).

yeah they literally labeled this in OG DB as Killing Mode its like they can use a level of full power with out killing and go absolutely all out with killing moves, sometimes just using the later just because of how strong the enemy is.

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

It's looks good, put me on agree

 

[Unqver]

I agree

 

[Khanhba01]

agree

 

[AwkguyDB]

I agree but if Botama’s said to be superior via a statement that should be solid rating

(You should also add Sanka Ku who has 2-C justification but high 4-C to the op)

She's at the bottom her name is Kakunsa as her super hero name of kamikaze fireball name

 

[BlackeJan]

I disagree with Krillin scaling. It’s already known that the saiyans were holding back. Let’s also not forget with being caught off guard can “damage” or “push” someone back. Literally SSB Goku did that to Jiren when he was about to shoot Vegeta with a ki blast. Does that mean that Goku should scale to Jiren then?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I disagree with Krillin scaling. It’s already known that the saiyans were holding back. Let’s also not forget with being caught off guard can “damage” or “push” someone back. Literally SSB Goku did that to Jiren when he was about to shoot Vegeta with a ki blast. Does that mean that Goku should scale to Jiren then?

When was the argument for Krillin from the saiyans?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I disagree with Krillin scaling. It’s already known that the saiyans were holding back. Let’s also not forget with being caught off guard can “damage” or “push” someone back. Literally SSB Goku did that to Jiren when he was about to shoot Vegeta with a ki blast. Does that mean that Goku should scale to Jiren then?

Goku actually would be casual Jiren level given that he and Vegeta were tag-teaming and able to pressure a Jiren that was "showing a hint of his true power"

Also... "It's already known." Where's the source?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Thought we already had another thread still in the middle of discussion. I may elaborate again later, but I am still not confident about making every single fighter 2-C.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Thought we already had another thread still in the middle of discussion. I may elaborate again later, but I am still not confident about making every single fighter 2-C.

The first part is very true, I'm like 99% sure there's another thread that's pretty much on this same topic

 

[AwkguyDB]

The first part is very true, I'm like 99% sure there's another thread that's pretty much on this same topic

The threads I seen before focused on the Z fighters (Goten, Trunks, Krillin, Tien and Majin Buu)

my thread focuses on the ToP profiles that have 2-C justifications/feats but still scale to High 4-C with nothing actually to scale to anymore.

 

[AwkguyDB]

However profiles like Majin Buu and Krillin would be directly affected by these upgrades

 

[Eseseso]

IIRC in DBSH Piccolo says Buu could fight the Gammas so 2-C is fine for him.

 

[AwkguyDB]

IIRC in DBSH Piccolo says Buu could fight the Gammas so 2-C is fine for him.

Which would just be additional justification for him if Basil gets upgraded then absolutely Majin Buu should be 2-C for fighting a drugged version of him, having a decent spar against Goku and being considered as a big factor in the fight against the Gammas

 

[omegabronic]

Which would just be additional justification for him if Basil gets upgraded then absolutely Majin Buu should be 2-C for fighting a drugged version of him, having a decent spar against Goku and being considered as a big factor in the fight against the G

It would be another key

 

[AwkguyDB]

Bump

 

[Omegas03]

I disagree with humans being 2-C fra. The rest I agree.

 

[Stryker861]

I havent seen a good reason for the humans not to be 2c tbh

 

[ShakeResounding]

^ This. People are acting as if they couldn't be 2-C while also being abysmally weaker than the other 2-Cs, which we see even amongst the 2-Cs DBS has right now.

 

[SirAlex09]

Agree

 

[Jaakor48]

Humans are not 2c imho, not even close , not only were they almost crap in the ToP, krillin's fight with Gohan says absolutely nothing about their general PLs, I mean Gohan literally handled his attacks effortlessly and slapped him away like nothing
Only after using a solar flare*100 which apparently also blocks ki sensing was he able to disorient Gohan to land a blow that simply knocked him back , and did ko damage at all. Solar flare itself is capable of disorienting a stronger opponent as we saw with Goku vs ape Vegeta

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I agree with the Danger Trio being 2-C for sure (and the Damage Boost/Breath attack addition for Bargomo and Lavender respectively look ok). I'm unsure about everyone else since I don't remember majority of the ToP so I can't say much.