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First of all, I want to clarify that I'M NOT TRYING TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE TIER.
What I'm trying to do here is to "lower" the tier of some characters from "Low 2-C" to "At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C", because I think it's much more consistent. Current victories and losses won't be affected.
I'd like to specify that I like the series, and I'm not doing this because of spite or anything like that, but because I sincerely think that this would be the most accurate tiering for it, which to me is more important than having a verse you like on an high tier via wanking.
I would also like to ask not to close this thread by simply saying "It has already been discussed". I think that most of my points are fair, and since the series ended this could be an occasion to put an end to this. If everything gets debunked you can just link this discussion to whoever tries to do the same thing after me.
Now, let's get started.
I think that a 3-A rating is much more consistent of the current low 2-C one, because the latter doesn't have enough evidence to support it. The current tier scales from Infinite Zamasu, who fused with the universe.
Although it's not relevant to my main point, I'd like to give my opinion on this feat:
1. If a characters shows a feat infinite^2 times more powerful than everything we've ever seen in the series, and no other character (including those supposedly stronger than him) has ever replicated anything of that sort, the feat should be treated as a possible outlier. This is even more true when we have a statement that suggests that he may actually be weaker than before (Goku thought that with Senzus they would've had a chance), which actually seems to make more sense logically (Black was a mortal, so merged Zamasu should've lost half of himself).
2. Omnipresence doesn't scale to ki. Even if Zamasu is low 2-C his only way to attack is by using ki blasts, since he's incorporeal. Those ki blasts don't seem to be 4D (he barely hurt base Goku and Vegeta) and there's no reason to assume that his ki became infinite times more powerful since his soul is still the same as before.
3. Even if we assume that he was a low 2-C with low 2-C power there's a chance that the characters didn't realize that (it would be weird for a 3D character to be able to perceive 4D power, and even the authors don't seem to understand that the difference between universal and universal+ is infinite). Goku's statement about defeating him with a Senzu seems to confirm that. While this doesn't affect Zamasu's tier, it's useful to mention this for later.
As I said before, Zamasu's tier is not the main post of this thread, and even if everything is debunked that would be irrelevant to the following point. The reason I'm trying to "downgrade" the characters is that I don't think we should scale everyone to him.
We currently do so due to Shin saying "He's different from anyone we have faced before. He's strong, plain and simple". However:
1. Scaling 30 characters (Goku, Vegeta, Kefla, Jiren, Toppo, the Grand Priest, 12 angels and 12 GoDs) to Zamasu due to a single statement that's not supported by feats should be avoided, and may look like favoritism.
2. Jiren himself was hurt by 17 (who also managed to block his attack by self-destructing), Hit and SSJB Vegeta, and knocked back by base Frieza and SJBKKx20 Goku (pre-limit break) who are all 3-A. If feats are more important than statements in this wiki it makes more sense to say that Shin's statement is inconsistent rather than say that all of these feats are incongruent with it.
3. Universe 9's kaioshin (who certainly knows Sidra better than we do) stated that Sidra wouldn't be able to erase Frieza easily, and even Sidra himself seemed scared of him. It wouldn't make sense if Sidra was infinite times stronger than Frieza, it's safer to assume that they're at least loosely comparable. This undermines the assumption that all GoDs are low 2-C.
4. Jiren didn't bother to block SSJ2 Goku's attacks, but he started reacting when he transformed into SSJ God. If the difference between them was truly infinite this wouldn't make sense and it looks like Goku closed a finite gap instead (albeit slightly).
5. As I said before, it's possible that the characters did not realize how strong Infinite Zamasu was, which means that the statement could simply refer to merged Zamasu (the 3-A one) as their strongest opponent.
6. The statement doesn't even necessarily mean that Jiren is the strongest enemy they ever fought. "He's different because it's strong, plain and simple" may just mean "He's different, because he doesn't need to rely on time stop, immortality etc. to kick our butts", which would be a comment on what kind of strength he has, not its magnitude.
In short, a single statement about Jiren being stronger than Zamasu is not enough proof to scale 30 characters to him, especially since DB is notorious for its incongruences and both Zamasu's feat and the statement seems to be contradictory with everything else. Even if everything gets debunked there's still not enough proof to confirm the low 2-C tier.
"At least 3-A, possibly low 2-C" would be a better fit. Angels and the Grand Priest should have a "possibly higher" after that. Zen'o is obviously still 2-C. Zamasu's tier is irrelevant to the others so I'm fine with whatever you decide, although I think that "At least 3-A, likely low 2-C, possibly 2-C over time" would be the most accurate.
P.S. I didn't mention the statement about shaking the world of void because I've read here that its infinite size may be a mistranslation ("eternal" darkness rather than "infinite)", although I'm not sure about that. It would make more sense in contest though, since Beerus had no reason to talk about the WoV's size, and it would explain his surprise (he was surprised because the world has always been like that, so he didn't expect the tournament to be held here).
P.P.S. I've followed the wiki for a while, but since I didn't have a fandom account I had to create one. Due to irl stuff I'm not sure if I'll be able to visit the forum in a while, but since I already stated all my points you can just reach a conclusion without me, I'll be fine with your decision.
P.P.P.S. I apologize if this post starts a shitstorm (which often happens when DB is involved), that wasn't my intention.
What I'm trying to do here is to "lower" the tier of some characters from "Low 2-C" to "At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C", because I think it's much more consistent. Current victories and losses won't be affected.
I'd like to specify that I like the series, and I'm not doing this because of spite or anything like that, but because I sincerely think that this would be the most accurate tiering for it, which to me is more important than having a verse you like on an high tier via wanking.
I would also like to ask not to close this thread by simply saying "It has already been discussed". I think that most of my points are fair, and since the series ended this could be an occasion to put an end to this. If everything gets debunked you can just link this discussion to whoever tries to do the same thing after me.
Now, let's get started.
I think that a 3-A rating is much more consistent of the current low 2-C one, because the latter doesn't have enough evidence to support it. The current tier scales from Infinite Zamasu, who fused with the universe.
Although it's not relevant to my main point, I'd like to give my opinion on this feat:
1. If a characters shows a feat infinite^2 times more powerful than everything we've ever seen in the series, and no other character (including those supposedly stronger than him) has ever replicated anything of that sort, the feat should be treated as a possible outlier. This is even more true when we have a statement that suggests that he may actually be weaker than before (Goku thought that with Senzus they would've had a chance), which actually seems to make more sense logically (Black was a mortal, so merged Zamasu should've lost half of himself).
2. Omnipresence doesn't scale to ki. Even if Zamasu is low 2-C his only way to attack is by using ki blasts, since he's incorporeal. Those ki blasts don't seem to be 4D (he barely hurt base Goku and Vegeta) and there's no reason to assume that his ki became infinite times more powerful since his soul is still the same as before.
3. Even if we assume that he was a low 2-C with low 2-C power there's a chance that the characters didn't realize that (it would be weird for a 3D character to be able to perceive 4D power, and even the authors don't seem to understand that the difference between universal and universal+ is infinite). Goku's statement about defeating him with a Senzu seems to confirm that. While this doesn't affect Zamasu's tier, it's useful to mention this for later.
As I said before, Zamasu's tier is not the main post of this thread, and even if everything is debunked that would be irrelevant to the following point. The reason I'm trying to "downgrade" the characters is that I don't think we should scale everyone to him.
We currently do so due to Shin saying "He's different from anyone we have faced before. He's strong, plain and simple". However:
1. Scaling 30 characters (Goku, Vegeta, Kefla, Jiren, Toppo, the Grand Priest, 12 angels and 12 GoDs) to Zamasu due to a single statement that's not supported by feats should be avoided, and may look like favoritism.
2. Jiren himself was hurt by 17 (who also managed to block his attack by self-destructing), Hit and SSJB Vegeta, and knocked back by base Frieza and SJBKKx20 Goku (pre-limit break) who are all 3-A. If feats are more important than statements in this wiki it makes more sense to say that Shin's statement is inconsistent rather than say that all of these feats are incongruent with it.
3. Universe 9's kaioshin (who certainly knows Sidra better than we do) stated that Sidra wouldn't be able to erase Frieza easily, and even Sidra himself seemed scared of him. It wouldn't make sense if Sidra was infinite times stronger than Frieza, it's safer to assume that they're at least loosely comparable. This undermines the assumption that all GoDs are low 2-C.
4. Jiren didn't bother to block SSJ2 Goku's attacks, but he started reacting when he transformed into SSJ God. If the difference between them was truly infinite this wouldn't make sense and it looks like Goku closed a finite gap instead (albeit slightly).
5. As I said before, it's possible that the characters did not realize how strong Infinite Zamasu was, which means that the statement could simply refer to merged Zamasu (the 3-A one) as their strongest opponent.
6. The statement doesn't even necessarily mean that Jiren is the strongest enemy they ever fought. "He's different because it's strong, plain and simple" may just mean "He's different, because he doesn't need to rely on time stop, immortality etc. to kick our butts", which would be a comment on what kind of strength he has, not its magnitude.
In short, a single statement about Jiren being stronger than Zamasu is not enough proof to scale 30 characters to him, especially since DB is notorious for its incongruences and both Zamasu's feat and the statement seems to be contradictory with everything else. Even if everything gets debunked there's still not enough proof to confirm the low 2-C tier.
"At least 3-A, possibly low 2-C" would be a better fit. Angels and the Grand Priest should have a "possibly higher" after that. Zen'o is obviously still 2-C. Zamasu's tier is irrelevant to the others so I'm fine with whatever you decide, although I think that "At least 3-A, likely low 2-C, possibly 2-C over time" would be the most accurate.
P.S. I didn't mention the statement about shaking the world of void because I've read here that its infinite size may be a mistranslation ("eternal" darkness rather than "infinite)", although I'm not sure about that. It would make more sense in contest though, since Beerus had no reason to talk about the WoV's size, and it would explain his surprise (he was surprised because the world has always been like that, so he didn't expect the tournament to be held here).
P.P.S. I've followed the wiki for a while, but since I didn't have a fandom account I had to create one. Due to irl stuff I'm not sure if I'll be able to visit the forum in a while, but since I already stated all my points you can just reach a conclusion without me, I'll be fine with your decision.
P.P.P.S. I apologize if this post starts a shitstorm (which often happens when DB is involved), that wasn't my intention.
