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Even if the first point is correct, he would still be eventually 2-CDeathstroketheHedgehog said:
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DBS tier "revision" (I'm sorry)
- Thread starter IMSOWWY
- Start date
- Status
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- Thread starter
- #42
@AKM sama: I completaly agree when you say the fiction usually doesn't make sense (especially for tier 2 things). In fact, I don't doubt that Goku and the otehrs can perform low 2-C feats. The point is that on this wiki being low 2-C does not only mean being able to destroy an entire space-time continuums, but also having infinite 4D power. What makes things weird is that DB characters can perform feats that require low 2-C power while being less powerful than High 3-A characters.
However, I'm starting to see Azazoth's point. Let's say that in future movies/series Goku shakes multiple universes. Technically speaking this is a 2-C feat, but because of how DB works Goku's power would still be "finite". That doesn't change the fact that he performed a clear 2-C feat. It's more or less what happens in the games. Future Warrior is not infinite times stronger than the various 3-A characters, yet he's still 2-B because he can fight characters that can destroy multiple timelines. So, it may be better to actually prioritize feats like you're currently doing, unless anyone can find a compromise between finite power and infinite feats.
That doesn't necessarily mean that the tier stays as it is though. As Deathstroke said, Zamasu never fully merged with the timeline, meaning that he could be just High 3-A and, as I said, being omnipresent in space-time doesn't automatically make you 4D (see BB and similar characters). Furthermore his attacks never showed 4D power, and both Goku's statement and simple logic actually imply that he got weaker, rather than stronger. He may have 4D durability but nothing suggests that he has 4D AP, especially since the only power he has shown was nothing special. If he's 4D in size but not in AP scaling to him doesn't mean having 4D power, and even if it does it may be High 3-A instead of low 2-C.
However, I'm starting to see Azazoth's point. Let's say that in future movies/series Goku shakes multiple universes. Technically speaking this is a 2-C feat, but because of how DB works Goku's power would still be "finite". That doesn't change the fact that he performed a clear 2-C feat. It's more or less what happens in the games. Future Warrior is not infinite times stronger than the various 3-A characters, yet he's still 2-B because he can fight characters that can destroy multiple timelines. So, it may be better to actually prioritize feats like you're currently doing, unless anyone can find a compromise between finite power and infinite feats.
That doesn't necessarily mean that the tier stays as it is though. As Deathstroke said, Zamasu never fully merged with the timeline, meaning that he could be just High 3-A and, as I said, being omnipresent in space-time doesn't automatically make you 4D (see BB and similar characters). Furthermore his attacks never showed 4D power, and both Goku's statement and simple logic actually imply that he got weaker, rather than stronger. He may have 4D durability but nothing suggests that he has 4D AP, especially since the only power he has shown was nothing special. If he's 4D in size but not in AP scaling to him doesn't mean having 4D power, and even if it does it may be High 3-A instead of low 2-C.
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That's a fair point, and I can agree with that.OuterversalRaditz said:
Regardless, my point still stands that Zamasu's ki never surpassed a 3-A rating, and this was the ki that Beerus and Whis felt.
While I do, in my opinion, think Jiren is Low 2-C, I do want to note that Zamasu wasn't Low 2-C before being erased.
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Infinite Zamasu became one with the entirety of Universe 7, which is a universe with its own separate space-time (cause of the macrocosm). However in Dragon Ball there are numerous universal space-times, dimensions, etc. contained within one big timeline. (Doesn't make too much sense, just like the other things that don't make sense that we have to go with like Azzy said)
Then Infinite Zamasu started leaking into other timelines. Giving further evidence that he was affecting space-time as well.
That's why he's Low 2-C.
Then Infinite Zamasu started leaking into other timelines. Giving further evidence that he was affecting space-time as well.
That's why he's Low 2-C.
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Technically speaking I don't think that leaking in other timelines proves that he finished merging with the one he was in, but I'm fine with that if that's what people think.
However, even if we accept that and decide to not treat it as an outlier, there's still the fact that Zamasu was low 2-C physically, but his ki was never implied to be infinite. Being stronger than Zamasu just means having higher ki, which doesn't scale to 4D power since Zamasu had 3-A ki like everyone else.
And going back to the GoDs, I still think they should be "At least 3-A, possibly low 2-C" regardless of what is decided about Zamasu. Even if we consider Beerus a low 2-C by scaling him to Zamasu that still doesn't prove that everyone is on the same level. As we've seen the title of GoD is something that can be passed from a GoD to a mortal, therefore the weaker the universe average mortal level is the higher is the chance that a weak mortal could be chosen as a GoD due to lack of better alternatives. It makes completely sense for some GoDs to be much weaker than the others, and with the Frieza/Sidra implication that Sidra could be 3-A it could be that only Beerus and a couple of others is low 2-C while the other GoDs are High 3-A or 3-A. Since we don't know which is in which tier a generic "At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C" would make more sense.
However, even if we accept that and decide to not treat it as an outlier, there's still the fact that Zamasu was low 2-C physically, but his ki was never implied to be infinite. Being stronger than Zamasu just means having higher ki, which doesn't scale to 4D power since Zamasu had 3-A ki like everyone else.
And going back to the GoDs, I still think they should be "At least 3-A, possibly low 2-C" regardless of what is decided about Zamasu. Even if we consider Beerus a low 2-C by scaling him to Zamasu that still doesn't prove that everyone is on the same level. As we've seen the title of GoD is something that can be passed from a GoD to a mortal, therefore the weaker the universe average mortal level is the higher is the chance that a weak mortal could be chosen as a GoD due to lack of better alternatives. It makes completely sense for some GoDs to be much weaker than the others, and with the Frieza/Sidra implication that Sidra could be 3-A it could be that only Beerus and a couple of others is low 2-C while the other GoDs are High 3-A or 3-A. Since we don't know which is in which tier a generic "At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C" would make more sense.
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I don't think he merged with all of the timeline. I think he merged with all of the Universe 7 macrocosm (which is still Low 2-C) then started travelling into another timeline. Him travelling into the other timeline is further proof he was affecting space-time as well though.
Infinite Zamasu is a brand new form with no anti-feats against this feat. No reason to deem it an outlier.
I thought your whole point was "feats > statements". Yet despite IZ having an infinite power feat you discard it cause he was never "implied" to have infinite power.
Infinite Zamasu becoming one with and having his presence engulf the entirety of a universal space-time and then some gives him 4-D strength/power. Jiren and others have been nonstop stated to have greater strength/power than Infinite Zamasu.
This "his power is 4-D but his ki is 3-D" thing is just pure headcanon. Especially since ki and power are rather synonymous in Dragon Ball.
Infinite Zamasu is a brand new form with no anti-feats against this feat. No reason to deem it an outlier.
I thought your whole point was "feats > statements". Yet despite IZ having an infinite power feat you discard it cause he was never "implied" to have infinite power.
Infinite Zamasu becoming one with and having his presence engulf the entirety of a universal space-time and then some gives him 4-D strength/power. Jiren and others have been nonstop stated to have greater strength/power than Infinite Zamasu.
This "his power is 4-D but his ki is 3-D" thing is just pure headcanon. Especially since ki and power are rather synonymous in Dragon Ball.
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Like you said, we prioritze feats. It doesn't matter if the character has a finite power level, if he can perform a High 3-A or Low 2-C feat with a finite power level then we have to go by that. If a PL of say 4000 lets you bust a planet in DB and a PL of 10 lets you bust a planet in some other verse, despite having different PL according to their verses they will be equal.
Similarly if a finite PL in DB can do stuff which can only be done by a character of infinite power of some other verse, they both will be equal.
And again, you can apply the same logic to say that kid Goku is infinite^infinite times stronger than farmer with shotgun because there are infinite infinities between any 2 numbers.
Similarly if a finite PL in DB can do stuff which can only be done by a character of infinite power of some other verse, they both will be equal.
And again, you can apply the same logic to say that kid Goku is infinite^infinite times stronger than farmer with shotgun because there are infinite infinities between any 2 numbers.
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@Ryukama: Actually, I said that because the feats suggest so. He DID attack Goku and the others, and he had no reason to hold back, yet he didn't kill them. If his ONLY ap feat is a 3-A there's no proof that he actually has low 2-C ki. Sure, we could call that PIS, but we could also say that becoming infinite times more powerful despite having the same soul (and ki depends on that) is PIS and the 3-A feat is the legit one. What I'm saying is that there are contradictions and instead of labeling one thing or another as just PIS we should consider both as equally valid and accept both tiers. And if we had to choose personally I think that the 3-A tier is much more consistent, since "4D size = 4D ki" is just an assumption, the fact that he didn't kill 3-A characters is a fact, and even statements support that (we don't have any "His power is much higher than before! Maybe even infinite times higher!" statement, but we have a "If only we had a Senzu we could do something"), not to mention that it makes more sense logically (there's no reason to think that dying made his soul infinite times more powerful, especially since his wish was immortality, which can explain a durbility upgrade, but not an ap one).
@AKM: Just to nitpick, the infinite number thing doesn't make sense. 10 is only two times 5, no matter how many numbers there are in between, multiplications are what actually matters here. What I was saying is that low 2-C characters power is not infinite x 3-A power but a finite multiplier, but as I said I'm fine if we ignore that and go by feats, although having a character with finite power on an higher tier than characters with infinite power still sounds weird.
@AKM: Just to nitpick, the infinite number thing doesn't make sense. 10 is only two times 5, no matter how many numbers there are in between, multiplications are what actually matters here. What I was saying is that low 2-C characters power is not infinite x 3-A power but a finite multiplier, but as I said I'm fine if we ignore that and go by feats, although having a character with finite power on an higher tier than characters with infinite power still sounds weird.
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I obviously agree with Ryukama and Azathoth.
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Infinite Zamasu's entire body encompassed and became one with a universal space-time continuum. That is a feat of 4-D strength and power. A weakened Base Goku surviving a blast from him is obvious PIS. The fact that even the kais could deflect that blast makes it especially clear.
When a character who has absolutely no place fighting an explicitly higher being with vastly greater feats than them does, we call it an outlier for that character. Not discard the higher one's feats. Or else I guess we need to downgrade Spectre since his feats are now invalid from Batman kicking him.
Again you only say "feats > statements" when it suits your arguments. Despite Infinite Zamasu blatantly having a feat much stronger than his past forms, you're discarding that just because he wasn't directly stated to be stronger or to be infinitely stronger. By your logic SSB isn't 3-A cause it was never stated that SSB is over 10^40 times stronger than SSJ3.
Infinite Zamasu's feat is blatantly 4-D in strength and power. Since it's been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that the god tiers have greater strength and power than Infinite Zamasu, now you want to downgrade IZ's stats. However there is nothing but an obvious outlier and mere incredulity to support that. IZ is Low 2-C, and the god tiers scale.
When a character who has absolutely no place fighting an explicitly higher being with vastly greater feats than them does, we call it an outlier for that character. Not discard the higher one's feats. Or else I guess we need to downgrade Spectre since his feats are now invalid from Batman kicking him.
Again you only say "feats > statements" when it suits your arguments. Despite Infinite Zamasu blatantly having a feat much stronger than his past forms, you're discarding that just because he wasn't directly stated to be stronger or to be infinitely stronger. By your logic SSB isn't 3-A cause it was never stated that SSB is over 10^40 times stronger than SSJ3.
Infinite Zamasu's feat is blatantly 4-D in strength and power. Since it's been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that the god tiers have greater strength and power than Infinite Zamasu, now you want to downgrade IZ's stats. However there is nothing but an obvious outlier and mere incredulity to support that. IZ is Low 2-C, and the god tiers scale.
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Since things got confused after many replies I'll make the point of the situation.
1. GoDs should be "At least 3-A, possibly low 2-C", because just having the same title doesn't mean being comparable and it's entirely possible that some GoDs are low 2-C while others are 3-A or High 3-A. I explained my reasons above. Nobody still responded to this point ;_;
2. Even in Zamasu is physically low 2-C he may still have 3-A power. Just becoming "bigger" (from a finite 3D being to an infinite 4D being) doesn't make your ki higher, especially if your soul doesn't change. The fact that he didn't one-shot Goku, Vegeta and Trunks and Goku's statement about being able to do something if they still had Senzus seems to confirm that Zamasu's ki didn't become stronger (which was just assumed going by his 4D size, but ki depends on one's soul rather than his size), which seems the most logical explanation. Therefore, as Azazoth said, it's possible to have higher ki than him and still be "weaker" than him.
3. While some elements could be labeled as PIS the same can be done with others. "Zamasu became 4D by dying? PIS, he should've become weaker", "Zamasu is low 2-C and Goku and the otehrs scale to him? PIS, they shouldn't scale to a 4D being if they had finite power until a second ago" etc. What I want to say is that both sides could or could not be true, so we should consider both tiers as equally valid, therefore "At least 3-A, possibly/likely low 2-C (possibly higher for angels and GP)" is the best option. I would understand not wanting to completely "downgrade" the series, but aren't the "possibly" and "at least" keywords used especially for cases like this, where multiple incongruences makes it impossible to discern the tier with 100% accuracy?
1. GoDs should be "At least 3-A, possibly low 2-C", because just having the same title doesn't mean being comparable and it's entirely possible that some GoDs are low 2-C while others are 3-A or High 3-A. I explained my reasons above. Nobody still responded to this point ;_;
2. Even in Zamasu is physically low 2-C he may still have 3-A power. Just becoming "bigger" (from a finite 3D being to an infinite 4D being) doesn't make your ki higher, especially if your soul doesn't change. The fact that he didn't one-shot Goku, Vegeta and Trunks and Goku's statement about being able to do something if they still had Senzus seems to confirm that Zamasu's ki didn't become stronger (which was just assumed going by his 4D size, but ki depends on one's soul rather than his size), which seems the most logical explanation. Therefore, as Azazoth said, it's possible to have higher ki than him and still be "weaker" than him.
3. While some elements could be labeled as PIS the same can be done with others. "Zamasu became 4D by dying? PIS, he should've become weaker", "Zamasu is low 2-C and Goku and the otehrs scale to him? PIS, they shouldn't scale to a 4D being if they had finite power until a second ago" etc. What I want to say is that both sides could or could not be true, so we should consider both tiers as equally valid, therefore "At least 3-A, possibly/likely low 2-C (possibly higher for angels and GP)" is the best option. I would understand not wanting to completely "downgrade" the series, but aren't the "possibly" and "at least" keywords used especially for cases like this, where multiple incongruences makes it impossible to discern the tier with 100% accuracy?
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1. "God of Destruction" is repeatedly referred to as an overall level of power. Like characters such as Goku or Jiren "reaching the power of the gods", "the level of god of destruction", etc. It was also said that if any two GoDs were to fight it'd completely destroy both their respective macrosms. So the Gods of Destruction are relatively comparable and in the universal ranges of power.
2. If Infinite Zamasu is physically 4-D that means he has 4-D strength. And people such as Jiren are explicitly said to be stronger than him. That's just ignoring the fact that strength, power and ki are pretty much synonymous in DB. Again the ki blast thing is very obvious PIS.
3. So the 4 statements of Jiren being stronger than Infinite Zamasu don't matter, yet one statement of Goku saying if he had a senzu bean does? Jiren can't be IZ level despite even WoG saying he is, yet Goku can be based on an unfounded, contradictory statement of his?
Azathoth only said that Infinite Zamasu could still kill Goku and Jiren through time travel. They are still stronger than him, which Azzy has acknowledged. Trunks with his time machine isn't stronger than Jiren.
4. No. Kaioshin and weakened base saiyans survivng attacks from someone who not only has Tier 2 feats, but is in a form stronger than a previous one that was SSB level, is not equally valid as a brand new power up transformation performing a Tier 2 feats. One is clear PIS, the other is just a new and powerful character demonstrating their strength.
2. If Infinite Zamasu is physically 4-D that means he has 4-D strength. And people such as Jiren are explicitly said to be stronger than him. That's just ignoring the fact that strength, power and ki are pretty much synonymous in DB. Again the ki blast thing is very obvious PIS.
3. So the 4 statements of Jiren being stronger than Infinite Zamasu don't matter, yet one statement of Goku saying if he had a senzu bean does? Jiren can't be IZ level despite even WoG saying he is, yet Goku can be based on an unfounded, contradictory statement of his?
Azathoth only said that Infinite Zamasu could still kill Goku and Jiren through time travel. They are still stronger than him, which Azzy has acknowledged. Trunks with his time machine isn't stronger than Jiren.
4. No. Kaioshin and weakened base saiyans survivng attacks from someone who not only has Tier 2 feats, but is in a form stronger than a previous one that was SSB level, is not equally valid as a brand new power up transformation performing a Tier 2 feats. One is clear PIS, the other is just a new and powerful character demonstrating their strength.
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1. There are statements about reaching "the level of Gods" since BoG, we can't just say "all GoDs = low 2-C" because god level is low 2-C. Everything 3-A and above is already "god level" by statements.
2. "strength", "power" and "ki" are pretty much synonimous, but "size" isn't. If Goku ate the "Eat me cakes" from Alice in Wonderland would his ki scale to his new size? No, it wouldn't. It may be a dumb example, but that's basically what happened to Zamasu. He's just a 3-A who became as big as a space-time continuum. His soul is the same, and ki is the power of the soul, it doesn't scale to size.
3. I didn't say any of that. I never said that those statements do not matter, I said that the other statement matters as much as them, so both tier are possibilities. If low 2-C is much more likely than just go with "At least 3-A, likely low 2-C". And I didn't say that Jiren can't be stronger than Zamasu either, I said that Zamasu is a 3-A in a low 2-C body, therefore any stronger 3-A would be "stronger" than him despite being on a lower tier.
I'd also appreciate if you could avoid making me pass for someone who just wants to downgrade DB at all costs. As I said in the main post I like the series, I'm only doing this because I sincerely disagree with the current tier and I prefer verses I like to have accurate profile pages. It's not like "since it's been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that the god tiers have greater strength and power than Infinite Zamasu, now I want to downgrade IZ's stats", because as you can clearly see I mentioned the downgrade in the OP too (what we're discussing is in point 2). I admit that that's what it may look like, and in this case I apologize, but I can assure you that I have no reason to downgrade anyone if not for the fact that I think it's more accurate.
Edit: To clarify, I understand that a 4D being should obviously have 4D power normally, but since Zamasu is incorporeal he can't physically generate energy. If he actually had a body that he could move as he pleases he would be able to punch with 4D power, but since he doesn't his ap scales to his ki, which should be the same as before because only his "body" became 4D, his soul just spread everywhere without actually changing (if not for the fact that he's apparently gone crazy).
2. "strength", "power" and "ki" are pretty much synonimous, but "size" isn't. If Goku ate the "Eat me cakes" from Alice in Wonderland would his ki scale to his new size? No, it wouldn't. It may be a dumb example, but that's basically what happened to Zamasu. He's just a 3-A who became as big as a space-time continuum. His soul is the same, and ki is the power of the soul, it doesn't scale to size.
3. I didn't say any of that. I never said that those statements do not matter, I said that the other statement matters as much as them, so both tier are possibilities. If low 2-C is much more likely than just go with "At least 3-A, likely low 2-C". And I didn't say that Jiren can't be stronger than Zamasu either, I said that Zamasu is a 3-A in a low 2-C body, therefore any stronger 3-A would be "stronger" than him despite being on a lower tier.
I'd also appreciate if you could avoid making me pass for someone who just wants to downgrade DB at all costs. As I said in the main post I like the series, I'm only doing this because I sincerely disagree with the current tier and I prefer verses I like to have accurate profile pages. It's not like "since it's been proven beyond any reasonable doubt that the god tiers have greater strength and power than Infinite Zamasu, now I want to downgrade IZ's stats", because as you can clearly see I mentioned the downgrade in the OP too (what we're discussing is in point 2). I admit that that's what it may look like, and in this case I apologize, but I can assure you that I have no reason to downgrade anyone if not for the fact that I think it's more accurate.
Edit: To clarify, I understand that a 4D being should obviously have 4D power normally, but since Zamasu is incorporeal he can't physically generate energy. If he actually had a body that he could move as he pleases he would be able to punch with 4D power, but since he doesn't his ap scales to his ki, which should be the same as before because only his "body" became 4D, his soul just spread everywhere without actually changing (if not for the fact that he's apparently gone crazy).
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1. Again, any 2 GoDs fighting will destroy both their macrocosms. Meaning that all GoDs are in the universal, and somewhat remotely comparable to one another.
2. If you're 4-D in size you're 4-D in strength. Not 3-D. This is like saying Super Shenron is Building level in strength, despite dwarfing galaxies, because strength =/= size. Or that Whis can throw a Universe level strike, yet his ki is Peak Human, since strength =/= ki and power. These are asinine assumptions.
3. "Infinite Zamasu has a 4-D body with 3-D ki" is pure headcanon. The only thing even remotely supporting this is the clear PIS of kaioshin surviving his blasts.
Infinite Zamasu's body and feats mean he has 4-D strength and power.
Jiren has been stated repeatedly to be stronger and more powerful than Infinite Zamasu. Therefore he also has 4-D strength and power.
Anyways I'm very sorry if I offended you with anything I said. I mean no hard feelings. Thanks very much for being nice and understanding.
2. If you're 4-D in size you're 4-D in strength. Not 3-D. This is like saying Super Shenron is Building level in strength, despite dwarfing galaxies, because strength =/= size. Or that Whis can throw a Universe level strike, yet his ki is Peak Human, since strength =/= ki and power. These are asinine assumptions.
3. "Infinite Zamasu has a 4-D body with 3-D ki" is pure headcanon. The only thing even remotely supporting this is the clear PIS of kaioshin surviving his blasts.
Infinite Zamasu's body and feats mean he has 4-D strength and power.
Jiren has been stated repeatedly to be stronger and more powerful than Infinite Zamasu. Therefore he also has 4-D strength and power.
Anyways I'm very sorry if I offended you with anything I said. I mean no hard feelings. Thanks very much for being nice and understanding.
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1. I suppose I can agree with that, although the Frieza things is still a bit off... but I suppose that's just considered an outlier or something, so I give up. I'm not completely sure if we should take a single statement from a gag episode seriously, but whatever.
2. If you have a body, sure, but Zamasu doesn't. He can't generate energy with physical attacks like any other, he can only attack with ki blasts, so in HIS case power = ki Ôëá size. If Nappa became multi-galaxy sized his physical attacks would become stronger, bacause he could just break galaxies with his fists, but his ki blasts would be the same as before, because his ki didn't change. That's what I think happened to Zamasu, except that he doesn't have a body whose power has increased. However, considering that Jiren also scales to GoDs and GoDs are now low 2-C that wouldn't change anyone's tier anyway.
3. I'm fine with Jiren scaling to IZ since I apparently forgot that the statements were more than one, so it's my fault here.
The most I could try to do is keep pushing for 3-A ap for low 2-C Zamasu or saying that since the characters are not infinite times stronger than 3-As we should consider them 3-As as well and label every feat as an outlier, but I don't see any reason to do so. And tbh, I lowkey think that Goku COULD destroy a space-time continuum, I only opened this thread because I do not think that he has infinite 4D power, but that was resolved some comments ago as "He doesn't, but we pretend he does because he perform low 2-C feats even with finite power", everything else was just nitpick. I STILL think that performing tier 2 feats with 3-A power should be considered as "At least 3-A, possibly low 2-C" anyway, since the first tier would be more accurate AP-wise while the second would be accurate feats-wise, but that depends on this wiki's policy. Knowing that people don't actually think that Jiren with 0.000000001% of his power would stop pre-limit break SSJBKKx1000000000 Vegeth's multiversal Genkidama in canon due to being infinite^2 times stronger is enough for me. Cheers for finite characters with infinite feats!
Fun fact: If the rules said "Even if 4D power should logically be superior to any amount of 3D power some fictional verses use different rules and characters with finite power can perform tier 2 feats. In those cases we scale their AP to their best feats, even if it's treated as lower in the series" or something like that this thread wouldn't even exist.
Just to be sure, if Jiren fought someone with High 3-A (infinite 3D power) barriers would we say "Jiren has low 2-C power so he breaks them" or "Jiren is low 2-C but he has finite power so he can't break them"? I'm pretty sure it would be the first with the wiki's rules and the second in canon, I just want to confirm that.
2. If you have a body, sure, but Zamasu doesn't. He can't generate energy with physical attacks like any other, he can only attack with ki blasts, so in HIS case power = ki Ôëá size. If Nappa became multi-galaxy sized his physical attacks would become stronger, bacause he could just break galaxies with his fists, but his ki blasts would be the same as before, because his ki didn't change. That's what I think happened to Zamasu, except that he doesn't have a body whose power has increased. However, considering that Jiren also scales to GoDs and GoDs are now low 2-C that wouldn't change anyone's tier anyway.
3. I'm fine with Jiren scaling to IZ since I apparently forgot that the statements were more than one, so it's my fault here.
The most I could try to do is keep pushing for 3-A ap for low 2-C Zamasu or saying that since the characters are not infinite times stronger than 3-As we should consider them 3-As as well and label every feat as an outlier, but I don't see any reason to do so. And tbh, I lowkey think that Goku COULD destroy a space-time continuum, I only opened this thread because I do not think that he has infinite 4D power, but that was resolved some comments ago as "He doesn't, but we pretend he does because he perform low 2-C feats even with finite power", everything else was just nitpick. I STILL think that performing tier 2 feats with 3-A power should be considered as "At least 3-A, possibly low 2-C" anyway, since the first tier would be more accurate AP-wise while the second would be accurate feats-wise, but that depends on this wiki's policy. Knowing that people don't actually think that Jiren with 0.000000001% of his power would stop pre-limit break SSJBKKx1000000000 Vegeth's multiversal Genkidama in canon due to being infinite^2 times stronger is enough for me. Cheers for finite characters with infinite feats!
Fun fact: If the rules said "Even if 4D power should logically be superior to any amount of 3D power some fictional verses use different rules and characters with finite power can perform tier 2 feats. In those cases we scale their AP to their best feats, even if it's treated as lower in the series" or something like that this thread wouldn't even exist.
Just to be sure, if Jiren fought someone with High 3-A (infinite 3D power) barriers would we say "Jiren has low 2-C power so he breaks them" or "Jiren is low 2-C but he has finite power so he can't break them"? I'm pretty sure it would be the first with the wiki's rules and the second in canon, I just want to confirm that.
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1. My headcanon is that Roh meant that Sidra erasing Frieza after he already betrayed them would do nothing to fix the consequences of said betrayal. Either way it seems to be a contradiction with other statements and the feats we see in the manga. The "any two gods fighting each other would destroy both universes" isn't at all from a gag episode. It's from one of the ones where Champa and Vados are first being introduced. Don't worry I used to think Sidra didn't scale either so I see where you're coming from.
2. Becoming one with an entire universal space-time is a feat of 4-D power. No other way around it. He is a 4-D being, therefore he has 4-D strength. Being intangible or incorporeal =/= you no longer have strength. Also literally no Dragon Ball character ever has had ki orders upon orders of magnitude lower than their physical punches or overall power. Nor should we assume they do with no evidence.
Infinite Zamasu has feats of 4-D power. There is no reason to downgrade him or to create headcanons of "Well he's a 4-D being and has 4-D strength/power but we're just going to treat his stats as 3-A anyways".
3. It doesn't matter if you or others can't believe that these characters have infinite power if they have feats of infinite power. I can say the same stuff like "No way is SSB over 10^40 times stronger than SSJ3! These characters obviously aren't being treated as that strong!". Feats > author intent, or what we assume author intent was.
2. Becoming one with an entire universal space-time is a feat of 4-D power. No other way around it. He is a 4-D being, therefore he has 4-D strength. Being intangible or incorporeal =/= you no longer have strength. Also literally no Dragon Ball character ever has had ki orders upon orders of magnitude lower than their physical punches or overall power. Nor should we assume they do with no evidence.
Infinite Zamasu has feats of 4-D power. There is no reason to downgrade him or to create headcanons of "Well he's a 4-D being and has 4-D strength/power but we're just going to treat his stats as 3-A anyways".
3. It doesn't matter if you or others can't believe that these characters have infinite power if they have feats of infinite power. I can say the same stuff like "No way is SSB over 10^40 times stronger than SSJ3! These characters obviously aren't being treated as that strong!". Feats > author intent, or what we assume author intent was.
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IMSOWWY, just stop.
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It seems like I made a mistake, I thought that tge statement about GoDs fighting each other came from the baseball episode.
I still think that "Jiren was holding back so being continuosly hurt by 3-As is fine" seems a stretch since even if he was using 0.000001% of his ki he would technically be infinite times stronger than them and treating Zamasu's feat as an outlier would've explained everything, but I'm fine with your decision. As I said I accept Azathoth's explanation.
"Azathoth wrote:
The OP isn't exactly wrong, however I personally think the characters are fine where they are, for right now.
The issue isn't so much that these feats and statements are inconsistent within the show, but that the logic of the show does not work within any other set of rules.
For instance, Goku and Jiren shaking an infinite realm (the world of the void) is a High 3-A feat. This would logically require an infinite amount of energy. However, the difference between Goku and someone like Krillin isn't infinite within the show's setting. Goku can just do this because the imaginary numerical value assigned to his power is bigger. If Krillin's power was also at this imaginary value, he would be able to do this as well, yet he wouldn't be infinitely stronger than he was before within the rules of the show.
Does this make sense? No, not at all. But it's how Dragon Ball treats these things. [...]
We kinda just have to go with it, as it's what the show pushes on us."
This is enough for me. As I said everything after this was basically nitpick, I'm sorry for causing more troubles than I intended.
And judging by Matthew's response I suppose the last post sounded sarcastic while I didn't want to, so I apologize for that as well.
Tl;dr I'm sowwy guys, I guess we can end it here. I won't change my mind about Goku's supposed infinite 4D power being bs, but I understand that there's no other way to make sense of the feats.
You can close the thread if you wish.
I still think that "Jiren was holding back so being continuosly hurt by 3-As is fine" seems a stretch since even if he was using 0.000001% of his ki he would technically be infinite times stronger than them and treating Zamasu's feat as an outlier would've explained everything, but I'm fine with your decision. As I said I accept Azathoth's explanation.
"Azathoth wrote:
The OP isn't exactly wrong, however I personally think the characters are fine where they are, for right now.
The issue isn't so much that these feats and statements are inconsistent within the show, but that the logic of the show does not work within any other set of rules.
For instance, Goku and Jiren shaking an infinite realm (the world of the void) is a High 3-A feat. This would logically require an infinite amount of energy. However, the difference between Goku and someone like Krillin isn't infinite within the show's setting. Goku can just do this because the imaginary numerical value assigned to his power is bigger. If Krillin's power was also at this imaginary value, he would be able to do this as well, yet he wouldn't be infinitely stronger than he was before within the rules of the show.
Does this make sense? No, not at all. But it's how Dragon Ball treats these things. [...]
We kinda just have to go with it, as it's what the show pushes on us."
This is enough for me. As I said everything after this was basically nitpick, I'm sorry for causing more troubles than I intended.
And judging by Matthew's response I suppose the last post sounded sarcastic while I didn't want to, so I apologize for that as well.
Tl;dr I'm sowwy guys, I guess we can end it here. I won't change my mind about Goku's supposed infinite 4D power being bs, but I understand that there's no other way to make sense of the feats.
You can close the thread if you wish.
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There's another statement of the same thing in the baseball episode, so I see where you're coming from.
If Beerus can hold his power back enough for his strike to not kill Bulma, I don't see why Jiren holding back enough for Goku to be able to push back is so unfathomable.
Again the series "not treating" the gap between Goku and Krillin as infinite is completely irrelevant. Just as it "not treating" the gap between SSG and SSJ3 as over 10^40 times doesn't invalidate universal feats.
I tremendously appreciate your kindness and understanding. I don't want you to at all feel bad in the absolute slightest. You just expressed your opinion, and in the most respectful way possible. I'm not going to be upset just because that opinion disagrees with my own.
If Beerus can hold his power back enough for his strike to not kill Bulma, I don't see why Jiren holding back enough for Goku to be able to push back is so unfathomable.
Again the series "not treating" the gap between Goku and Krillin as infinite is completely irrelevant. Just as it "not treating" the gap between SSG and SSJ3 as over 10^40 times doesn't invalidate universal feats.
I tremendously appreciate your kindness and understanding. I don't want you to at all feel bad in the absolute slightest. You just expressed your opinion, and in the most respectful way possible. I'm not going to be upset just because that opinion disagrees with my own.
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Since your answer was so kind, I'll apologize for one last thing. As someone may have suspected I'm not actually a new member of the wiki, this is a new account I created especially to make this thread (which explains why I know a bit about the tier list). Since I don't post much and I tried to downgrade a DB characters in the past (for different reasons than the one stated here) I thought that people would've assumed that I hate DB and I was doing this out of spite, which is not the case, so I decided that pretending to be a new user would be the best way to make sure that everyone would read what I wrote without any prejudice. I know that sockpuppet accounts are not allowed, so I'm sorry for both tricking you and for breaking the rules. I didn't intend to reveal this, but I would feel bad to keep lying after what you wrote lol
I still won't tell the name of my main account tho
(Most people probably never heard of me anyway lol)
I still won't tell the name of my main account tho
(Most people probably never heard of me anyway lol)
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Ya had or would have been outright better off keeping that ta yaself man.
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Doubtful man he just posted on rwby a minute ago meaning he would have needed multiple pc or mobile or ya get me.Therefir said:
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@J-man or he can just switch the profiles from his original to this one.
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Yeah. But within about 15 second or even half that man?. Doubtful.Theglassman12 said:
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@IMSOWWY Sure thing. And thanks. If your other account really didn't get banned, you're always free to come here. And I will assure you that there will be no need to hide. If your opinions are disagreed upon, as long as you present them as kindly as you have, there'll be no issues for you. If others still mistreat you, you can report it.
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Thanks Ryu, I appreciate your kindness.
P.S. The "IMSOWWY" name comes from the fact that "IMSORRY" was already used so I used the closest thing, I normally don't use it so please don't accuse any innocent user because of me, I wouldn't have ammitted that this is a sockpuppet account if I was an active member.
Thanks for everything, next time I'll act like any normal person lol
P.S. The "IMSOWWY" name comes from the fact that "IMSORRY" was already used so I used the closest thing, I normally don't use it so please don't accuse any innocent user because of me, I wouldn't have ammitted that this is a sockpuppet account if I was an active member.
Thanks for everything, next time I'll act like any normal person lol
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