- 8,821
- 9,402
- Thread starter
- #41
Weakened Jiren broke 17’s barriers so he’s still low 2-C.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
DBS low 2-C Revisions
- Thread starter Zamasu_Chan
- Start date
- Status
- 32,315
- 20,163
17 was still exhausted. 17 was more or less on the same level as Base Goku and Final Form Freeza in that fight.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 8,910
- 7,674
17 doesn't get exhausted, though. He has unlimited energy.
- 8,821
- 9,402
- Thread starter
- #44
17 doesn’t scale to his barriers physically so this doesn’t matter.
- 29,881
- 30,890
Most of those 3-A characters were literally stomped by the Low 2-C characters. It follows practices such as "Even chip damage is still AP" or "Getting casually overwhelmed but still withstanding momentarily is still durability". Those have always been things we avoid when it comes to scaling. The only thing "could" argue Low 2-C is Goku being able to do better against Wrath state Broly than SSB Vegeta, but even that is heavily stretchy.
I don't think we should really make any changes at the moment.
I don't think we should really make any changes at the moment.
- 32,315
- 20,163
17's barriers come from his Ki so if he was offensively exhausted the barriers would be weaker too.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 8,910
- 7,674
But, he isn't exhausted. Because, he has unlimited energy.
- 8,821
- 9,402
- Thread starter
- #48
He literally has infinite energy. He can’t get exhausted.
- 29,881
- 30,890
17 has unlimited stamina, but not unlimited endurance. There's a difference. His battery can recharge his KI indefinitely, but the metal he's made of can still be fatigued and eventually receive breakings. He can also still be wounded.
- 32,315
- 20,163
He was pretty ******* exhausted visibly in the Tournament of Power. He was panting and struggling.
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 18,467
- 7,262
True, but he's never stated as being able to get weaker over time. So there is that.
- 8,821
- 9,402
- Thread starter
- #52
It’s energy and stamina. Also since his Ki doesn’t go down and his barrier is make of Ki, the barrier didn’t get any weaker.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 8,910
- 7,674
Weren't the arguments:
- Hit should be "3-A, possibly Low 2-C" based on the fact he consistently took and even blocked, for a rather lengthy period of time at that, blows from 111 Jiren and even managed to make Jiren wince in pain after hitting him with the Flash Fist Crush before knocking him back to the edge of the stage. Along with that, his Cage of Time forced Jiren to struggle in order to move around and break out of it.
- Aniraza should be Low 2-C since he was able to force Super Saiyan Blue Goku, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, Golden Frieza, Android 17, and Ultimate Gohan to struggle in a beam struggle, with Goku having previously broken his limits for a second time, which is what granted him his Low 2-C rating.
- Android 17's barriers should be Low 2-C for defeating Aniraza with them, although he did it by destroying his reactor, a weak point. But on top of that, his barriers were able to block and hold back Jiren's Power Impact and even force Jiren to exert more power in order to push the barrier back. And, his barriers in 127 protected Goku and Vegeta from his own's self-destruction, which completely cancelled out Jiren's Power Impact. In 131, a smaller and weaker barrier contained another self-destruction, although the self-destruction was also weaker.
- 15,277
- 15,438
I agree with ‘possibly Low 2-C’ ToP Hit, Aniraza, and 17’s barriers. Neutral, leaning towards disagree with Low 2-C Baseku.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 8,910
- 7,674
Even if he were physically exhausted, which makes no sense as the Androids were stated to never tire, his power wouldn't diminish as a result, seeing as how his energy is of an unlimited supply, meaning that he couldn't lose any power to fatigue.
- 32,315
- 20,163
He literally went from being able to handle SSB level people to being comparable to Base Goku and Final Form Freeza. He was absolutely weakened Ki-wise. It doesn't matter if he's supposed to have an infinite energy source, he was exhausted and drained.
- 8,821
- 9,402
- Thread starter
- #57
He only got damaged physically but not by much. Besides physical attacks =/= Ki attacks and defenses.
- 8,821
- 9,402
- Thread starter
- #58
No. If 17 was knocked to base Goku tier then he wouldn’t be able to tackle Jiren, block his punches or even use self destruct again.
- 32,315
- 20,163
They were demonstrably weaker.
They even say he released all his energy in that "Suicide attack" and he was struggling to stand up after.
- 32,315
- 20,163
Jiren was weakened too. He was defeated by Super Saiyan Goku and Final Form Freeza.
- 8,821
- 9,402
- Thread starter
- #61
You are straight up not listening to what I’m saying. Jiren was weakened yes, but he was able to content with Golden Frieza. After he was motivated, he got stronger and his aura was able to break A.17’s shield. A.17’s energy doesn’t get exhausted so his shields are the at the same strength level. A.17’s shields were able to block God Toppo’s attacks and was only able to break after rapid fire. I understand if you say he’s physically not on the same level as before, but his Ki is infinite.
Now Base Goku got massive boosts in strength because of UIS, it only makes sense for Base Goku to content with motivated Jiren when he got some rest after UI. Do you understand now?
Now Base Goku got massive boosts in strength because of UIS, it only makes sense for Base Goku to content with motivated Jiren when he got some rest after UI. Do you understand now?
- 32,315
- 20,163
Golden Freeza wasn't Low 2-C at that point.
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 8,910
- 7,674
If Goku and Frieza's base forms at the time were comparable, and Golden Frieza is more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue, shouldn't Golden Frieza have also been Low 2-C in that fight?
- 32,315
- 20,163
The conclusion the requires less jumps in logic is that everyone was weakened.
- 8,821
- 9,402
- Thread starter
- #65
Then it’ll just be an outlier for Frieza.
- 32,315
- 20,163
- 1,826
- 366
I think that when it comes to Ki (Barriers, Blasts etc.) I think that 17 would logically be going all out against someone like Jiren especially in the last fight and due to the fact that he has infinite energy, his Ki attacks shouldn't weaken over the course of a fight. Which supports 17 being at least Low 2-C if his Barrier was at full power and Jiren was able to break them though. Considering God Toppo has to use multiple Ki blasts in order to break the barrier. Base Goku and Frieza though are still iffy in my opinion. Aniraza and Hit are Low 2-C though I agree on that.
- 1,826
- 366
Also to break the ice on this, 17's physical attacks can be weakened over the course of a fight due to him being able to feel pain, but I don't believe that his Barriers should be able to become weakened over the course of a fight due to his limitless energy.
- 32,315
- 20,163
But he even commented about being exhausted.
- 8,821
- 9,402
- Thread starter
- #70
It doesn’t because 17’s energy is artificial, infinite and only comes from his core.
- 32,315
- 20,163
Berserker Kale scaling to Super Saiyan Blue Goku is an outlier because we see later that Kefla needed to go Super Saiyan to handle Blue Goku.
- 14,823
- 12,244
I'm not familiar with Dragon Ball, but why the **** are so many people taking statements of "infinite energy" seriously if we actually ******* SEE it contradicted with characters being visibly exhausted, and commenting about being exhausted?
Why would you ever put statements over feats like this? It's contradicted, so go with what's actually shown.
Why would you ever put statements over feats like this? It's contradicted, so go with what's actually shown.
Last edited:
- 8,821
- 9,402
- Thread starter
- #75
Angaa... 17 was never huffing and puffing and 17 never said he was exhausted. Matt is just blatantly wrong here...
- 14,823
- 12,244
Y'all would have been much more convincing if you said that earlier instead of just repeating "But he has infinite energy!" and not responding to his claims on that.
But thank you for clarifying that now.
But thank you for clarifying that now.
- 8,821
- 9,402
- Thread starter
- #77
It’s actually common knowledge that Android 17 and 18 are infinite energy models. It’s been stated and shown repeatedly since Z.
:/
:/
- 1,890
- 541
Uhhh, SSJ1 Kefla was later compared to the Genkidama.
I don't think BSSJ Kale is Blue level but what you said just means Goku increased his power after the first UI sign trigger.
I wanna add something though, what's the conseus on the rest? I only see the Base Goku topic being regarded but nothing else.
- 14,636
- 20,234
Agree with everything except Low 2-C Base Goku.
- 8,821
- 9,402
- Thread starter
- #80
Their Ki isn’t real Ki. It comes from an energy reactor inside them. Even if they were physically damaged that doesn’t matter, the Ki doesn’t come from their bodies like the other characters in DB. The reactor gives out infinite Ki to it’s maximum output.
So no A.17’s shields weren’t weakened in the slightest.
- Status
Similar threads
