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DBS low 2-C Revisions

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Outputting energy still puts a physical strain on the body. Otherwise characters wouldn't physically struggle with their veins popping out every time they get into a beam struggle or fire a big energy blast. Android 17 was clearly reduced to the same level as a heavily weakened Goku, Freeza and Jiren. Nobody in that final fight is Low 2-C.

Like I said in the previous thread, I could see 17's barrier and Anilaza as Low 2-C.

Hit again, isn't Low 2-C because Jiren was heavily suppressed during that fight and only got serious after he was trapped in the time cage. He was merely playing with Hit. It's like saying early SSB Goku and Vegeta are Low 2-C because they exchanged blows with Jiren.
 
AKM sama said:
Outputting energy still puts a physical strain on the body. Otherwise characters wouldn't physically struggle with their veins popping out every time they get into a beam struggle or fire a big energy blast.
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I already explained why that wouldn’t apply to the androids due to the reactor outputting energy and not their physical bodies.
AKM sama said:
Android 17 was clearly reduced to the same level as a heavily weakened Goku, Freeza and Jiren. Nobody in that final fight is Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
Again you’re just dismissing my argument. Android 17 was still able to use self destruct and said it’ll hurt that time, with Jiren saying “That won’t work twice”. Weakened Jiren survived the SD and motivated Jiren is > weakened Jiren.
AKM sama said:
Like I said in the previous thread, I could see 17's barrier and Anilaza as Low 2-C.

Hit again, isn't Low 2-C because Jiren was heavily suppressed during that fight and only got serious after he was trapped in the time cage. He was merely playing with Hit. It's like saying early SSB Goku and Vegeta are Low 2-C because they exchanged blows with Jiren.
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Okay.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
I already explained why that wouldn’t apply to the androids due to the reactor outputting energy and not their physical bodies.
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Their reactor outputting energy is the reason why they have infinite stamina. According to your logic they should be High 3-A because their reactor is outputting energy and their reactors have infinite energy. No. That's not how it works. It doesn't matter if the Android have infinite stamina, their power output will still decrease if they are injured and hurt.
Zamasu_Chan said:
Android 17 was still able to use self destruct and said it’ll hurt that time, with Jiren saying “That won’t work twice”.
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My above argument takes care of this. "Self-destruct" is just releasing all the energy at once. Since Android 17 was weakened, he wasn't outputting Low 2-C level of power at that moment.
 
Oops. I automatically default to "21" whenever I write "Android".
 
@AKM sama 17's shields aren't limited to his physical statistics. If they were they would be on the same level of his 3-A AP and durability but clearly they aren't. You'd have to actually prove his shields got affected if he was weakened.
 
"Hit again, isn't Low 2-C because Jiren was heavily suppressed during that fight and only got serious after he was trapped in the time cage"

Is there any evidence of Jiren powering down to fight Hit? It does seem he used the same power on him as he did on UIO1 Goku and the Genkidama, and he was toying in that fight too lol.

There's a difference in Hit vs Jiren and Early SSBs vs Jiren anyways
 
Just want to mention that 17 doesn't get weaker when he gets damaged. Piccolo in Z specifically notes this in his fight with him.
 
0174-014.png

It was this one where he was talking about his stamina.
 
17’s regular attacks were only able to stagger base Toppo at best. I’m arguing low 2-C for his shields and SD not his physical stats.
 
I also want to mention that Gohan’s arm war broken but reduced to merely half his strength. 17 only had scratches and bruises, so explain to me how he would even be half as weak.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
In Response to 17 damaging Jiren in his fight with 17, SSBX20 Goku and Blue Evolution Vegeta.
Click to expand...
That's cuz he caught Jiren off guard. If you can catch someone off guard you can hurt even if, normally, they're far stronger than you. EX: when Sorbet sneak attacked Goku.

As for the rest:

I can see Anilaza being Low 2-C due to him overpowering Universe 7's combined offense which included SSB Goku, who was Low 2-C by this point.

Hit, I can possibly see being "At least 3-A, Possibly Low 2-C" for durability. For the most part, Jiren never powers down. The only time he used less power after revealing more was when he fought SSB Vegeta, which he was called out on. So, really the Jiren who fought Hit, was the same Jiren who fought UIO1 Goku. Hit endured an extended beating and kept coming back. That said, I'm not gonna push real hard for that and if

17 having Low 2-C shields I can see. Anything else, no. Dude was shown to be on par with SSB Goku and could contend with Base Toppo who would have overpowered him if not for Frieza's intervention. He has no reason to be rated stronger that wouldn't make sense given the previous feats and limitations he's shown.

Base Goku being Low 2-C...no. The final fight with Jiren was still a 3 vs. 1 at the beginning and it took the combined efforts of both Goku and Frieza to ring Jiren out. That they could do that at all, leaves me thinking that Jiren is not working anywhere near close to capacity. Frieza and 17 before this were able to keep up with Jiren and beat him down, with him only recovering after getting a pep talk from Toppo. Jiren then over powers the two and they need Goku to reinforce them. After that it's base Goku and Frieza clashing with him and hurting him. At this point, it's Jiren vs. three 3-As. Golden Frieza even notes how weak Jiren is a little earlier.

Ergo, Jiren is so weak that Universe 7 can still fight and inconvenience him, ultimately taking him out, whereas before they stood no chance against him even when he was suppressed. As such, I don't think base Goku qualifies for Low 2-C.
 
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Misspoke. Saw Final Form key as First Form in DBS. Read too fast.

But it doesn't change my point. Jiren is way weaker than when he started. He went from being above 20x Low 2-C while still not at full power, to being seriously hurt by 3-A characters.
 
Why Goku and Jiren are low 2-C
I'm arguing Base Goku and Jiren scale to 17's shields, not just to each other. With the shields, 17 can one shot Anilaza and block rapid fire from GoD Toppo. Jiren has a feat cracking the shield with his aura and Base Goku made an even stronger one in the following scene. In this fight Goku and Jiren are able to harm each other. This fight should be an outlier for Frieza because Goku in base was just shown outputting more energy than both 17 and Golden Frieza combined.

Android 17 taking damage doesn't matter
Android 17's shields aren't limited to his physical AP and dura so attacking his body won't weaken his shields.
Evidence?
1) They're not like regular ki attacks. Because of how strong ithey are compared to 17, they shouldn't be limited to his physical stats. In DB ki attacks and physical are equal or at least comparable in strength.
2) Saying his force field's weaken because it uses ki is like saying Hit's time skip slows down as he's damaged because it uses ki. The force field acts as a special ability for 17 because no one else can make shields nearly as potent as he can. Besides, you'd need evidence that Android 17's shields weaken as he takes damage.
3) Even getting damaged isn't a tremendous toll. When Cell broke Gohan's arm due to being stronger of course he only lost half his ki. 17 didn't have any broken limbs and the only major damage he took was the self destruction so he wouldn't be much weaker.
4) The force field doesn't even put any strain on his body like regular ki attacks would. All it takes is a thought to spawn the shield as shown here, here, here, here, etc.

I think there's clear evidence that damaging him wouldn't reduce the shields to 3-A and that they scale.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
I also want to mention that Gohan’s arm war broken but reduced to merely half his strength. 17 only had scratches and bruises, so explain to me how he would even be half as weak.
Click to expand...
Because such drops in power are totally inconsistent. It should also be noted that Gohan did not really exert himself much before that while 17 was constantly blowing him up and taking beatings from Toppo and Jiren.

Anyway, the things that have been accepted here are 17's barrier and Anilaza being Low 2-C. We should make those changes and move on. This is starting to go in circles.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
1) They're not like regular ki attacks. Because of how strong ithey are compared to 17, they shouldn't be limited to his physical stats. In DB ki attacks and physical are equal or at least comparable in strength.
Click to expand...
The shield does depend on ki, yes. It isn't a fixed amount of power the shield will always have, no. That's not how it works, the shield will only have enough power as 17 decides to use.
Zamasu_Chan said:
2) Saying his force field's weaken because it uses ki is like saying Hit's time skip slows down as he's damaged because it uses ki.
Click to expand...
Again, it's not a special ability or a hax like time skip. That's the most illogical thing I have heard. It's a special application of his ki. This is like saying Kamehameha is a special ability and generates a fixed amount of power and it doesn't depend on the amount of power the user decides to put in it. It's the same thing.
Zamasu_Chan said:
4) The force field doesn't even put any strain on his body like regular ki attacks would. All it takes is a thought to spawn the shield as shown here, here, here, here, etc.
Click to expand...
All it takes is a thought for Tatsumaki and Mob to use their telekinesis. Yet telekinesis puts physical strain on the body and you can see that when they try to push their limits. You're literally going out of your way to make stupid arguments at this point. Just because something doesn't require any action to do, doesn't mean it won't cause physical strain, especially given how it's an energy attack and energy is being spent on it.
 
I wasn't in the previous thread, but this has been discussed before and dropped because it's from a promotional manga for the RoF movie, not Chou.

As for Piccolo wiping away a city, you can see it's only a few blocks. The characters are likely using hyperbole.
 
So 2 things.

1. I agree with the upgrades to low 2-C fra

2. From the previous thread that is linked, yes Roshi's moon feat is consistent with

* Piccolo stating he is able to destroy the world regardless of the ramifications.
* the guides confirming not just the power of Roshis moon level attack, but also stating outright Goku's Super Kamehameha had superior power to that particular feat.
* Kami and Shenorn being able to create the moon and being comparable to each other, and King Piccolo being able to Kill Shenron.
* A suppressed BoZ Piccolo being able to casually obliterate the moon with far beyond moon level power, despite his power not being far beyond what it was in the 23 Budokai.

Also, officially Goku literally had a PL of 910 according to v-jump while using a super kamehameha against Piccolo Jr, and 924 when using it against Raditz, so their power increase was quantifiably negligible. And before people flip out about mentioning power levels, yes they are not an exact science, but they do indicate consistently who is stronger and who is comparable, as long as they aren't suppressed, that was their entire function while they were being used up to the Frieza battle.

Also its not so inconsistent, you could easily argue Buff Roshi is still more powerful than 22 Budokai Goku or Tien as its a temporary amped form, and he was still somewhat comparable to them without it. Its not till Old King Piccolo arrives and Roshi says that they stand no chance, even if they all attacked together, and he felt his only option was Mafuba that you could really comfortably scale the feat.

The only counter points are "daizenshuu says his attack is like a small nuclear bomb", which is a secondary statement from a guide that contradicts itself since a small nuke isn't city level. And it contradicts the multiple other statements and showings above. Or "Piccolo was tired from an island level attack", which is again ridiculous since ki control is a very real thing that has existed since early DB, Roshi directly states he held back on mount frying pan, and Goku and roshi literally fire Kamehameha's full force that can target a single body like Tao, or even better the Dodon ray can target just the chest but get past their durability. And we have it sandwiched between Roshis moon beam and beginning of Z Piccolos well beyond moon beam making it the inconsistent feat if you insist on taking that interpretation of island level is his cap, which is never even stated.

Roshi's moon beam as being an outlier is a relic from the OBD with inconsistent, secondary source, bad reasoning to back it up. Its the equivalent of the old Cell not being a Solar system buster, or nobody in DBZ being ftl despite the overwhelming evidence.
 
C2_of_Omegon said:
Hit, I can possibly see being "At least 3-A, Possibly Low 2-C" for durability. For the most part, Jiren never powers down. The only time he used less power after revealing more was when he fought SSB Vegeta, which he was called out on. So, really the Jiren who fought Hit, was the same Jiren who fought UIO1 Goku. Hit endured an extended beating and kept coming back
Click to expand...
Y'all haven't addressed this @AKM sama @Zamasu_Chan
 
@ Zamasu I don't see where that part is stated in that interview. All I can see is him saying that Jiren was not able to use his "full power against freeza" because he had already lost to Goku. That implies he was talking about the power Jiren had available at that point only. Unless you'd think that somehow he was talking about how Jiren has to use his full power against Freeza which he did not use even against UI Goku. And that makes no sense. Also, can you update the OP with only the Low 2-C stuff so that it's clear what we are talking about in this thread.

@ SSJRyu You can make those arguments about Roshi later when a thread for that is created.

@ Omegas Vegeta called it out because he feels a constant sense of competition with Goku and clearly did not like Jiren using less power on him. But just because Vegeta called it out does not mean everybody else has to call out the same. The "Jiren never powers down" is completely unsubstantiated and never stated in the show.
 
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C2_of_Omegon said:
That's cuz he caught Jiren off guard. If you can catch someone off guard you can hurt even if, normally, they're far stronger than you. EX: when Sorbet sneak attacked Goku.

As for the rest:

I can see Anilaza being Low 2-C due to him overpowering Universe 7's combined offense which included SSB Goku, who was Low 2-C by this point.

Hit, I can possibly see being "At least 3-A, Possibly Low 2-C" for durability. For the most part, Jiren never powers down. The only time he used less power after revealing more was when he fought SSB Vegeta, which he was called out on. So, really the Jiren who fought Hit, was the same Jiren who fought UIO1 Goku. Hit endured an extended beating and kept coming back. That said, I'm not gonna push real hard for that and if

17 having Low 2-C shields I can see. Anything else, no. Dude was shown to be on par with SSB Goku and could contend with Base Toppo who would have overpowered him if not for Frieza's intervention. He has no reason to be rated stronger that wouldn't make sense given the previous feats and limitations he's shown.

Base Goku being Low 2-C...no. The final fight with Jiren was still a 3 vs. 1 at the beginning and it took the combined efforts of both Goku and Frieza to ring Jiren out. That they could do that at all, leaves me thinking that Jiren is not working anywhere near close to capacity. Frieza and 17 before this were able to keep up with Jiren and beat him down, with him only recovering after getting a pep talk from Toppo. Jiren then over powers the two and they need Goku to reinforce them. After that it's base Goku and Frieza clashing with him and hurting him. At this point, it's Jiren vs. three 3-As. Golden Frieza even notes how weak Jiren is a little earlier.

Ergo, Jiren is so weak that Universe 7 can still fight and inconvenience him, ultimately taking him out, whereas before they stood no chance against him even when he was suppressed. As such, I don't think base Goku qualifies for Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
To add to justification for 17's shields being Low 2-C : He also used his shields to deal the final blow to Anilaza
 
I will make the accepted changes and then close this thread in a little while then.

@Zamasu_Chan Can you update the OP so that it only contains stuff about the DBS anime Low 2-C revision from the previous thread?
 
We need a CRT for Chou characters from BOG too. Let's if Base Goku and others could be 3-B in base form.
 
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