Darker Than Black - Buffs and fixes

[LordGinSama]

Actually this is a pretty easy thing to counter despite the length and effort DontTalk wrote.


Severing the connections of electrons is what Harvest does, going by what was posted above this makes it Atomic in nature. However, Hei's application of matter Manipulation scales above that of Harvest as Harvest indirectly messes with electrons by cutting the connections of the electron cloud. Hei on the other, doesn't indirectly Manipulation electrons in the same way that Harvest does Hei directly manipulates them. Harvest is just more lethal with his application of matter Manipulation but Hei's is above what Harvest is capable of as stated by the best scientist in the verse, making it superior to Atomic level matter Manipulation.



Hei's application of matter Manipulation is above Harvest's which is Atomic, and is stated to alter substances on a quantum level. I still think with this there's more than enough evidence for sub atomic destruction going by Hei's ability which is much more explicit.



This should especially apply to Hei's South America feat since the Meteor Fragment amplifies a Contractors abilities ans Hei's at base alters and frys electrons without indirect Manipulation.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

 

[DontTalkDT]

Actually this is a pretty easy thing to counter despite the length and effort DontTalk wrote.


Severing the connections of electrons is what Harvest does, going by what was posted above this makes it Atomic in nature. However, Hei's application of matter Manipulation scales above that of Harvest as Harvest indirectly messes with electrons by cutting the connections of the electron cloud. Hei on the other, doesn't indirectly Manipulation electrons in the same way that Harvest does Hei directly manipulates them.



Hei's application of matter Manipulation is above Harvest's which is Atomic, and is stated to alter substances on a quantum level. I still think with this there's more than enough evidence for sub atomic destruction going by Hei's ability which is much more explicit.



This should especially apply to Hei's South America feat since the Meteor Fragment amplifies a Contractors abilities ans Hei's at base alters and frys electrons without indirect Manipulation.

Hei's application of matter manipulation still deals exclusively with electrons. The explosion specifically also was electrons behaving strangely. Electrons are quants, so it is on the quantum level. However, electrons still are not part of the nucleus and not part of what holds the nucleus together. It being quantum level doesn't automatically mean it deals with splitting the nucleus.
Hei could erase the electrons from existence and he still wouldn't fulfil the requirements of splitting the nucleus, because as my post above explained in length, the nucleus and what holds it together is completely unrelated to any sort of electron action.

Your argument is basicaly like saying: Character A can manipulate raindrops. Raindrops are smaller than buildings. Therefore character A destroyed buildings.

 

[LordGinSama]

It's also worth noting that Harvest's ability might be a mistranslation as Darker Than Black Shikkoku no Hana has never been localized into English only Italian and Spanish so unfortunately all we have to work with are the fan translations.

Hei's application of matter manipulation still deals exclusively with electrons. The explosion specifically also was electrons behaving strangely. Electrons are quants, so it is on the quantum level. However, electrons still are not part of the nucleus and not part of what holds the nucleus together. It being quantum level doesn't automatically mean it deals with splitting the nucleus.
Hei could erase the electrons from existence and he still wouldn't fulfil the requirements of splitting the nucleus, because as my post above explained in length, the nucleus and what holds it together is completely unrelated to any sort of electron action.

So then we'll have to use Atomic values as a low ball since they are indeed manipulating matter past an Atomic level. I'll have the calc adjusted then, I appreciate the input.


Although from what I recall Saint Seiya characters use Sub Atomic destruction for the exact reason so that'll have to be adjusted as well.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Although from what I recall Saint Seiya characters use Sub Atomic destruction for the exact reason so that'll have to be adjusted as well.

This calculation has been rejected and refuted more than a hundred times. I don't even know why it's still being used

 

[CloverDragon03]

If sub-atomization isn't good, I think atomization should still be fine.

Also @DontTalkDT for the first feat, you said the "0.25 * diameter" wasn't good for the depth. What should I do instead?

 

[DontTalkDT]

So then we'll have to use Atomic values as a low ball since they are indeed manipulating matter past an Atomic level. I'll have the calc adjusted then, I appreciate the input.


Although from what I recall Saint Seiya characters use Sub Atomic destruction for the exact reason so that'll have to be adjusted as well.

I guess it will, if it uses it for that reason.

However, I still wonder why atomic values when it technically never states that atomization happens. It technically goes more for moleculization.

All of that said, I still disagree on the feat scaling to anyone. The feat is indicated to be both of them using their powers at a higher level than usual and treating it as such is vastly more consistent, than to assume the opposite and ignore contradictory lower end showing of much lesser scale.

Hei's ability allows him to slow the decomposition of things, this in turn wouldn't render the KE of an explosion null for obviously reason. Their powers were the catalyst of the explosion, their durability on the other hand wouldn't be reliant on their abilities as Harvest can be affected by his own ability.

I'd have to agree with you normally but this is different, they took the KE of the explosion point blank with no armor that would help them out. (Electricity in Hei's case and Deconstruction in Harvest's case.) so their durability would scale, and they can harm each other physically.

The KE of the explosion doesn't scale to the atomization, though. So if they only tanked the KE by normal means their durability doesn't scale. They would have to tank the atomization power via non-boosted means and IMO they were boosted by resonating in the respect.

Also @DontTalkDT for the first feat, you said the "0.25 * diameter" wasn't good for the depth. What should I do instead?

I mean, you could calculate the atomization of the air, if we end up using that.

For the ground, you would need to find another way to scale it, though. Honestly, I think the "explosion" probably was a circle, as it was more so the range in which decomposition happened.

 

[Urshani]

This calculation has been rejected and refuted more than a hundred times. I don't even know why it's still being used

why and how

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yee disagree and agreeing with this ↓

All of that said, I still disagree on the feat scaling to anyone. The feat is indicated to be both of them using their powers at a higher level than usual

 

[LordGinSama]

I guess it will, if it uses it for that reason.

However, I still wonder why atomic values when it technically never states that atomization happens. It technically goes more for moleculization.

It's Deconstruction and Harvest explicitly scales above Contractors who deconstruct molecules. Deconstruction of molecules results in liquidation, Harvest goes many times beyond this.

All of that said, I still disagree on the feat scaling to anyone. The feat is indicated to be both of them using their powers at a higher level than usual and treating it as such is vastly more consistent, than to assume the opposite and ignore contradictory lower end showing of much lesser scale.

I'll have to disagree with this, as again they clash several times to no negative effect to either one of them, and there really isn't much lower end feats in the verse. Actually Hei and Harvest don't have any anti feats and there's only about 3 feats in the series, this one, South America and the Tokyo Explosion all of which yield consistent results to one another.

The KE of the explosion doesn't scale to the atomization, though. So if they only tanked the KE by normal means their durability doesn't scale.

Define "normal means." the explosion itself is what's responsible for the atomization, as they're essentially creating a nuclear explosion with their powers.


So should we calc the KE of the explosion as well?

They would have to tank the atomization power via non-boosted means and IMO they were boosted by resonating in the respect.

They didn't get a boost in durability, the only way they get a boost (and by unconventional means.) is by utilizing their armor which acts more to deconstruct attacks as opposed to increasing their own inherent durability.




The resonating is the result of their abilities clashing, so the result would be havled due to being a result of their power interacting with one another.


And they don't get a boost in terms of how much energy they produce, it's just that when they interact there's a positive and negative reaction happening, they tank said explosion hence why they had burns and marks on them (and due to neither one of the characters having means to increase their durability in any fashion they'd be withstanding the force with their natural durability.) and they match each other and harm one another.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yee disagree and agreeing with this ↓

Which is wrong. Matter of fact you can tell me why you agree with that with your own reasoning rather than riding a random argument on which you have no context nor understanding of.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Gin makes more sense to me at the moment.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Which is wrong.

I guess I'm natural again, not fully certain but from the manga it implies when they two interact with each other is only when it happens. Which shouldn't really scale

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, you could calculate the atomization of the air, if we end up using that.

For the ground, you would need to find another way to scale it, though. Honestly, I think the "explosion" probably was a circle, as it was more so the range in which decomposition happened.

How does one even do that? I know there's a Joules/cc atomization value for rock, but is there one for air?

 

[LordGinSama]

At worst they'd just downscale from the explosion as they were in the epicenter, and they can harm one another so they'd have AP comparable to their durability.



Even if they don't scale directly to the explosion they'd still end up scaling one way or another due to them tanking it and being able to harm one another.

 

[CloverDragon03]

At worst they'd just downscale from the explosion as they were in the epicenter, and they can harm one another so they'd have AP comparable to their durability.



Even if they don't scale directly to the explosion they'd still end up scaling one way or another due to them tanking it and being able to harm one another.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. The fact that they're at the epicenter of the explosion and they can trade blows with each other, take hits from each other, and harm each other all leads me to believe they would scale.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yeah basically, especially since they have no way to increase their durability by any means. The resonating also didn't increase their power, it just created a negative reaction which resulted in the explosion.


The only thing that increases a Contractor's ability is the Meteor Fragment, powers resonating don't, the resonating just results in a violent reaction and is a direct result of the both of them clashing.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

why and how

Literally on the matter manipulation page they are listed as atomization, not subatomization. Also, in the crater itself there are several fragments, which means that it is not even pulverization

 

[Urshani]

Literally on the matter manipulation page they are listed as atomization, not subatomization. Also, in the crater itself there are several fragments, which means that it is not even pulverization

so is Saint Seiya low tiers now tier 8 now

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Actually they have some earthquake feats as far I know

 

[Urshani]

enough derailing, i agree with gin

Actually they have some earthquake feats as far I know

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Matter of fact you can tell me why you agree with that with your own reasoning rather than riding a random argument on which you have no context nor understanding of.

Ok.... Really. I never do that, I use my own brain to agree or disagree. If someone explains it better I will agree with someone. Not gonna lie this sound fishy af... It makes no sense to me that because they can manipulate electrons and stuff, it will make them scale to something that only happens when both of them attack each other. For example if you combine oil or gunpowder with fire it will increase the potency or size of it...

I'm trash at EXPLAINING!!!!!!

 

[DontTalkDT]

How does one even do that? I know there's a Joules/cc atomization value for rock, but is there one for air?

I don't think we have one yet, so you would probably need to calculate one.
Air is mostly Oxygen and Nitrogen. So first you will want to figure out how many molecules of each of those are in the air. This should help (the molar percentages).
Oxygen mostly occurs as O=O and Nitrogen mostly as N≡N, I believe. According to this the energy to break those covalent bonds is 498 kJ/mol of Oxygen molecules and 945 kJ/mol for the Nitrogen molecules. With that, you can get the atomization energy.

It's Deconstruction and Harvest explicitly scales above Contractors who deconstruct molecules. Deconstruction of molecules results in liquidation, Harvest goes many times beyond this.

Does have upscale in terms of volume or in terms of fineness of decomposition, though?

I'll have to disagree with this, as again they clash several times to no negative effect to either one of them, and there really isn't much lower end feats in the verse. Actually Hei and Harvest don't have any anti feats and there's only about 3 feats in the series, this one, South America and the Tokyo Explosion all of which yield consistent results to one another.

They clash several times, but this time was the only time their powers resonated like that (except maybe at the very end when they are boosted anyways).

And what do you mean they have no lower end feats? It's said in like episode 2 that Hei's bulletproof coat is what protects him from regular guns. Same episode he gets injured by a rando contractor that makes a sack of peas (or something) explode. The same peas bounced all over the place and did little more damage than some smashed plates and other shot humans. Seriously doubt those were 6-B.

I'm sure I could find more pretty questionable instances if I looked into more than the first two episodes.

Define "normal means." the explosion itself is what's responsible for the atomization, as they're essentially creating a nuclear explosion with their powers.

No. They are using powers to influence electrons to cut some bonds between molecules (or atoms). They don't cause an explosion so hard that things atomize and they also don't cause a nuclear explosion.

There is no reason to assume the explosion itself is comparable in scale to the energy spent on the decomposition, as it isn't caused by the same power.

So should we calc the KE of the explosion as well?

I'm not sure if you can? I mean, the destruction in the range of the explosion is caused not by the shockwave, but by their powers disintegrating matter. At least, that is what is assumed to this point. (And if that weren't assumed you couldn't use atomization or whatever to calculate the feat, since the destruction amount wouldn't be the entire area covered by the sphere of destruction they produce)
You could of cause, for example, calculate how strong the shockwave would need to be to launch them as far apart as it did. If that's what you want, be my guest. I don't think it will be very high, but that would indeed be applicable to their durability. It's just that the same doesn't go for the electron-based disintegration phenomenon.

They didn't get a boost in durability, the only way they get a boost (and by unconventional means.) is by utilizing their armor which acts more to deconstruct attacks as opposed to increasing their own inherent durability.

They didn't get a boost in conventional durability, yes, but they probably got a boost in their ability to resist the matter deconstruction that was going on.

The resonating is the result of their abilities clashing, so the result would be havled due to being a result of their power interacting with one another.

And they don't get a boost in terms of how much energy they produce, it's just that when they interact there's a positive and negative reaction happening, they tank said explosion hence why they had burns and marks on them (and due to neither one of the characters having means to increase their durability in any fashion they'd be withstanding the force with their natural durability.) and they match each other and harm one another.

By what was implied I don't think so. Like, if they were half as strong as the feat each, then the scientist wouldn't have such a problem with them specifically fighting each other. Harvest alone would still be almost as strong then, after all. The resonance in particular caused a special phenomenon of making the electrons behave weirdly. That happens at times (e.g. Dragon Ball fusion or the Liquid Proof Railgun in To Aru)

 

[LordGinSama]

Will reply to the above in about an hour or so.

 

[LordGinSama]

I don't think we have one yet, so you would probably need to calculate one.
Air is mostly Oxygen and Nitrogen. So first you will want to figure out how many molecules of each of those are in the air. This should help (the molar percentages).
Oxygen mostly occurs as O=O and Nitrogen mostly as N≡N, I believe. According to this the energy to break those covalent bonds is 498 kJ/mol of Oxygen molecules and 945 kJ/mol for the Nitrogen molecules. With that, you can get the atomization energy.

Does have upscale in terms of volume or in terms of fineness of decomposition, though?

The latter, the fineness is what they scale above, one of the Contractors actually have better range than the both of them albeit cannot effect matter on the same level.

They clash several times, but this time was the only time their powers resonated like that (except maybe at the very end when they are boosted anyways).

Which is irrelevant? They both ate the explosion point blank due to them being the two catalysts.

At the end they were indirectly boosted.

And what do you mean they have no lower end feats? It's said in like episode 2 that Hei's bulletproof coat is what protects him from regular guns. Same episode he gets injured by a rando contractor that makes a sack of peas (or something) explode. The same peas bounced all over the place and did little more damage than some smashed plates and other shot humans. Seriously doubt those were 6-B.

Argument from Disbelief isn't an argument to address first of all, you as an Administrator should know this. Secondly those are feats from season one, Shikkoku no Hana is set after the events of Season one where Hei gets both stronger and more experienced with his abilities. Hei was literally taking gunfire to the face in Shikkoku no Hana without any damage, so that's inapplicable to try to discredit him.


And it isn't 6-B+ anymore but rather 7-C.

I'm sure I could find more pretty questionable instances if I looked into more than the first two episodes.

And as I said above, feats from Season 1 where Hei is both younger, weaker and vastly more inexperienced than his Shikkoku no Hana self. There's also dozens of feats from Harvest which would support this, and I can even get those calculated.

No. They are using powers to influence electrons to cut some bonds between molecules (or atoms). They don't cause an explosion so hard that things atomize and they also don't cause a nuclear explosion.

No, that's again only what Harvest does, not Hei and the feat is 50/50, this is just Harvest's ability to deconstruct. It's an explosion formed by the clash of the two Contractors, and i never said it's a nuclear explosion I said it's akin to the process of one more or less. Which is pretty similar to what's stated here.

And said explosion atomized a girl and sent Hei and Harvest flying, if this was just an application of things being deconstructed then no force would be present to launch them, the ground beneath them would be what's affected if that were the case with no explosion.

There is no reason to assume the explosion itself is comparable in scale to the energy spent on the decomposition, as it isn't caused by the same power.

The explosion is what decomposed the surrounding area, Hei's ability blatantly and explicitly slows down the process of Deconstruction meaning that Harvest's ability would have been severely hampered here. Hei's ability is a direct counter to Harvest's, greatly slowing down his Deconstruction and yes it is indeed caused by the same power, that being the manipulation of electrons between the two of them, resulting the near by electrons to respond violently.

I'm not sure if you can? I mean, the destruction in the range of the explosion is caused not by the shockwave, but by their powers disintegrating matter. At least, that is what is assumed to this point. (And if that weren't assumed you couldn't use atomization or whatever to calculate the feat, since the destruction amount wouldn't be the entire area covered by the sphere of destruction they produce)

Hei's ability doesn't deconstruct things at this point in the manga, he unlocks the ability at a later date. Expect the explosion is what causes it, positive and negative electrons respond to one another negatively, triggering a massive explosion, with both character's being able to effect electrons.

You could of cause, for example, calculate how strong the shockwave would need to be to launch them as far apart as it did. If that's what you want, be my guest. I don't think it will be very high, but that would indeed be applicable to their durability. It's just that the same doesn't go for the electron-based disintegration phenomenon.

That's perhaps a possibility but that's a possibility I'd have to disagree with using, they stood at the center of the explosion which is what caused the area around them to get destroyed.

They didn't get a boost in conventional durability, yes, but they probably got a boost in their ability to resist the matter deconstruction that was going on.

This is like, literally never stated nor implied anywhere. Harvest doesn't have a resistance to Deconstruction, and Hei's resistance to Deconstruct is only when he uses electricity around his entire body which he isn't doing here. I'm not sure where you really got this perspective from but this is entirely made up on your end.

By what was implied I don't think so. Like, if they were half as strong as the feat each, then the scientist wouldn't have such a problem with them specifically fighting each other.

Context DT, Context is what matters here. When the two fight they're essentially nukes, the scientist didn't want to fighting any longer due to the amount of destruction they'd cost and the attention they'd get from the Government.

Harvest alone would still be almost as strong then, after all. The resonance in particular caused a special phenomenon of making the electrons behave weirdly. That happens at times (e.g. Dragon Ball fusion or the Liquid Proof Railgun in To Aru)

This isn't inherently true either, Harvest would scale to his end of the feat (which is half.) The resonance is a result of Hei's and Harvest's power directly clashing with one another, triggering a massive explosion in the process. (Which is evident as they both have cuts, burns and marks from the Blast, and neither is resistant to matter Manipulation normally so this makes the argument of the explosion not being the cause moot.)




This is something that nearly everyone here disagrees with you on with all due respect.

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump.



If it's fine i think there's more than enough agreements to implement the ratings given the debunks above but I'll keep this thread open for awhile longer.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The latter, the fineness is what they scale above, one of the Contractors actually have better range than the both of them albeit cannot effect matter on the same level.

Who is that again?

Which is irrelevant? They both ate the explosion point blank due to them being the two catalysts.

My point was just that if this clash doesn't scale them, no clash would.

Argument from Disbelief isn't an argument to address first of all, you as an Administrator should know this. Secondly those are feats from season one, Shikkoku no Hana is set after the events of Season one where Hei gets both stronger and more experienced with his abilities. Hei was literally taking gunfire to the face in Shikkoku no Hana without any damage, so that's inapplicable to try to discredit him.

That wasn't an argument from disbelieve. Peas bouncing around without causing environmental damage have plenty of reason to not be 6-B.

I don't see why Hei's durability should have increased by a million times between seasons, but sure, give me some time and we will see if I can find similar stuff in season two.

No, that's again only what Harvest does, not Hei and the feat is 50/50, this is just Harvest's ability to deconstruct. It's an explosion formed by the clash of the two Contractors, and i never said it's a nuclear explosion I said it's akin to the process of one more or less. Which is pretty similar to what's stated here.

And said explosion atomized a girl and sent Hei and Harvest flying, if this was just an application of things being deconstructed then no force would be present to launch them, the ground beneath them would be what's affected if that were the case with no explosion.

No, the scientist explicitly tells us, and I quote, "I fear if they attack each other head-on, the electrons may react like this in unknown ways". It's pretty clear that what happened is the result of both of their abilities to influence electrons affecting the environment.

The manga even shows us how the shoe that was caught in it continues dissolving after leaving the phenomenon. That can't be caused by simple explosion damage.

In general, if not for that quote you couldn't justify the girl even being atomized instead of simply getting ripped to pieces or pulverized or vaporized.

The explosion is what decomposed the surrounding area, Hei's ability blatantly and explicitly slows down the process of Deconstruction meaning that Harvest's ability would have been severely hampered here. Hei's ability is a direct counter to Harvest's, greatly slowing down his Deconstruction and yes it is indeed caused by the same power, that being the manipulation of electrons between the two of them, resulting the near by electrons to respond violently.

No, the explosion is a phenomenon that happens as a side effect of the decomposition. By all we know there is no reason to believe that it is the cause of it and enough to believe it isn't. It could, for example, be caused by the density change of the decomposed materials.

I never suggested that this is caused by Harvest's ability alone. As said, it's a result of their abilities resonating.

Hei's ability doesn't deconstruct things at this point in the manga, he unlocks the ability at a later date. Expect the explosion is what causes it, positive and negative electrons respond to one another negatively, triggering a massive explosion, with both character's being able to effect electrons.

Hei caused nothing of what happened there consciously. It was a chaotic result of the powers interacting in a weird fashion. So the fact that Hei didn't know how to do it on his own, really doesn't matter.

This is like, literally never stated nor implied anywhere. Harvest doesn't have a resistance to Deconstruction, and Hei's resistance to Deconstruct is only when he uses electricity around his entire body which he isn't doing here. I'm not sure where you really got this perspective from but this is entirely made up on your end.

Well, they stood in the middle of a matter dissolving phenomenon and didn't die. That's the fact. You can't explain how they survived electron-matter hax stuff by durability.

What you're suggesting is like saying that someone tanking a spatial slash should scale to its destructive output, because they haven't demonstrated a resistance and hence should have tanked it by durability. That makes no sense, since you can't tank it via durability. That's why it's hax.

So we have do inference based on what we're shown, which is that they somehow survived clashing with their abilities. It's not hard to imagine either. We know Hei can resist Harvest's stuff to an extend and since Harvest wasn't shocked to death here, he can clearly to some extent resist Hei's ability as well. Hei resists via his ability, so Harvest likely does the same.

Context DT, Context is what matters here. When the two fight they're essentially nukes, the scientist didn't want to fighting any longer due to the amount of destruction they'd cost and the attention they'd get from the Government.

Yeah, if they fight they're nukes. If they don't fight, Harvest still is dangerous, just not to the same level as when they resonate.

Considering they know who Harvest is, I doubt they thought the dude wouldn't spread destruction on his own.

This isn't inherently true either, Harvest would scale to his end of the feat (which is half.) The resonance is a result of Hei's and Harvest's power directly clashing with one another, triggering a massive explosion in the process. (Which is evident as they both have cuts, burns and marks from the Blast, and neither is resistant to matter Manipulation normally so this makes the argument of the explosion not being the cause moot.)

Their powers resonating causes a phenomenon, which neither of them alone normally causes (again, only if they clash electrons behave that weird according to scientist guy). So it isn't as simple as just adding two energy beams to each other.

This is something that nearly everyone here disagrees with you on with all due respect.

Appeal to popularity.

 

[KingTempest]

Ehh still leaning to Gin

 

[LordGinSama]

Who is that again?

The Contractors listed by the scientist's whenever they're talking about Contractors with the ability to decompose / Deconstruct.

My point was just that if this clash doesn't scale them, no clash would.

I'm aware and I have to fully disagree with you on that subject due to your argument being based upon the clash being a reaction. That's a minor aspect, the main aspect is that it's a result of their combined powers.

That wasn't an argument from disbelieve. Peas bouncing around without causing environmental damage have plenty of reason to not be 6-B.

First things first, this isn't 6-B anymore it's 7-C and that was a from a much weaker and much less inexperienced Hei.

I don't see why Hei's durability should have increased by a million times between seasons, but sure, give me some time and we will see if I can find similar stuff in season two.

Season Two Hei is definitely weaker than his previous keys, he's both mentally and physically limited due to his heavy alcoholism, that's literally one of the main points of season 2. At this point he's beyond his prime until he recovers at the end of the series, and 9-A to 7-C isn't a jump of millions of times.


2 tons for an attack is from fodder as of Shikkoku no Hana, as fodder Contractors are capable of such and they aren't stated to be amongst the most powerful of Contractors unlike Hei.


Harvest was more than sure he could have Deconstructed the World and even the Black Flower Contractor scales above that even without the Fragrantment, let's not act like 7-C is an outlier whenever there are feats above that, the Tokyo Explosion from a base Hei, Hei nuking South America, statements from Harvest, etc. It being boosted is irrelevant as that still means feats above 9-A are existent in the verse.

No, the scientist explicitly tells us, and I quote, "I fear if they attack each other head-on, the electrons may react like this in unknown ways". It's pretty clear that what happened is the result of both of their abilities to influence electrons affecting the environment.

Which in turn created a massive explosion due to two matter Manipulatiors clashing with one another, hence why the "Boom!" sound effect is there along with Hei and Harvest both sustaining burns. If it were just a simple phenomenon that decomposes matter then there would be no explosion present and Hei and Harvest wouldn't have been damaged and throw back, there's a present impact force.

The manga even shows us how the shoe that was caught in it continues dissolving after leaving the phenomenon. That can't be caused by simple explosion damage.

It absolutely can, explosions even in real life are capable of dissolving and vaporizing matter. And even then, that's a direct affect of Harvest's power.

In general, if not for that quote you couldn't justify the girl even being atomized instead of simply getting ripped to pieces or pulverized or vaporized.

First of all, she isn't getting ripped to pieces, nor is she getting pulverized as we see the extent of the damage done to her. This is blatantly shown in the visuals so I don't know where your even going with this.

No, the explosion is a phenomenon that happens as a side effect of the decomposition

No it isn't, there is no phenomenon as you say happening, this is never stated to be the case by any of the scientists and even in real life such a phenomenon does not exist. For this to be the case you'd need to have more direct statements of this, which there aren't.

. By all we know there is no reason to believe that it is the cause of it and enough to believe it isn't. It could, for example, be caused by the density change of the decomposed materials.

Which is an assumption that requires even more assumptions than it being a result of the two powers clashing. Electrons interacting with one another do cause massive explosions that in turn deconstruct things, the Deconstruction is something that Harvest does with his ability, nothing else.

I never suggested that this is caused by Harvest's ability alone. As said, it's a result of their abilities resonating.

Which isn't true either as Hei's ability is the ability to slow down the decomposition of matter, which is stated several times in Shikkoku no Hana. It's the explosion itself that causes the decomposition, due to the violent reaction of their powers resonating with one another.

Hei caused nothing of what happened there consciously. It was a chaotic result of the powers interacting in a weird fashion. So the fact that Hei didn't know how to do it on his own, really doesn't matter.

What? They both willing attacked each other, and Hei and Harvest have both fought plenty of times before this, which is why the Scientists of PANDORA didn't want them fighting in the first place because they've fought before.


Hei not knowing how to deconstruct matter at this point absolutely matters given the context.

Well, they stood in the middle of a matter dissolving phenomenon and didn't die. That's the fact. You can't explain how they survived electron-matter hax stuff by durability.

Yeah no, it's not just a random phenomenon that destroy's matter, it's a direct result of the explosion that ensued which is what caused that amount of damage for a reason. Hei is blatantly not resistant to matter Manipulation until he uses his Electricity to cover his body which he didn't do here.


They tanked the explosion point blank, if there wasn't a KE of the explosion then neither Hei or Harvest would have been flung back back burns and marks.

What you're suggesting is like saying that someone tanking a spatial slash should scale to its destructive output, because they haven't demonstrated a resistance and hence should have tanked it by durability. That makes no sense, since you can't tank it via durability. That's why it's hax.

First of all, this is a massive false comparison as your comparing two very different forms of hax, and that depends entirely on the spatial manipulation at question. Some forms of spatial manipulation do indeed have AP to it, in some cases its both resistance and durability.

This isn't a hax secondly so this point is moot, this is an explosion, I.E physical force and not hax.

So we have do inference based on what we're shown, which is that they somehow survived clashing with their abilities. It's not hard to imagine either. We know Hei can resist Harvest's stuff to an extend and since Harvest wasn't shocked to death here, he can clearly to some extent resist Hei's ability as well. Hei resists via his ability, so Harvest likely does the same.

Hei explicitly doesn't resist Harvest's ability without his Electricity armor which wasn't used here, this argument goes against what is shown in the manga to a tremendous extent. Once more, the explosion itself is the cause of the amount of damage, nothing else. Hei's electricity slows the process of decomposition, and can only resist it to a degree when using his ability on his body to engulf it which isn't the case here.

Yeah, if they fight they're nukes. If they don't fight, Harvest still is dangerous, just not to the same level as when they resonate.

Which is why the result is halved, and Harvest has shown feats that are around 8-A making it consistent. (Such as him deconstructing multiple levels of a building in one attack that even extended deep into the sewer system.) Hei caused the Tokyo Explosion by himself while not amped by the Fragrantment which would also support this.

Considering they know who Harvest is, I doubt they thought the dude wouldn't spread destruction on his own.

They know who he is but not the full extent of his abilities, they have the bare minimum on what he can do hence why they didn't even know he could deconstruct gas and other substances.


And Harvest's power comes from the Black Flower, something that originates from the Gate which explicitly cannot be analyzed even by the top Scientists in the verse so the PANDORA scientist who are in canon less knowledgeable than the top are likely wrong in their observation regarding Harvest, hence why he also broke free from their capture since they didn't know what he was actually capable of.

Their powers resonating causes a phenomenon, which neither of them alone normally causes (again, only if they clash electrons behave that weird according to scientist guy). So it isn't as simple as just adding two energy beams to each other.

Said phenomenon was never stated, this is a conclusion that you yourself came to based upon a vague statement from a scientist who has little to no accurate information on Harvest.

Appeal to popularity.

Appeal to Popularity isn't always a fallacy, typically speaking whenever there's a true perception and a wrong perception there's a side that agrees with the former based upon actual information. This is the classic Argument from Fallacy

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, I don't have time for another reply today. If I'm outvoted by other staff even after reading the recent arguments then go ahead and apply this. The calc still needs to be revised, though.

 

[LordGinSama]

I plan on leaving today actually so I suppose a comprise might work.


How's about using this as a "possibly" rating? We can met half way a call it a wrap something along the lines of (Clashed equally with Harvest and created an explosion of this magnitude although this could have possibly been a result of a phenomenon.)

 

[LordGinSama]

Alright I've been informed that the feat gets reduced to 8-C which should be fine to use but Hei still has his Tokyo Explosion feat which doesn't scale to his durability but would scale to his powers.


Harvest also has a solid feat of digging through several stories and past the sewer system.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tokyo Explosion is 7-C, and it actually would scale to durability because he'd have 7-C AP and he took the explosion that resulted from his clash with another dude.

 

[LordGinSama]

Well with that calculation I suppose we can settle on this.

"Town level, High 6-A with the Meteor Fragment."


This should be fine as this feat comes from Hei himself and thus takes care of the scaling for the resonating feat that DontTalk had issues with. I'd really appreciate if we could wrap this up so I can apply the changes and continue on with the rest of my life.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think the only thing now is getting the feats accepted. The High 6-A one needs to be re-evaluated since it's been changed to atomization, and the 7-C one needs to be evaluated.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Tokyo Explosion is 7-C, and it actually would scale to durability because he'd have 7-C AP and he took the explosion that resulted from his clash with another dude.

Which other dude? If it's not the Harvest thing specifically (or another hax thing) it's probably fine.

 

[LordGinSama]

Changes have been applied, this can be closed.


Now I can hit that log out button

 

[Rikimarox2]

Changes have been applied, this can be closed.


Now I can hit that log out button

Amen baby

Now log off and drink a cup of tea, full knowing that Hei got the justice he deserved.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Changes have been applied, this can be closed.


Now I can hit that log out button