Dark Lord vs Demon Lord of Undeath

[Rabbit2002]

Speed is equalized
Both are the strongest version of 2-C
The Dark Lord:
Master of Vampires:
Incon:

 

[Rabbit2002]

bump

 

[Theglassman12]

Something Something, DnD is outdated as **** and loses to drac cause passives as of now.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Which version of both are being used? They have like 5 collective 2-C keys.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Which version of both are being used? They have like 5 collective 2-C keys.

the strongest version of 2C

 

[Qawsedf234]

So it mostly depends on if Dracula can kill Orcus before Orcus uses the Last Word and (presumably) wins the fight.

 

[Theglassman12]

Dracula resists having his immortality negated and regeneration negated on a high godly level, alongside having numerous passives at once which I don't see Orcus resisting on his current page.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

As has been discussed previously, this is a list of accepted resistances that apply to everybody in D&D.

 

[Theglassman12]

Quantum Manipulation, Plot Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), Gravity Manipulation, Pain Manipulation, Technology Manipulation, Physics Manipulation, Fate Manipulation (affects type 4), Corruption (Type 1 and 2), Size Manipulation, Biological and Power Absorption, Body Puppetry, Power Mimicry

Seems like these abilities aren't covered in the DnD resistance

 

[Qawsedf234]

Dracula resists having his immortality negated

Orcus can negate Immortality of people with layered resistances and the ability to easily resurrect themselves in multiple ways.

regeneration negated on a high godly level

The first example is the Last Word was killing a God of secrets and erasing the very concept of a secret from the multiverse temporarily. I don't see how that isn't enough to counter Dracula's regen.

Quantum Manipulation, Plot Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), Gravity Manipulation, Pain Manipulation, Technology Manipulation, Physics Manipulation, Fate Manipulation (affects type 4), Corruption (Type 1 and 2), Size Manipulation, Biological and Power Absorption, Body Puppetry, Power Mimicry

Besides technology manipulation (which I'm not sure how thst impacts Orcus) I can give evidence for the rest of the powers soon-ish.

Though Quantum Manipulation likely isn't something Orcus has resistance to off the top of my head.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Plot Manipulation,

While checking, I believed he had direct resistance to this ability, but there's no indication (to my knowledge) that he does. Though he can resist attacks and abilities by someone who has this power if that means anything.

Void Manipulation,

Orcus can resist the Negative Energy plane draining him. The Negative Energy Plane is anti-existence, destroying all matter and energy within it.

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1),

Orcus can resist someone's attacks that undo your very existence by erasing you from history

Gravity Manipulation,

Orcus can resist attacks that control gravity. To quote one example

Combat: Though not normally aggressive, the stellar dragon can easily defend itself. Its unique "breath weapon" is gravitic: rather than emitting breath, it draws things into the dragon's internally generated sphere of annihilation. The mouth, a focus for the sphere, confines its gravitic attraction to a cone 1,200 yards long, 50' wide at the dragon's mouth and 600' wide at the base. A successful save vs. breath weapon negates the effect.

The bulk of other targeted gravity spells Orcus can resist. Otherwise his flight would negate just shifting the direction of gravity.

Pain Manipulation

That is listed in Bambu's blog

• Blast of Pain (Priest's Spell Compendium, Vol 1, pg 73)
• Dance of Pain (Priest's Spell Compendium, Vol 1, pg 176)
• Death Symbol of Bane (Priest's Spell Compendium, Vol 1, pg 188)
• Heart Blight (Priest's Spell Compendium, Vol 2, pg 326)
• Kiss of Torment (Priest's Spell Compendium, Vol 2, pg 365)

Physics Manipulation

The only linked source for that power is his castle, which they aren't fighting in.

Fate Manipulation (affects type 4)

Also listed on Bambu's resistance page

• Hand of Hoar (Priest's Spell Compendium, Vol 2, pg 319)

Corruption (Type 1 and 2)

Orcus can resist the corrupting energies of the Far Realm, energies that effect both space-time and non-corporal aspects of the multiverse

Size Manipulation

Resistance to size manipulation is something a level 1 D&D person can do

Biological and Power Absorption

Stuff like power absorption and biological absorption are both abilities Orcus can resist

Body Puppetry

Orcus resists this power

Power Mimicry

Checking Orcus has no resistance to someone just copying a power of his. He would be able to resist everything but this aspect if Dracula touches him.

Quantum Manipulation

So how does this work exactly for Dracula? It looks like it mostly just effects space around him, has he ever used this power on a person.

Technology Manipulation

Orcus does not use technology, so this isn't a relevant power.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The linked list isn't exhaustive, aye. It's just scrambled together based on a couple books and some excerpts. Personally I've repeatedly said we ought not to use it until it's in a much more reasonable state but people started using it so here we are, hah.

Perhaps after we reach 30,000 pages I should go through major books for the sandbox. It'd be nice to let it be fully accurate without one of us needing to step in.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Qawsedf234 do you have an exact scaling on the negations?

That literally is covered by High godly regen as you regenerate from conceptual erasure.

I mean, fighting someone who has this power doesn't exactly tell me much if they don't elaborate on if the plot hax didn't work on Orcus to begin with.

Is that actual void hax? I recall Bambu saying you'd need to control literal nothingness itself when I tried to get Void hax for God of War a while ago.

That's just resistance to EE, not exactly type 1 conceptual manipulation where the concepts are independent from reality.

I could be wrong on this but I think Gravity and telekinesis functions a bit similar where you need superior Lifting strength to overpower it if you lack the resistance, but if he resists it then ok

Completely forgot to delete the pain stuff

They technically are as Dracula's magic is literally his castle, he's never without his castle as it's tied to his existence, so fighting him is essentially fighting him within his castle, which applies to virtually every dark lord in the castlevania series.

Does the fate hax have any feats of affecting type 4 acausal beings? Because that's more potent than normal fate hax as it can affect beings who are naturally immune to fate hax.

probably should be on the resistance blog then

Do you have any scans on bio and power absorption being resisted for orcus?

I'm assuming the resistance scaling is like any RPG where the bosses are just immune to any status ailments or is it different in DnD?

So Orcus is screwed since this ability is done via contact on anything from Orcus, whether it's Orcus' body/soul or any of his actual attacks, which literally can be adapted/resisted against as a weaker being who had some of dracula's magic can adapt against any attack thrown at him.

It essentially creates multi-layered barriers into alternate realities to separates the powers of others through quantum hax, as shown with Brauner in PoR using just that, and the cast in Grimoire of Souls trying to do the same thing to separate the powers of chaos from another character.

@Mr._Bambu so I'm assuming using the blog is free game for DnD characters or no?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

much to my chagrin, yeah. As I said, it's wildly far from being exhaustive and represents maybe 1% of the overall resistable spells, not to speak of monster abilities and yet more esoteric things. I believe everything Qawsed mentioned is legitimate.

Just to help guide you along, Glass, I'm going to parse through these in no particular order.

I'm assuming the resistance scaling is like any RPG where the bosses are just immune to any status ailments or is it different in DnD?

Nah, not at all. Everyone has a score of resistance based on statistics. Resistances come in different flavors- Wisdom/Will, Constitution/Fortitude, so on and so forth. "Bosses" aren't really a thing but Orcus would fit the bill, and he just has... really good resistances.

I could be wrong on this but I think Gravity and telekinesis functions a bit similar where you need superior Lifting strength to overpower it if you lack the resistance, but if he resists it then ok

You can resist outside of LS, yeah. You can't really even LS against Telekinesis since there's nothing to push against, really, though I suppose with a sufficient form of Non-Physical Interaction you could do it. Either way, Orcus resists.

Is that actual void hax? I recall Bambu saying you'd need to control literal nothingness itself when I tried to get Void hax for God of War a while ago.

While I don't recall what I said for God of War, I will note that on every God of War related issue I was more or less not part of the accepted group. Had I been, the verse would look mightily different than it does now. Regardless, the Plane of Negative Energy may not fit the bill but there are voids that do. Specifically, I recall the void that surrounds Baator requires resistances to avoid getting shredded by it. Furthermore, "literal nothingness" can be found in the Shadowfell, where the unreal takes on a vaguely malleable form.

That literally is covered by High godly regen as you regenerate from conceptual erasure.

I don't know which bit you're referring to with this, although I will note that I've spoken to Qawsedf in the past, and I think there's an argument to be had that Deity-tier creatures of D&D likely have High-Godly regen. It's just not really a priority for us to work through it since it's more tenuous than other things and, frankly, I fear it will bring about a new wave of D&D matches with no care for aesthetics.

That's just resistance to EE, not exactly type 1 conceptual manipulation where the concepts are independent from reality.

Orcus... is a Type 1 concept independent from reality. I'd note that all the Outsiders are Type 1 concepts or fragmented representations thereof.

They technically are as Dracula's magic is literally his castle, he's never without his castle as it's tied to his existence, so fighting him is essentially fighting him within his castle, which applies to virtually every dark lord in the castlevania series.

Can you get a scan or two of how this works? I'm not certain I understand lol.

Does the fate hax have any feats of affecting type 4 acausal beings? Because that's more potent than normal fate hax as it can affect beings who are naturally immune to fate hax.

More or less every single guy that Orcus spends his time actually fighting is a Type 4 Acausal, yes.

probably should be on the resistance blog then

this can be said for a great many things. there is a reason I present it as non-exhaustive, hah.

Do you have any scans on bio and power absorption being resisted for orcus?

I'll let Qawsedf grab the esoteric scans, but uh... he doesn't really have a biology to speak of, so I don't think bio manip works? Even ignoring the resistances he would have (and to be clear, that is a thing), I just... don't see how that would come into play at all.

So Orcus is screwed since this ability is done via contact on anything from Orcus, whether it's Orcus' body/soul or any of his actual attacks, which literally can be adapted/resisted against as a weaker being who had some of dracula's magic can adapt against any attack thrown at him.

Are you trying to claim "I'm rubber, you're glue"? I may be reading this incorrectly, forgive me if I am, but doesn't this reach a smidge into NLF territory? "Actually Dracula can simply ADAPT to resist EVERYTHING THROWN AT HIM even when its STRONGER because this guy WEAKER THAN HIM did it (not Dracula himself though)".

 

[Qawsedf234]

do you have an exact scaling on the negations?

I thought I did but previously @Mr._Bambu said my version was wrong. I know its layered but I couldn't give you a number for it.

That literally is covered by High godly regen as you regenerate from conceptual erasure.

I read the justification wrong I guess. If Death regenerated after the concept of death itself was destroyed then Orcus wouldn't have an example of killing someone with that regen.

Is that actual void hax?

Yeah, Shar has it

That's just resistance to EE, not exactly type 1 conceptual manipulation where the concepts are independent from reality.

Orcus can fight and is capable of kill Greater Gods like Zeus who have such ability by nullify them with his wand and the Last Word. So presumably he can, at least based on the profile

I could be wrong on this but I think Gravity and telekinesis functions a bit similar where you need superior Lifting strength to overpower it if you lack the resistance, but if he resists it then ok

Orcus wouldn't be able to resist Dracula flipping gravity over some wide undefined area, but targeted applications of gravity manipulation Orcus would resist.

As for the LS thing, that's only if the person is actively trying to force the target down or construct them. Even then if you resist the power entirely you could negate it working on you without having superior LS.

Does the fate hax have any feats of affecting type 4 acausal beings?

All Fate Hax on the divine scale that isn't resisted in some fashion has to work on Type 4, since all Gods have that physiology in universe.

Do you have any scans on bio and power absorption being resisted for orcus?

Oh I didn't link them. Sorry about that. Powers that work by fusing two being biologically are automatically negated if they're not willing and for power absorption Orcus would be able to resist a multitude of powers that reduce that, one example an attack from a Wight.

So Orcus is screwed since this ability is done via contact on anything from Orcus

I mean, Orcus can always use the Last Word (which is above baseline 2-A) and then just seal Dracula.

Although being honest sealing might be a bit OOC for this Orcus, though that would be the most efficient route possible. Orcus going from memory in this key will instantly use the Last Word on anyone he sees, but sealing would require more thinking on his part. Like his gameplay was to yolo attack the Lady of Pain after he got the Wand so he's not some god tier planner like Vecna.

Going by what I've seen Dracula do in some of those Longplay videos though, he's also not much of hyper efficient hax death machine either. Mostly going for telegraphed ranged attacks or standard physical attacks.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mr._Bambu so depending on the number of their stats, they can resist some spells? And I'm assuming these spells all have a specific number that's required for you to be immune to that ability? Interesting.

Eh, If he has gravity resistance that's fine

Is the shadowfell void like a dangerous realm where you need to get some resistances to survive or does it not have much elaboration and anyone could just walk through normally? As for the baator thing, if that's legit and orcus' resistance can stop that then fine.

I was referring to the whole "erasing a concept which extends across the multiverse" part Qawsed's arguing, since High godly regen literally protects you from that level, you'd need negation to kill someone with that level of regen.

Does it have any feats of affecting a type 1 concept? Cause the blog just mentions type 2 concepts being resisted, not a type 1.

I have a section of the castle explained in this blog here, but TL;DR, the castle literally is his magic, not all of it given he's shown to have extra reserves to himself in some of the game after the collapse of his castle, but it's one of the most consistent things mentioned about his castle. Every single time he resurrects his castle reappears as a sign of his return, and he sustains the castle with his existence as in every single game where you beat him, his death always causes the collapse of his castle (literally look up the end of almost every game ever with him where his death causes his castle to collapse for this). This is further shown when characters like Brauner and Richter Belmont become the new dark lord of the castle, they have control over the castle to the point of sustaining it, with richter dying in Symphony of the Night resulting in the entire castle collapsing as the dark lord is dead.

and those guys he fights gets fate haxed numerous times?

fair enough

Do we consider that biological resistance? I thought we'd need explicit statements on resistance for that

Not exactly NLF right here when I'm not arguing it goes to a tier 1 and higher level. Literally one of the characters who had a smidget of his power has the ability to copy and adapt against the powers used against him which is shown in his boss fight where you using any abilities on him results in him copying your attacks, and he did this for essentially every single demon as he has Menace within him, which is an amalgamation of every creature of chaos in the Abyss (hell in Castlevania), that and vampires normally have reactive evolution as they're capable of getting newer abilities to adapt to their survival. That's literally how it works, and I don't see resistance to power mimicry on Orcus nor do I recall any of his hax reaching tier 1 levels unless I missed something.

@Qawsedf234 I'm assuming the thing Orcus is holding is the last word? If so ok, though Zeus doesn't have much elaboration on his concept unless that's being revised too

I see

Is that power absorption or statistics reduction? Cause it mentions dropping their levels from energy draining, which isn't exactly the same thing as power absorption since one's merely taking your abilities, and the other is just taking your strength per say. biological absorption I guess is fine.

Dracula resists sealing thanks to getting out of Shanoa's sealing glyphs. The ranged attacks is mostly when he fights belmonts which are predominantly close quarters fighters. He does a lot of different attacks including going in your face, especially when he transforms into one of his dozens of chaos forms which has him hounding on you, and keep in mind the power mimicry part is passive as it activates on touch, and that's not even talking about the power of dominance where he absorbs the enemy's soul and gains their powers and resistances as a result, which is shown to be a tier higher than the on contact power mimicry in Dawn of Sorrow.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

so depending on the number of their stats, they can resist some spells? And I'm assuming these spells all have a specific number that's required for you to be immune to that ability? Interesting.

It's not limited to spells, and it isn't based on the spell but rather who's pumping it out. More powerful foes have more powerful variations of spells.

Is the shadowfell void like a dangerous realm where you need to get some resistances to survive or does it not have much elaboration and anyone could just walk through normally? As for the baator thing, if that's legit and orcus' resistance can stop that then fine.

Baator is, aye, if that's the flavor that fits more closely to what you're going for. The Shadowfell isn't a full void but it has nonexistent creatures within it.

I was referring to the whole "erasing a concept which extends across the multiverse" part Qawsed's arguing, since High godly regen literally protects you from that level, you'd need negation to kill someone with that level of regen.

Ah. Qawsedf is wrong, I think, for the record, on whether or not Orcus has a feat. Speaking back on the High-Godly thing, we have deities who have been brought back into the fold after their destruction- for example the God of Humans would come back, should anybody remember his name. His destruction made this mostly impossible but it is in theory possible. Still, moving on.

Does it have any feats of affecting a type 1 concept? Cause the blog just mentions type 2 concepts being resisted, not a type 1.

The blog wasn't updated when we switched the concepts around. If you'll recall, current Type 1 is old Type 2.

I have a section of the castle explained in this blog here, but TL;DR, the castle literally is his magic, not all of it given he's shown to have extra reserves to himself in some of the game after the collapse of his castle, but it's one of the most consistent things mentioned about his castle. Every single time he resurrects his castle reappears as a sign of his return, and he sustains the castle with his existence as in every single game where you beat him, his death always causes the collapse of his castle (literally look up the end of almost every game ever with him where his death causes his castle to collapse for this). This is further shown when characters like Brauner and Richter Belmont become the new dark lord of the castle, they have control over the castle to the point of sustaining it, with richter dying in Symphony of the Night resulting in the entire castle collapsing as the dark lord is dead.

Your blog somewhat contradicts what you're saying here. Your current claim, in this thread, is that the castle exists coterminously with Dracula- Dracula cannot be without his Castle. And yet in the blog you claim it is a situation where Dracula can teleport to his castle at will. These two things don't really make sense, and based on the evidence of the blog I certainly don't think Dracula's castle is just... attached to him, at the hip. I do have a question, though, since some of the videos make me question this: how long does it take Dracula to return to life upon dying? It seems like generations pass in-between, which would sort of negate the benefit of High-Godly, no?

and those guys he fights gets fate haxed numerous times?

He uses his abilities on them, yes.

Do we consider that biological resistance? I thought we'd need explicit statements on resistance for that

my man, he doesn't have a biology

aside from bio manip resistances that all creatures have, he just literally doesn't have a biology

don't know what else to tell you on this'n

Not exactly NLF right here when I'm not arguing it goes to a tier 1 and higher level. Literally one of the characters who had a smidget of his power has the ability to copy and adapt against the powers used against him which is shown in his boss fight where you using any abilities on him results in him copying your attacks, and he did this for essentially every single demon as he has Menace within him, which is an amalgamation of every creature of chaos in the Abyss (hell in Castlevania), that and vampires normally have reactive evolution as they're capable of getting newer abilities to adapt to their survival. That's literally how it works, and I don't see resistance to power mimicry on Orcus nor do I recall any of his hax reaching tier 1 levels unless I missed something.

I didn't say you did, but you are arguing infinitely Tier 2 for an ability that, as far as I can tell, Dracula himself does not possess. We don't give characters abilities based on the powers bestowed on others by their abilities except in certain situations. Just bringing mention of someone amped by Drac doesn't mean Drac can do it, this much is standard. Nor would I really agree with the notion that it's just an all-around "no u can't hurt me, I'm going to adapt!". Everything abides by its represented limits- so whatever the limit of this other character, amped by Dracula's power, has shown, that is the maximum arguable limit. Any ability above that would overwrite it unless I'm missing something here. This is irrelevant though, as Orcus isn't fighting these characters, Orcus is fighting Dracula. I also don't know that it would really even matter given Orcus resists his own abilities, but that's a different discussion

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm assuming the thing Orcus is holding is the last word? If so ok, though Zeus doesn't have much elaboration on his concept unless that's being revised too

I'll actually comment on this one too, though not the bit about Zeus as I can't really parse what you're getting at. The Last Word isn't an object, it is a word. We're not really told much about it outside of it being a word of unmaking, something potent enough to kill off the gods and their concepts. If you care for my speculation, it's probably tied to the Ancient Brotherhood since they have extremely similar ties to a primeval language, and it was Orcus' goal to use it to slay the Lady of Pain.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Is that power absorption or statistics reduction?

I believe it's both, since it can absorb spells 9r physical attributes depending on the enemy attack.

Dracula resists sealing thanks to getting out of Shanoa's sealing glyphs

I saw that he had sealing resistance, but Orcus sealing resistance can bypass baseline D&D sealing resistance. So I just assumed it wouldn't amount to much.

Ah. Qawsedf is wrong, I think, for the record, on whether or not Orcus has a feat

I was going with the Mind Flayer and the Aztec God being permanently killed by Orcus and have never been resurrected due to the finalility of the Last Word.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was going with the Mind Flayer and the Aztec God being permanently killed by Orcus and have never been resurrected due to the finalility of the Last Word.

Yeah, but that's the Last Word. I just think it's strong enough to keep them dead, which is why it's such a great threat. The slaying of a god is a twofold problem, the first being actually killing them and the second being keeping them dead. As far as I'm aware, gods can tussle amongst one another and die, but ultimately come back. The Last Word ostensibly prevents this in most cases (Primus doesn't count because he's got a weird form of reincarnation where it isn't really the same Primus but rather another guy just taking over his role).

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mr._Bambu I see, not fully familiar with DnD rules so I'll take your word for it.

ah so it has nonexistent creatures, got it.

that sounds like some additional type 8 immortality if those gods require someone to remember their name for them to come back.

Oh so it's that old, ok then.

The "warping to at will" is a separate context as Dracula was in a comatose thanks to the vampire killer and after awakening his castle calls him back, everything else is shown where his resurrection is tied to his castle. His resurrection results in the castle coming back which he's always a part of, and again the castle is his magic so you're not really fighting dracula at full power if you don't give him his castle. The high godly is instantaneous as the creatures of chaos all can regenerate nigh instantly as shown with some of the games and the novels with death coming back fast from being erased conceptually (plus with some potential cross scaling this can scale to a lot of the noteworthy creatures of chaos like Medusa, etc.) . He only "dies" because the belmonts and co have the powers and the weapons designed to kill creatures of chaos, without those specific powers he's incapable of dying normally.

ok, I guess it makes sense.

he does possess it, the only reason why they have the powers is because of Dracula's magic, which is shown when the villain of Aria of Sorrow getting dracula's magic has him doing the moves dracula has, and again every single creature of chaos scales to dracula thanks to the power of dominance and his control over chaos itself, where every creature is an aspect of itself and where the power of dominance comes from, which literally gives him the ability of every creature of chaos ever.

@Qawsedf234 it mentions energy as opposed to abilities so, it's kinda weird.

if it has some scaling then sure.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I see, not fully familiar with DnD rules so I'll take your word for it.

This one, at least, is very easily confirmable even with the most recent edition of D&D. Spell Save DC increases as you get more powerful as a player, and it is evident in certain creature types with upscaled versions (for example, dragons).

ah so it has nonexistent creatures, got it.

The Shadowfell, yeah. Baator doesn't, it's just hanging in a void that attempts to shred you up should you enter it.

that sounds like some additional type 8 immortality if those gods require someone to remember their name for them to come back.

I believe this was a case solely for that particular god, though I may be off-kilter with that. Either way, that's another topic altogether.

Oh so it's that old, ok then.

That particular thing, yeah. Since it's a blog it wasn't updated.

The "warping to at will" is a separate context as Dracula was in a comatose thanks to the vampire killer and after awakening his castle calls him back, everything else is shown where his resurrection is tied to his castle. His resurrection results in the castle coming back which he's always a part of, and again the castle is his magic so you're not really fighting dracula at full power if you don't give him his castle. The high godly is instantaneous as the creatures of chaos all can regenerate nigh instantly as shown with some of the games and the novels with death coming back fast from being erased conceptually (plus with some potential cross scaling this can scale to a lot of the noteworthy creatures of chaos like Medusa, etc.) . He only "dies" because the belmonts and co have the powers and the weapons designed to kill creatures of chaos, without those specific powers he's incapable of dying normally.

Does his castle like... spawn on him? I'm mostly contesting the idea that you originally put forth, that he instantly has his castle because it's somehow just with him always, which you don't seem to be arguing against. I'll ignore the whole "powers and weapons designed to kill creatures of chaos" bit since I assume this isn't just standard old Chaos, but rather some verse-specific macguffin. It is funny, though, that Orcus is also a "creature of chaos".

he does possess it, the only reason why they have the powers is because of Dracula's magic, which is shown when the villain of Aria of Sorrow getting dracula's magic has him doing the moves dracula has, and again every single creature of chaos scales to dracula thanks to the power of dominance and his control over chaos itself, where every creature is an aspect of itself and where the power of dominance comes from, which literally gives him the ability of every creature of chaos ever.

Right, but this isn't how the site handles these things, though. For example, Apocalypse from the X-Men film series bestowed upon various characters a number of powers who only have it thanks to his shit, but Apocalypse is not assumed to also have it. If Dracula himself never shows a capacity to do something, it is site standard to say he probably can't do it. Especially in a scenario as titanic as the claim you're currently making. Orcus doesn't arbitrarily have the abilities of his underlings despite literally molding them. Bodaks, Ghouls, etc- while Orcus has his own retinue of abilities, he is not assumed to be able to just... have their shit.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I saw that he had sealing resistance, but Orcus sealing resistance can bypass baseline D&D sealing resistance. So I just assumed it wouldn't amount to much.

Dracula is also superior to Death who escaped Soma's sealing, his resistance shouldn't be baseline aswell

Does his castle like... spawn on him? I'm mostly contesting the idea that you originally put forth, that he instantly has his castle because it's somehow just with him always, which you don't seem to be arguing against. I'll ignore the whole "powers and weapons designed to kill creatures of chaos" bit since I assume this isn't just standard old Chaos, but rather some verse-specific macguffin. It is funny, though, that Orcus is also a "creature of chaos".

It does. In Curse of Darkness, when he is finally resurrected, the Castle literally bursts out of nowhere with him sitting at its throne, it's quite literally standard equipment for Dracula as crazy as that sounds

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mr._Bambu The castle spawns with him every time, Curse of Darkness and Order of Ecclesia are prime examples of that as his resurrection results in his castle returning, which is consistent with the fact the castle is his magic. Yeah chaos is literally a concept in the franchise, every single creature of chaos/creature of the night (night and darkness is used interchangeably with chaos in this series) is an aspect of its being and is the source of dracula's power, on top of it being the opposite to god with a whole "yin yang duality" schtick going on where one can't be good if evil doesn't exist and so on. Ah so this match is more thematic than just being normal dark lords.

This isn't dracula making the creatures though, the power of dominace literally gives him control of the demons and grants him all of their abilities. This is hammered home in both Aria and Dawn of Sorrow where his reincarnation has entire games built around taking the abilities from monsters thanks to his power of dominance, which is the in lore reason for why he's capable of doing it, and it's stated numerous times the power of dominance is dracula's key power, it's why he's able to take in Death's power in Portrait of Ruins in his boss fight, on top of why no other creature of chaos would **** with dracula since he just has their powers.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The castle spawns with him every time, Curse of Darkness and Order of Ecclesia are prime examples of that as his resurrection results in his castle returning, which is consistent with the fact the castle is his magic. Yeah chaos is literally a concept in the franchise, every single creature of chaos/creature of the night (night and darkness is used interchangeably with chaos in this series) is an aspect of its being and is the source of dracula's power, on top of it being the opposite to god with a whole "yin yang duality" schtick going on where one can't be good if evil doesn't exist and so on. Ah so this match is more thematic than just being normal dark lords.

Absolutely bizarre about the castle, but noted ig. I don't think SBA would still assume it gets teleported to him, though, but after his first death I guess it just... appears somewhere. If you wouldn't mind sending a link of a video or something that shows Dracula going down and the castle just appearing on him, that'd be appreciated.

As for the latter bit, Chaos is a literal concept in D&D too, yeah. Orcus isn't the overall master of it but he is one of the greatest Demon Lords in terms of power.

This isn't dracula making the creatures though, the power of dominace literally gives him control of the demons and grants him all of their abilities. This is hammered home in both Aria and Dawn of Sorrow where his reincarnation has entire games built around taking the abilities from monsters thanks to his power of dominance, which is the in lore reason for why he's capable of doing it, and it's stated numerous times the power of dominance is dracula's key power, it's why he's able to take in Death's power in Portrait of Ruins in his boss fight, on top of why no other creature of chaos would **** with dracula since he just has their powers.

Right, so he can take powers from creatures- that I knew. But you're still making a leap of assumptions. You have one other guy with a massive ability, and are just saying that Dracula must have that power too despite never showing it. You're phrasing it in such a way that makes me think Dracula never interacted with this guy directly, and rather he's just channeling Drac's power.

 

[Theglassman12]

Given the fact it's shown to be his magic, if you wanna fight dracula at his best his castle needs to be with him, given the fact he's never without it SBA would at least assume his castle would be with him during the fight. By going down do you mean resurrect? Cause Order of Ecclesia and Curse of Darkness are blatant examples of this. Everything else is just statements that the castle is his magic, on top of his death resulting in the collapse of the castle, which is the most consistent feat that occurs in the series, which solidifies them being tier 2.

Dracula dies and the magic from his being was released onto the dude with the power mimicry schtick and several others. It's a part of the plotline with Dawn of Sorrow where the dudes who got Dracula's magic are going to be Dark Lord candidates (replacing dracula) because of the fact they have his magic, it's not some random magic pool Dracula had on standby that was given to them, it's literally his own magic that was granted onto this dude.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Given the fact it's shown to be his magic, if you wanna fight dracula at his best his castle needs to be with him, given the fact he's never without it SBA would at least assume his castle would be with him during the fight. By going down do you mean resurrect? Cause Order of Ecclesia and Curse of Darkness are blatant examples of this. Everything else is just statements that the castle is his magic, on top of his death resulting in the collapse of the castle, which is the most consistent feat that occurs in the series, which solidifies them being tier 2.

I feel as though I have been chasing a thread for some time and will now simply accept that the end of the thread is most likely somewhere, hidden within these many hour long videos, but I really just don't want to watch them for the 879th high tier D&D match.

Dracula dies and the magic from his being was released onto the dude with the power mimicry schtick and several others. It's a part of the plotline with Dawn of Sorrow where the dudes who got Dracula's magic are going to be Dark Lord candidates (replacing dracula) because of the fact they have his magic, it's not some random magic pool Dracula had on standby that was given to them, it's literally his own magic that was granted onto this dude.

Glass, allow me to make myself perfectly clear: I have been aware of what you were saying since the first time you posted it. I'm just telling you that arbitrarily giving someone powers because some guy with their energy or what have you had them is explicitly something we don't do here. It doesn't even matter in the context of a fight, since again, Orcus resists all of his own powers. Even assuming there are zero things in D&D equatable to power absorption, it would not mean a thing.

 

[Delta333]

Any summary for the wincons of both sides?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I had actually meant to mention that, since I was recently reminded of this by Qawsedf.

Orcus has Limited Wish, that much is easy enough to confirm. But, @Qawsedf234, I recall him having Wish. Have I perhaps fallen into bouts of schizophrenia causing me to remember this? Because if he does have Wish, we suddenly have a problem methinks.

As for Dracula, Glass mentioned something about passives that would arise were he to be inside of his castle, and is arguing that his castle crops up at-start.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

There is also the matter of, come to think of it, Orcus just sucking the plane of existence into the Abyss. I'd almost forgotten his most noteworthy passive.

 

[Delta333]

Does Orcus have any counter for plot hax?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I had actually meant to mention that, since I was recently reminded of this by Qawsedf.

Orcus has Limited Wish, that much is easy enough to confirm. But, @Qawsedf234, I recall him having Wish. Have I perhaps fallen into bouts of schizophrenia causing me to remember this? Because if he does have Wish, we suddenly have a problem methinks.

He doesn't. Checked BoVD, Savage Tide and Fiendish Codex, also checked just in case Monsters of the Multiverse and 1e Monster Manual.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But, @Qawsedf234, I recall him having Wish. Have I perhaps fallen into bouts of schizophrenia causing me to remember this?

I know that OD&D and 1e Orcus would have the ability to cast wish, along with God Orcus since 2e he had ascended for some reason. 3e Orcus might have wish as a memorized spell or a daily power. His stats are in Dungeon #149 if you want to verify that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

3e Orcus might have wish as a memorized spell or a daily power. His stats are in Dungeon #149 if you want to verify that.

He doesn't.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Then it's only God Orcus that has it. Though the match is using that Orcus so it shouldn't matter to much.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mr._Bambu Saying that Dracula doesn't scale to these abilities at all is completely ignoring the entire premise of his powers, and again I also pointed out the power of dominance grants him the resistances the foes he mimics have, so he's not merely copying their powers but their resistances too, so he'd lower Orcus' wincons.

Yes, the castle is with him at all time because it is his magic, you wanna fight dracula at his best? He's having his castle with him the entire fight. You cannot have him without the castle as that's equivalent of not letting Iron Man fight with his armors despite saying it's at his best state possible, so you can't fight drac without.

Anyways the resistances on the blog isn't up to date at all, so does anyone oppose the thread being concluded until DnD gets revised since as of now, Orcus just lacks the resistances to get through the castle and creature of chaos passives?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Saying that he does is completely ignoring the due process of the wiki, the wiki on which you are a staff member.

If you'd rather nuke the fight than debate, that's fine with me. I would like to note that by referring to Wish I am bringing up the 1-A shit Orcus has in his arsenal that I hadn't really put together until recently.

 

[Theglassman12]

You're not paying attention to the lore of Dracula dude, there's literally entire games built around the premise that he has all of the villain's powers, to ignore that and say he doesn't scale despite it being his power is being ignorant to the entire point of these games.

Again, the resistance blogs aren't covering everything that the castle has so Dracula kind of stomps as of now until DnD gets further revisions on the abilities and resistances, if the verse gets revised and the match is considered fair it can be remade.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You are saying Dracula stomps, I am saying he doesn't. I am further saying many of your points are irrelevant. You are saying that because you don't wish to hear his resistances not on that blog, that you want this closed. Not an entirely unreasonable request, so I don't care- Tier 2 D&D matches generally suck anyways.

I have listened to your argument for it scaling to Drac, and I have seen the almost exact situation in other scenarios. It is not considered to scale. So I don't particularly care.

Still. As you wish, I'm happy to take this one out the way of Old Yeller. Cheers.

 

[Theglassman12]

You literally said those are the resistances accepted on the site, so going by the rules of the wiki, Orcus doesn't resist dracula's passives as of now since he lacks the resistances on the wiki that's required to survive Dracula's presence, have it be accepted and maybe we can continue the debate if it's still fair, until then this entire discussion just boils down to "wait until the DnD revisions". Either way, closing the thread.