Danny Phantom: Issues with 5-B/Planet level calc (Why am i not surprised)

[LordGriffin1000]

So apparently there are issues with the current feat being used to justify the current 5-B rating for the Danny Phantom verse. So, I'm going to go right ahead and go through these arguments and get this over with because just from a glance I know this is going to be annoying.

Note 1: Here is the thread in which the feat was accepted and I debunked several arguments.

Note: The arguments brought forth come from DMUA in re-calc blog of the feat that I made but I'd rather make a thread so everyone has a chance to give input and it effects the verse as a whole so yeah.

DMUA's Arguments/My Debunks

Spoiler

First Argument

"Realm is old timey speak for a specific kingdom (or series thereof, such as europe)"

Debunk

So already, you can see problems.

First of all, you did not source your claim of "Realm is old timey speak for a specific kingdom (or series thereof, such as europe)" so already this claim has no backing but just so people don't claim I'm ignoring the argument I'll address it below.

Dorathea is the one who made the statement and if you actually bothered to do research you would know that as of season 2 (In which the feat takes place), Dorathea no longer speaks in "old timey speak", and talks like a normal parson. This is because she's already has been outside her realm and has knowledge of the Ghost Zone and modern world and can perfectly integrate herself into the modern world as seen with her human persona "Dora".

Heck in verse it's told to us that realms are the term used to reference the space as a whole as I'll explain below.

In season 1, episode "Life Lessons", Skulker is chasing Danny and Valerie through the Ghost Zone and they avoid him by entering the doors that lead to different realms, and Skulker contacts them, then states and I quote... "As much as I'd like to enjoy following the smell of beans, through the infinite realms of the Ghost Zone".

Skulker refers to the places that their entering as realms! He does not say he's following them through doors that lead to a specific portion a dimension that is the realm. It's very clear that the realm means the space behind the door. No where in Danny Phantom is a realm ever referred to as just a small portion of a dimension.

So this entire argument of how "old timey speak" uses realm to refer to the kingdom is nonsense because Dorathea doesn't speak in "old timely" language anymore and has been out of her realm and has understanding of modern concepts! Plus the verse already tells us that realms are the entire space behind the doors.

Let's go over her statement when talking to Sam, again and I quote!

Sam: Well, Prince Aragon needs to get his head out of the middle ages, it's the 21century!

Dorathea: Not here. In this realm, all time stands still.

She doesn't say "in this kingdom", she doesn't state "on this island", she outright says "in this realm, all time stands still" so how in the world do people interpret this as her saying just this kingdom on this one island is what's frozen in time is beyond me. Especially when I freaking debunked the cloud formation being that damn small in the revision thread! It's visually shown father than the kingdom (so assuming she ment the island makes no sense) and when Dorathea preforms the feat she states and I quote...

Dorathea: I think it's time we took this realm out of the dark ages!

She doesn't say "in this kingdom", she doesn't state "on this island", she outright says "this realm". So stop with this nonsense that she's only referring to the kingdom on the island because that's straight up false, has no backing, and goes against the statements and visuals of the verse itself.

Now let's move on to the second portion of the arguments

Second Argument

"it's an extreme overstatement to say it refers to the entire local universe and means the clouds reach all the way to the sun and throughout space, which doesn't even have an atmosphere in the first place."

Debunk

I'd like to know how this is even relevant when the calc doesn't use this logic... I'm not even joking, you guys can look at the calc yourselves, in the "Distance" portion, I never once said the cloud formation reaches into space to the sun! I said that the cloud formation covers a greater distance in terms of diameter (left to right) than the sun because the realm is big enough to house a sun and Dorathea literally says in the realm all time stands still and I've proven that the cause of that is the cloud formation which means that in terms of length (not height!!!), the cloud formation stretches to the ends of the realm unlike the sun to stop the light from shinning down on the rest of the realm.

In the damn calc itself I even post this under the "Cloud Thinkness" section...

"I'll assume it's a cumulonimbus cloud because it's think enough to block out sunlight completely.

So 8000m."

So tell me this, where did you get the assumption that the calc assumes the the cloud formation stretches "up" into space and to the sun!? Answer, you either made it up or you misinterpreted what I said.

Also, when did I say it covers the entire "local universe"!? That realm isn't universal in size!

Let's move on to the next argument...

Third Argument

"If by magic or specific context, it does, you have to question if the sun is any more legitimate, since it would absolutely ignite the oxygen and simply light everything ablaze ala the hypothetical scenario for the nukes firing and ending humanity entirely (Declassified document here, translation of that document into normal terms here, it's Island level, meanwhile the surface of the sun is High 6-A in total energy output every second)"

Debunk

So... what does this half to do with anything? This isn't an argument as it's again, assuming the cloud formation stretches up into space and to the sun... which it doesn't. I never claimed it did, I said it covers a greater length/distance then the sun's left to right (diameter) because of the information we are given.

Nothing said here has any effect on the feat because nothing of the sort stated by DMUA is used in that calc.

Let's move on to the final argument...

Final Argument (Part 1)

DMUA replied to the user comment

TheKnightofWinter:"But all ghost homes have been referred to as realms."

DMUA: "I'm inclined to ask for proof of that when the specific context here is a medieval dragon parting the clouds to bring light into a specific ye olden area"

Debunk: Stop with the headcannon please DMUA. The context is Dorathea parting the the clouds to bring light into a realm!!! Not a specific area in the realm! I've alread been over this and she states "In this realm, all time stands still", and "I think it's time we took this realm out of the dark ages".

She says nothing about a "specific ye olden area" as you claimed. And in Danny Phantom, realm is used for the whole area not a specific portion, as I proved with Skulker, and other realms follow that logic. In season 1, episode "Splitting Images", Poindexter traps Danny in his realm which is in the Ghost Zone, and in this realm time is stuck in the black and white 50's era. It's visually shown that the effect applied to the realm, not just the area of the school.

So for the last time, the realm she is referring to is the entire thing, not the small portion of it you keep saying it is.

Final Argument (Part 2)

DMUA also says...

DMUA: Heck if realm is in fact the local universe and they really wanted to split the clouds to let sunlight into everything, that'd probably get into FTL KE and render the whole thing invalid

Debunk: I ask you again, where in that blog does it state that the realm is a universe! Please, show me! Because it's not, it's a dimension that is big enough to house a sun and that's it!

We already got the results and using the accepted distance it doesn't go over FTL KE so this entire argument is invalid.

Conclusion

I propose either two suggestions...

1. We accept the feat due to actual statements and visuals supporting the calc which was already accepted here And we add a note or an explanation blog that goes over why the feat is accepted.

2. We completely disregard the feat using DMUA's logic of how the world realm references kingdom in the old timely language. (Which doesn't work in context) And the assumption that the cloud formation reaches up into space and to the sun... (even though it doesn't).

I'm honestly already tired of debating this, so it's whatever you guys decide, I stated my reasons why the arguments against don't work so it whatever.

 

[Ayewale]

My take on this (as someone acquainted with but not very well used to Danny Phantom) is that though this is arguably the wackiest calculation I have ever ******* seen on the site (not insulting lordgriffin) she seems technically correct for now.

For the record, realm was absolutely used in the middle ages quite often to refer to a kingdom/it's territory and a basic google search makes that clear. Actually, the definition of realm as a 'kingdom, country or city' is still commonly used, so even if she wasn't using old-timey speak, Occam's Razor would make the more common definition the one we should lean towards.

I feel like if they wanted to refer to an actual universe they would have almost undoubtedly used the word...'universe'. Unless they were trying to be old-timey, which would mean that the usage of the word 'realm' refers to the traditional meaning by default.

 

[DMUA]

she seems technically correct for now.

if I hear one more person confuse me for a girl I am going to strategically place people into caskets at an alarming rate

putting that haha funny aggression aside...

2. We completely disregard the feat using DMUA's logic of how the world realm references kingdom in the old timely language. (Which doesn't work in context) And the assumption that the cloud formation reaches up into space and to the sun... (even though it doesn't).

I did have this pointed out to me when I asked KLOL about it

Which... raises more questions, as to how the earth's atmosphere contains clouds that encapsulate a diameter of over a hundred times it's entirety, if that cloud isn't in space in some way. And, on top of that, if this truly is a matter of the clouds blocking out the sun, you can do that with a perfectly normal formation (And if that's supposed to mean "completely and utterly disperse all sunlight... That's demonstrably not what's happening in this case, either, considering all of the characters in the scene are fully capable of seeing each other without the help of much artifical lighting.), no need to encapsulate the sun's entire radius, when you can simply have the clouds be at cloud level and let simple trigonometry take care of it.

I honestly was giving the benefit of the doubt by figuring "oh they just think the clouds are inhabiting the entire dimension for a strange reason" as opposed to what the truth is, which is just... forgetting that you'd need to cover less of the sun and sunlight by proxy the further you get away with it and also people on discord talking about it made that mistake as well and I didn't look closely enough to correct it until KLOL brought it up

As the post above me mentioned, my citation for realm being countries or a set thereof is just the internet. Look up "realm" in google and you'll get the exact same result.

Which... is really all the talking points, for how much is being typed here

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with DMUA's logic for disregarding the 5-B calc. Maybe the feat doesn’t have to be discarded altogether since there are other calcs with more reasonable estimates of its yield.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree
jeez how many times is the ap rating going to change

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm currently neutral, i'll have to re-look over DMUA and her comments, alongside LordGiffon's debunks as well.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Which... raises more questions, as to how the earth's atmosphere contains clouds that encapsulate a diameter of over a hundred times it's entirety, if that cloud isn't in space in some way. And, on top of that, if this truly is a matter of the clouds blocking out the sun, you can do that with a perfectly normal formation (And if that's supposed to mean "completely and utterly disperse all sunlight... That's demonstrably not what's happening in this case, either, considering all of the characters in the scene are fully capable of seeing each other without the help of much artifical lighting.), no need to encapsulate the sun's entire radius, when you can simply have the clouds be at cloud level and let simple trigonometry take care of it.

That makes no sense when we have a clear statement that all time in the realm stands still and since the cloud formation is the cause, it means it extends across the entire realm which in canon means the entire space.

I honestly was giving the benefit of the doubt by figuring "oh they just think the clouds are inhabiting the entire dimension for a strange reason" as opposed to what the truth is, which is just... forgetting that you'd need to cover less of the sun and sunlight by proxy the further you get away with it and also people on discord talking about it made that mistake as well and I didn't look closely enough to correct it until KLOL brought it up

As the post above me mentioned, my citation for realm being countries or a set thereof is just the internet. Look up "realm" in google and you'll get the exact same result.

Which... is really all the talking points, for how much is being typed here

Again, unless when the definition of realm is told to us in verse so unless you can provide actual evidence from the verse that states she ment just the island which is bullshit since it's shown to extend farther than the kingdom itself, your argument is false.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I agree with DMUA's logic for disregarding the 5-B calc. Maybe the feat doesn’t have to be discarded altogether since there are other calcs with more reasonable estimates of its yield.

I will half to be shaped altogether because you'd be denying in verse statements and lore to fit some random statement about olden times that doesn't work in context because Dorathea isn't using old timely speak.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

My take on this (as someone acquainted with but not very well used to Danny Phantom) is that though this is arguably the wackiest calculation I have ever ******* seen on the site (not insulting lordgriffin) she seems technically correct for now.

No lie, I feel insulted but I know that wasn't your intention, it's cool, the feat is funny in general.

For the record, realm was absolutely used in the middle ages quite often to refer to a kingdom/it's territory and a basic google search makes that clear. Actually, the definition of realm as a 'kingdom, country or city' is still commonly used, so even if she wasn't using old-timey speak, Occam's Razor would make the more common definition the one we should lean towards.

I feel like if they wanted to refer to an actual universe they would have almost undoubtedly used the word...'universe'. Unless they were trying to be old-timey, which would mean that the usage of the word 'realm' refers to the traditional meaning by default.

No, the word realm has already been given an established meaning, and to say otherwise is to ignore statements and showings from the verse. DMUA just used the word universe which it isn't but the realms are the dimensional space that resides behind the door and since Dorathea doesn't speak in old time language and we have no reason to assume she ment the kingdom she the cloud formation visually extends beyond the kingdom and she says realm which already has an established meaning in verse.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

agree
jeez how many times is the ap rating going to change

To many, and it's likely going to be changed again after this.

 

[DMUA]

That makes no sense when we have a clear statement that all time in the realm stands still and since the cloud formation is the cause, it means it extends across the entire realm which in canon means the entire space.

If I am to understand correctly, you're saying that because time is standing still, in the realm (While they are standing directly on top of a medieval kingdom), that means that clouds cover the entire diameter of the sun in the dimension they are in, stretching past the earth and into space (might I remind you of the no atmosphere problem), but paradoxically it's only the height of a completely ordinary cloud layer blocking it out.

I just don't think that's a reasonable assumption, that's all.

Again, unless when the definition of realm is told to us in verse so unless you can provide actual evidence from the verse that states she meant just the island which is bullshit since it's shown to extend farther than the kingdom itself, your argument is false.

How far does it extend past the kingdom? I highly doubt it's nearly to the extreme degree you've stated it is, you'd want to back that up.

 

[Agnaa]

This calc would only make sense if the planet was far larger than the sun. As otherwise, the landmass of the planet could have the sun blocked out by a far smaller radius of clouds. Hell, if you are taking it to mean "the entire realm, and even space", then the current calc is not high enough, as the clouds would need to wrap around the entire sun's circumference to cause that effect.

All of this seems like an exceedingly high interpretation, given that time gets "un-stopped" while some clouds look to still be there; it seems to just be about light shining on the parts where people live.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

If I am to understand correctly, you're saying that because time is standing still, in the realm (While they are standing directly on top of a medieval kingdom), that means that clouds cover the entire diameter of the sun in the dimension they are in, stretching past the earth and into space (might I remind you of the no atmosphere problem), but paradoxically it's only the height of a completely ordinary cloud layer blocking it out.

I just don't think that's a reasonable assumption, that's all.

No, I'm saying that because Dorathe states "In the realm, all time stands still.", and the cloud formation is the cause, it means it covers the entire realm. Your the one who makes the assumption that because their standing on a a castle, that means she's only referring to the island the castle is on which has no backing because she would have said the kingdom but we literally see the cloud formation extend past that.

We have legit statements that explain what realms are refered to, and unless you have evidence that suggests realm means something else in the Danny Phantom verse, Dorathea means the dimension itself. Also, why do you keep saying Earth! They aren't on earth! There in a dimension with a sun in the space above and a cloud formation that stops the light from reaching the realm below, so given that the entire realm could stretch as far as it wants to and have no issue . Also, it's evident that the cloud formation is expanded in length but not in height so their is no reason to assume it's height is above the normal. Every time a character preforms a storm feat we never assume the height is above the norm unless given reason regardless of if it's a planetary storm or one that extends above the horizon. The same applies here.

How far does it extend past the kingdom? I highly doubt it's nearly to the extreme degree you've stated it is, you'd want to back that up.

I already backed up my claim! The realm is big enough to house a sun which is shown. However, all time stands still and the light can't reach the realm because of the cloud formation, and we have a statement that "all time" in the realm stands still which you continue to ignore. In order for all time in the realm to stand still, the cloud formation needs to reach both ends of the realm which is big enough in length to contain a sun.

Your the one who is making the claim that she's referring to the kingdom despite to cloud formation is shown reaching past that small was kingdom. Your logic that she's referring to the kingdom because old timely speak is also false because Dorathea doesn't speak that way anymore and already has knowledge on what realms are. The verse already established that those dimensions = The realms so your the one who needs evidence to back up she ment just the small kingdom.

This calc would only make sense if the planet was far larger than the sun. As otherwise, the landmass of the planet could have the sun blocked out by a far smaller radius of clouds. Hell, if you are taking it to mean "the entire realm, and even space", then the current calc is not high enough, as the clouds would need to wrap around the entire sun's circumference to cause that effect.

All of this seems like an exceedingly high interpretation, given that time gets "un-stopped" while some clouds look to still be there; it seems to just be about light shining on the parts where people live.

Where do you people keep getting the assumption that their on a planet!!! Because it's like y'all just want to piss me off at this point because you guys are making stuff up.

Nothing here is high interpretation, y'all just assuming shit at this point. She literally says it's time to the the realm out of the dark ages, where are you getting she just ment small portions! You see no dark areas after the split scene and we already know what they ment bet the realm so please stop with the assumptions.

 

[Agnaa]

Where do you people keep getting the assumption that their on a planet!!! Because it's like y'all just want to piss me off at this point because you guys are making stuff up.

Planet, flat plane the size of the sun, whatever. Doesn't make much difference to the strangeness of it.

Nothing here is high interpretation, y'all just assuming shit at this point. She literally says it's time to the the realm out of the dark ages, where are you getting she just ment small portions! You see no dark areas after the split scene and we already know what they ment bet the realm so please stop with the assumptions.

Then why aren't you calculating it as if the clouds wrap around the sun? That's what would be required to block the light from reaching anywhere in the dimension.

 

[Agnaa]

I just did a quick look at the numbers, and if the clouds really did block off the entire realm, by wrapping around the sun, some of the clouds would need to be moving faster than light to have the whole realm uncovered within 14 seconds.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Nothing here is high interpretation, y'all just assuming shit at this point. She literally says it's time to the the realm out of the dark ages, where are you getting she just ment small portions! You see no dark areas after the split scene and we already know what they ment bet the realm so please stop with the assumptions.

Then why aren't you calculating it as if the clouds wrap around the sun? That's what would be required to block the light from reaching anywhere in the dimension.

The method I chose was the best I could to my understanding of calcs and nobody wanted to calc the feat back when I brought it up before. I'm not a calc member or even good so forgive me for not creating a perfect ******* calc!

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I just did a quick look at the numbers, and if the clouds really did block off the entire realm, by wrapping around the sun, some of the clouds would need to be moving faster than light to have the whole realm uncovered within 14 seconds.

Then fine, I don't mind scrapping the feat for that legit reason.

 

[Agnaa]

Fair enough.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'll write up a note stating why the feat is invalid for use and will create another thread for scaling, God help, this is going to be a pain.