Daisuke Jigen VS Revolver Ocelot

[Stefano4444]

Speed Equalized and 8-B.

Both Jigen and Ocelot are restricted to their primary weapon and nothing else.

Smith & Wesson Model 19 for Jigen, Colt Single Action Army Revolver for Ocelot.

Daisuke Jigen: 0 ()

Revolver Ocelot: 2 (Twellas, Armorchompy)

Inconclusive: 0 ()

 

[Twellas]

No expert on Lupin, but I'm pretty sure Ocelot has marksmanship feats that blow Jigen out of the water, on top of him being better at literally everything else, am I missing something?

 

[Arcker123]

Pretty sure ocelot out skills heavily

 

[Twellas]

and outsmarts too

 

[Stefano4444]

Don't underestimate Jigen, the guy had consistently show to be on par with, and sometimes even superior to, Lupin in marksmanship, who can do all of this:

Spoiler: Lupin's Marksmanship

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[Twellas]

the problem here is that even if we say Jigen's aim is better (which is a big if) what prevents Ocelot from sneaking up on him with his stealth mastery and fold his ass in 2? (I don't think anyone is going to argue that Ocelot is miles above anyone from Lupin III in terms of CQC)

 

[Armorchompy]

Ocelot never goes for stealth in-character, he can do it but it ain't his thing. He would if he realized he had to of course but this fight's gonna end quickly.

 

[Twellas]

we don't actually know about him going stealth in-character because a lot of the times he either doesn't need to, but most of his plots hinge on him infiltrating, so we know he's not against it, and him having FOXHOUND training would mean that he's a stealth operative above all else. Unless we wanna say that Jigen one-taps him (which is at most unlikely) he's going to engage in a short gunfight and, if he finds himself outclassed, just stealth his way around Jigen (won't be hard, they are only "hundreds of meters" apart) and CQC Jigen into submission

 

[Armorchompy]

He never has to use it but there cases where he could, of course everything in the MGS series is part of Revolver Ocelot's biggest brain play so it's hard to tell, but he definitely could have gotten that, and the infiltration he specializes in is a completely unrelated kind.

Honestly, though, Jigen's shooting feats seem a tad better to me. Speed equalized means no bullet dodging, and I doubt either of them's gonna land a shot but miss the kill. And stealth is good but you can't do it if someone's looking at you, in a half-empty Central Park.

 

[Twellas]

Now that I think about it, Ocelot sneaked his way into the tanker in MGS2. He's specialized in both stealth AND infiltration, they are not mutually esclusive.

Pretty sure there's a lot of ways to stealth around in Central Park.

right off the bat they both have equal chances of winning given how neither of them would miss such easy shots in-character, but what I'm saying is that Ocelot is far better in everything else and has a secondary, very likely and surified wincon, Jigen doesn't

 

[Armorchompy]

That is true, though I still think 90% of the time the fight'll end in a shootout. Still, That just means Ocelot wins 54.5% of the time.

 

[Twellas]

waait, Ocelot's EM shield is restricted, right?

 

[Armorchompy]

It's not stated but I assume that's the intention, since otherwise it's a stomp. It should be put in optional equipment tho, ill do that RQ

 

[Stefano4444]

waait, Ocelot's EM shield is restricted, right?

Yes

 

[Armorchompy]

If I didn't make that clear I am voting for Ocelot though I hope this doesn't turn into a FRA train just yet.

 

[Twellas]

ok ok, that would have made this a stomp.

Regardless, my vote is for Ocelot FRA, he's just Jigen but with far better CQC, intellect, stealth and stamina (don't forget about the fact that Ocelot has self-sustenance and can't feel pain due to nanomachines)

 

[Armorchompy]

Actually, Jigen has Enhances Senses and Stealth Mastery of his own, I just realized. Sneaking up on him might be very hard.

 

[Twellas]

everyone in MGS has Enhanced Senses, even the fodder, sneaking around people with ES is absolutely mundane for MGS characters

 

[Stefano4444]

Ocelot never goes for stealth in-character, he can do it but it ain't his thing. He would if he realized he had to of course but this fight's gonna end quickly.

Even if he do, it wouldn't be that easily, Jigen had a lot of experience in regard of stealth and infiltration will all the adventures he had with Lupin.

And Lupin's stealth skills are easily on the same level of Solid Snake, arguably even better.

 

[Armorchompy]

everyone in MGS has Enhanced Senses, even the fodder, sneaking around people with ES is absolutely mundane for MGS characters

MGS ES aren't mindblowing, it depends how strong Jigen's are.

 

[Twellas]

BTW it's also possible that Ocelot's AD applies to his marksmanship, in which case he's just going to annihilate in the gunfight

 

[Armorchompy]

MGS AD also takes a few hours and this fight's ending in like, a minute at best. But I agree it applies to guns.

 

[Twellas]

Not really, it took him "hours" to master CQC, which is an incredibly complex technique made up of like 30 different martial arts, something as trivial as marksmanship would take significantly less

 

[Armorchompy]

Not really, it took him "hours" to master CQC, which is an incredibly complex technique made up of like 30 different martial arts, something as trivial as marksmanship would take significantly less

I mean, it still wouldn't take a minute. That's just baseless guesswork. Besides, the more you know about something the less you can learn.

 

[Twellas]

The idea that the fight would only last a minute is only an assumption, if they take cover it might go on for hours, and he doesn't really need to improve THAT drastically. Also now that I think of it, they're gonna run out of bullets sooner or later if it comes to a cover-shootout (which it likely will, because the alternatives are that they just stand there or that one insta-kills the other), at which point Ocelot just wins due to his superiority in CQC

 

[Armorchompy]

I really don't think it'll be this drawn-out. Though, if they go behind cover that's a win for Ocelot- he can make his bullets bounce around to Jigen while I haven't seen any feat like that from him. However, one will likely kill the other with the first opportunity of a shot they have, with how skilled they are. Definitely not enough to run out of bullets, they wouldn't waste any shots.

That said, unless you're saying that Ocelot passively gets better through every day of his life, I'm not sure if just sitting behind cover would boost his skill much.

 

[Twellas]

my point is that Ocelot has everything going for him and has a ton of advantages and additional wincons.

His AD works via sight, seeing Jigen fire would be enough, and that's if we assume Jigen is better

 

[Twellas]

TLDR:

In a straight up gunfight they both have equal chances of winning
Cover fight: Ocelot wins
Prologed fight: Ocelot wins
They run out of bullets: Ocelot wins
Stamina/attrition fight: Ocelot wins

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree with that mostly, though I think Jigen's aiming feats are a slight bit better.

 

[Twellas]

I agree with that mostly, though I think Jigen's aiming feats are a slight bit better.

pretty much irrelevant in this case, "hundreds of meters" is not far enough of a range for it to come into play, both have a clear view of a target of a size they both consistently bulls-eye

 

[Twellas]

BTW Jigen has his hat as a weekness, if he loses it his aim won't be that good, so add this to Ocelot's advantages I guess

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

BTW Jigen has his hat as a weakness, if he loses it his aim won't be that good, so add this to Ocelot's advantages I guess

Actually apparently No, the hat according to the official wiki of the verse said it wouldn't be too much of a problem at the end of it all.

Either way say what you want to say for now but Jigen still has much MUCH more to him then you think and we still have yet to see a respect thread on him if we didn't catch it. Fair reminder the verse has a span of 50+ YEARS AND COUNTING and a total of 41 movies throughout the years. And in case you didn't know some trivia on the series, the creator of MGS was actually inspired by Lupin's tactics and adventures and David Hayter also voiced Lupin in the Castle of Caligostro movie.

 

[Armorchompy]

I can totally believe his skills are even better than this, but in a VS thread that's not enough evidence.

 

[Twellas]

Actually apparently No, the hat according to the official wiki of the verse said it wouldn't be too much of a problem at the end of it all.

Either way say what you want to say for now but Jigen still has much MUCH more to him then you think and we still have yet to see a respect thread on him if we didn't catch it. Fair reminder the verse has a span of 50+ YEARS AND COUNTING and a total of 41 movies throughout the years. And in case you didn't know some trivia on the series, the creator of MGS was actually inspired by Lupin's tactics and adventures and David Hayter also voiced Lupin in the Castle of Caligostro movie.

I know all of this, I watched a good deal of Lupin movies, it's just that none of the ones i watched had any impressive feats, those seeem to mainly come from the anime. I also knew about the fact that Kojima allegedly took inspiration from Lupin while creating Snake (I really, REALLY don't see it tbh, the inspiration to Snake Plissken is much more blatant and accurate to me but whatever)

Unless you can show me evidence of Jigen's h2h skills holding a candle to those of Ocelot (i very much doubt you can), or of Jigen not needing to eat and sleep due to nanomachines, or of Jigen being able to master a martial art in like 2 hours just by seeing it, none of this is gonna matter. The point here isn't that Ocelot is so much better as a marksman, it's that he has a ton of stuff going for him that Jigen simply doesn't have, and he can easily cover the eventual gap in marksmanship skill in a short timeframe with his AD