Lupin III revisions: Koikeverse Update

[Detective_Blizzard]

Howdy there, got a more straightforward revision here as I want for the other one to get approval while I update that one with improved translations and images. This revision sets it's sights on undoing a previous removal which removed The Woman Called Fujiko and all her related content from the profiles. The reasonings given for it were very questionable and likely wouldn't even matter for the series as I will explain in this thread.

Now then, let's address the reasons for the removal.

1. "The ``LUPIN THE IIIRD'' series continues the adult and dangerous world of the original Monkey Punch and depicts the encounters and trajectories of young Lupine and his friends. To date, three works have been released as a series: "Daisuke Jigen's Tombstone" (2013), "Blood Smoke of Ishikawa Goemon" (2015), and "Fujiko Mine's Lies" (2019)." - This line of logic is flawed for one massive reason, IT APPLIES TO THE ENTIRE FRANCHISE AS A WHOLE. Every single piece of official Lupin media is classified as Monkey Punch's original work by the same official site, Woman Called Fujiko included.
2. "Mamo also shows up at the end of Jigen's Gravestone, but we don't know whether or not this leads to Mystery of Mamo since he never showed up in this continuity again even after two films." - This point doesn't matter since even if the movies end up contradicting Mystery of Mamo, that would be consistent for the franchise as a whole. The continuity has always been almost non-existent in this series, with various retcons such as how the gang met in Part 1, how they met in Episode 0, how they go back to Part 1 logic in Is Lupin Still Burning?, how they retcon that again in Lupin Zero, ect ect. Then you have more individual retcons for characters specifically like Goemon's hilariously inconsistent backstory which involves his original master dying twice and the Zantetsuken having not one, not two, but at least 3 different backstories from the top of my head.
3. The anime series doesn't even follow the manga's original logic whatsoever. In the manga characters like Jigen and Lupin are noticeably different, so much so that Jigen is practically a different character with how he tries to seduce women and is considered a worse shot than both Lupin and Fujiko (can't show scans of that around here, that manga is too adult for it's own good). With Mamo showing up just furthering the idea that it's just another variation of the same cast that we are used to.

TLDR: Original reasons make no sense and Lupin III has Type 1 Abstract Existence and Type 3 Nonexistent Physiology as continuity /s

Now for the changes made due to this reversion.

Koikeverse Characters

This section is exclusive to the characters from the movies..... which currently only include Hawk, however I have made profiles for Bincam and Yael that already include the alterations made so they shall be added once this revision is approved. I'll only shortly explain Hawk

Hawk: Has his profile updated to this, mostly just ability additions that should've been there before. The only thing that's removed is Expert at Hand to Hand due to the feat not even showing any Hand to Hand combat as it's just him standing above corpses soaked in blood.

Main Characters
Abilities that need to be added or re-added due to this media returning to their profiles (Side note, Fujiko Mine is so hilariously outdated that she still has the render from before this change was made)

Nothing happens for Zenigata because his movie is stuck in limbo

Lupin gets his Enhanced Sight and Pain Tolerance feats back

Jigen gains Hacking as seen here

Because this is a Lupin III Revision, Goemon clearly needs to be buffed several times

• He regains his Precognition and Stamina, plus should also gain Instinctive Reaction with the Precog as seen here and here where it's repeatedly shown to be through his internal instincts. With Lupin practically descripting it as such calling it the Divine eye
• He should also get Accelerated Development and Supernatural Willpower due to him gaining these from extensive training without eating or drinking in 3 day
• Edit: This also qualifies as a Immense Pain Tolerance for the obvious reasons above
• Fear Manipulation and Illusion Creation, Goemon is capable of instilling so much fear that his opponent will foresee and experience their own death to force them to surrender

Because this is a Lupin III Revision, Fujiko Mine gets

• The same as she usually does

Agree:
@Elizhaa @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Arcker123, @Fireld, @Stefano4444, @Tonygameman (I assume they are agreeing due to them liking the post), and @DimeUhDozen (Presumably)

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Fireld]

Agree with everything, good job!

I think Yael's bionic eye ability would be more like Clairvoyance (Visual Linking) rather than Enhanced Senses

Nothing happens for Zenigata because his movie is stuck in limbo

TLDR: Original reasons make no sense and Lupin III has Type 1 Abstract Existence and Type 3 Nonexistent Physiology as continuity /s
... Because this is a Lupin III Revision, Fujiko Mine gets

• The same as she usually does

LMAO!!!

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Disagree. I direct towards some interviews to back me up.

Interviewer: The nuances of the characters are slightly different in the original and the TV series. Which direction are you going? The situations and character settings of the episodes featuring Goemon in Koike's original work and First Lupin are quite similar. Koike: He still has a slightly cocky and arrogant vibe, and this work is similar. I created it with the image of Goemon after episode 5 of First Lupin in mind. -- The "Lupin the IIIrd" series is Lupin for adults, so this is reflected not only in the story but also in the expressions throughout.

Interviewer: With the so-called live-action film series 007, DC, and Marvel, the method of "rebooting" existing dramas, in which they are reset to a blank slate and started from the beginning, has been accepted by audiences. Did this also have some influence on the creation of the previous "Lupin the Third" series, "The Woman Called Fujiko Mine" and the "Lupin the IIIrd" series?

Koike: "I don't know about that. At the very least, I don't think any of the Lupin series have been influenced by any particular series or reboot of a work. As for me, as I said, the driving force behind the "LUPIN THE ⅢRD" series was the desire to "embody the Lupin that I wanted to see." However, if it was a one-off or ended abruptly, I wouldn't be able to be proud of it as a "series." "Fujiko Mine's Lie" also depicts certain hints that connect to the previous two films. My immediate goal is to depict the drama that I want to create and complete "LUPIN THE ⅢRD" as a series."

The text strongly suggests that it is disconnected from the main series and is following a different and personal vision of the character, which would not be consistent with how he is portrayed in the anime. He also makes it a point to note how his version adapts traits of the original to use in his own spin and differentiating them as opposed to directly contributing to it’s canon.

I would also like to retract my statement on A Woman Called Fujiko Mine, that is, according to this, I do not believe it is connected to anything.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Disagree. I direct towards some interviews to back me up.

Interviewer: The nuances of the characters are slightly different in the original and the TV series. Which direction are you going? The situations and character settings of the episodes featuring Goemon in Koike's original work and First Lupin are quite similar. Koike: He still has a slightly cocky and arrogant vibe, and this work is similar. I created it with the image of Goemon after episode 5 of First Lupin in mind. -- The "Lupin the IIIrd" series is Lupin for adults, so this is reflected not only in the story but also in the expressions throughout.

This literally doesn't mean anything except that the tone of the series is different, this is literally true for Parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 as each one has a different vibe than the last. Part 1 was intended for adults, Part 2 was intended for families, Part 3 is half filled with goofy nonsense, part 4 is focused on characters, part 5 is focused on the franchise as a whole, and part 6 has biblical heaven and hell. Hell that quote adds extra proof that it's just another version of the same characters as he's taking inspirations from the anime for it again.

Interviewer: With the so-called live-action film series 007, DC, and Marvel, the method of "rebooting" existing dramas, in which they are reset to a blank slate and started from the beginning, has been accepted by audiences. Did this also have some influence on the creation of the previous "Lupin the Third" series, "The Woman Called Fujiko Mine" and the "Lupin the IIIrd" series?

Koike: "I don't know about that. At the very least, I don't think any of the Lupin series have been influenced by any particular series or reboot of a work. As for me, as I said, the driving force behind the "LUPIN THE ⅢRD" series was the desire to "embody the Lupin that I wanted to see." However, if it was a one-off or ended abruptly, I wouldn't be able to be proud of it as a "series." "Fujiko Mine's Lie" also depicts certain hints that connect to the previous two films. My immediate goal is to depict the drama that I want to create and complete "LUPIN THE ⅢRD" as a series."

Again, that means nothing. The Lupin franchise as a whole has different versions and the man himself says that he doesn't believe the Lupin series has been influenced by any series or reboot. He doesn't see it as a reboot because it's the exact same cast just a version of them he wants to see. We've seen this plenty of times in the series because every single Lupin is someone else's version of him. We have the likes of Ōsumi who made the adult versions of characters Koike wanted to return to, Miyazaki who put a more gentleman spin on the series and influenced a large bulk of what was to come, Yoshikawa who made the erratic and non-serious version that applies to neither of the above from Mystery of Mamo, Junichi Iioka and Hiroyuki Onoda who created the cartoony and wacky Part 3 versions, Oshii who had ideas to make The Legend of the Gold of Babylon into one of various insane versions that don't fall in line with typical Lupin fashion, some of which actually because episodes (See 'biblical heaven and hell'). And these are just a few different people from this long franchise who have tonally different characters and series, however they all come together to make the Lupin franchise we use today.

As for what's official, we once again have the Lupin Net which lists Woman called Fujiko as a spin off, due to Lupin not being the primary character, and the Koikeverse as regular Lupin III movies. There is no reason to exclude them specifically when every single reason to do so would apply to every single part of Lupin, this is a franchise built by countless different directors and writers each with their own goals and views for the series. Koike is just one of them that decided to make it more adult because he wanted to make a version of Lupin true to the original themes of Part 1.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

The text strongly suggests that it is disconnected from the main series and is following a different and personal vision of the character, which would not be consistent with how he is portrayed in the anime. He also makes it a point to note how his version adapts traits of the original to use in his own spin and differentiating them as opposed to directly contributing to it’s canon.

As stated previously, that applies to practically every single thing outside of the Modern Era. The franchise practically never follows 'canon' and just does whatever it wants with it's cast of characters. There's often some similarities due to personality being consistent (which the Koikeverse does as well) however the only times they actually contribute to a canon from what I recall outside of Parts 4-6 (Part 6 even then is debatable due to some of the things it does) is episode 1 of part 2 which has Scorpion come back, the two Part 1 specials/movies that return Pycal and Mamo, and Red vs Green....... which is such a convoluted mess that it just treats all the continuity as both real and unreal

 

[DimeUhDozen]

This literally doesn't mean anything except that the tone of the series is different, this is literally true for Parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 as each one has a different vibe than the last. Part 1 was intended for adults, Part 2 was intended for families, Part 3 is half filled with goofy nonsense, part 4 is focused on characters, part 5 is focused on the franchise as a whole, and part 6 has biblical heaven and hell. Hell that quote adds extra proof that it's just another version of the same characters as he's taking inspirations from the anime for it again.



Again, that means nothing. The Lupin franchise as a whole has different versions and the man himself says that he doesn't believe the Lupin series has been influenced by any series or reboot. He doesn't see it as a reboot because it's the exact same cast just a version of them he wants to see.

That’s not what’s stated. It’s his vision of the characters and his series. He even lists the Lupin IIIrd series as it’s own separate thing, differentiating it from the main anime. It does not get any more clear cut than that.

We've seen this plenty of times in the series because every single Lupin is someone else's version of him. We have the likes of Ōsumi who made the adult versions of characters Koike wanted to return to, Miyazaki who put a more gentleman spin on the series and influenced a large bulk of what was to come, Yoshikawa who made the erratic and non-serious version that applies to neither of the above from Mystery of Mamo, Junichi Iioka and Hiroyuki Onoda who created the cartoony and wacky Part 3 versions, Oshii who had ideas to make The Legend of the Gold of Babylon into one of various insane versions that don't fall in line with typical Lupin fashion, some of which actually because episodes (See 'biblical heaven and hell'). And these are just a few different people from this long franchise who have tonally different characters and series, however they all come together to make the Lupin franchise we use today.

Yeah, except all of those have been proven to be part of the main anime on both ends, so that argument is kind of moot.

As for what's official, we once again have the Lupin Net which lists Woman called Fujiko as a spin off, due to Lupin not being the primary character, and the Koikeverse as regular Lupin III movies. There is no reason to exclude them specifically when every single reason to do so would apply to every single part of Lupin, this is a franchise built by countless different directors and writers each with their own goals and views for the series. Koike is just one of them that decided to make it more adult because he wanted to make a version of Lupin true to the original themes of Part 1.

Spin-offs can be non-canon. We’ve seen that countless times on the wiki. You’ve even said yourself that he wanted to create a version of Lupin. Not the actual Lupin from the anime. The difference is that all of those writers contributed to mainline canon. Lupin PART II, Lupin PART III, implying that they all come after each other, which is reflected in the main anime. But this is something different entirely.

As stated previously, that applies to practically every single thing outside of the Modern Era. The franchise practically never follows 'canon' and just does whatever it wants with it's cast of characters. There's often some similarities due to personality being consistent (which the Koikeverse does as well) however the only times they actually contribute to a canon from what I recall outside of Parts 4-6 (Part 6 even then is debatable due to some of the things it does) is episode 1 of part 2 which has Scorpion come back, the two Part 1 specials/movies that return Pycal and Mamo, and Red vs Green....... which is such a convoluted mess that it just treats all the continuity as both real and unreal

Yeah, and the likes of Scooby-Doo have to abide by those same rules and still maintain some sort of consistency. Lupin III is not special because of these reasons and I think it would be a failure of the wiki’s part to give this series a pass because of someone saying there is “no such thing as canon” when there obviously is. Retcons to the main plot are not an excuse to lump everything together since it’s been proved that there is something of a continuity.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

That’s not what’s stated. It’s his vision of the characters and his series. He even lists the Lupin IIIrd series as it’s own separate thing, differentiating it from the main anime. It does not get any more clear cut than that.

They also list Parts 1 2 3 4 5 and 6 as their own individual different series, that doesn't change the fact they are part of the franchise. And as I said 'his vision of the characters and series' applies to so much of it that it's a non-statement

Yeah, except all of those have been proven to be part of the main anime on both ends, so that argument is kind of moot.

They also confirm the manga is canon in the anime several times over, with things like Kichiza Nezumi and Starmow showing up, the fact that Lupin's face is just a mask and nobody knows what he really looks like (despite this being contradicted dozens of times over, including media that it confirms), and the entirety of Lupin Zero following the manga's origin for Jigen and Lupin where they were childhood friends. The entire idea of needing to 'prove' you are canon in this franchise is foolish

Spin-offs can be non-canon. We’ve seen that countless times on the wiki. You’ve even said yourself that he wanted to create a version of Lupin. Not the actual Lupin from the anime. The difference is that all of those writers contributed to mainline canon. Lupin PART II, Lupin PART III, implying that they all come after each other, which is reflected in the main anime. But this is something different entirely.

Nothing implies that it's not canon, and the mainline series itself doesn't do this and you yourself have tried to argue one of the characters dying in a mainline episode. WCFM and the Koikeverse are no different than anything else from the franchise other than tone, trying to remove it because it's trying to be different completely invalidates the grand bulk of the series including things that are 'confirmed canon' (and contradicted by such confirmation)

Yeah, and the likes of Scooby-Doo have to abide by those same rules and still maintain some sort of consistency. Lupin III is not special because of these reasons and I think it would be a failure of the wiki’s part to give this series a pass because of someone saying there is “no such thing as canon” when there obviously is. Retcons to the main plot are not an excuse to lump everything together since it’s been proved that there is something of a continuity.

Scooby-Doo lacks a mainline series, has a confirmed multiverse, has completely different series made by different companies, and has things that go far outside of it's normal bounds.

Lupin III does have a mainline series, nothing implying different iterations of the characters, has everything produced and approved by TMS Entertainment and it's subsidiaries, and generally doesn't go outside of it's typical mold. The part of the franchise that has truly different characters is the original Monkey Punch manga, which even the mainline series acknowledges from time to time and sometimes credits as canon material. However we don't due to just how different it is on a fundamental basis.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Also, side thing, if we really want to get into the specifics and discredit things for being classified as "Spin Offs", then you just disproved your own point due to WCFM being seperated from the IIIrd movies which the official Lupin site clasify as regular Lupin movie material treating it on equal grounds as Cagliostro and Mystery of Mamo

 

[DimeUhDozen]

They also list Parts 1 2 3 4 5 and 6 as their own individual different series, that doesn't change the fact they are part of the franchise. And as I said 'his vision of the characters and series' applies to so much of it that it's a non-statement

The main anime is made up of parts. I genuinely do not understand this argument.

They also confirm the manga is canon in the anime several times over, with things like Kichiza Nezumi and Starmow showing up, the fact that Lupin's face is just a mask and nobody knows what he really looks like (despite this being contradicted dozens of times over, including media that it confirms), and the entirety of Lupin Zero following the manga's origin for Jigen and Lupin where they were childhood friends. The entire idea of needing to 'prove' you are canon in this franchise is foolish

If you have proof of this, then directly link it instead of us having to take your word for it. Since Lupin the anime is an adaptation of the manga, then Nezumi and Starmow’s cameos could just be that. Small cameos. If they do not actually serve a narrative purpose in connecting the series to the manga. Just like Lupin Zero. It is adapting the manga’s origins and adaptations can go in vastly different directions from the original source.

Nothing implies that it's not canon, and the mainline series itself doesn't do this and you yourself have tried to argue one of the characters dying in a mainline episode. WCFM and the Koikeverse are no different than anything else from the franchise other than tone, trying to remove it because it's trying to be different completely invalidates the grand bulk of the series including things that are 'confirmed canon' (and contradicted by such confirmation)

Yes, to prove an argument of how ambiguous the feat was. We couldn’t prove what happened to Fujiko thus making the feat invalid. What’s different is the director directly confirmed that WCFM and Koikeverse have no relation and are a part of different series. Going by this basis, it would have no relation to the main series as well.

Scooby-Doo lacks a mainline series, has a confirmed multiverse, has completely different series made by different companies, and has things that go far outside of it's normal bounds.

Lupin III does have a mainline series, nothing implying different iterations of the characters, has everything produced and approved by TMS Entertainment and it's subsidiaries, and generally doesn't go outside of it's typical mold. The part of the franchise that has truly different characters is the original Monkey Punch manga, which even the mainline series acknowledges from time to time and sometimes credits as canon material. However we don't due to just how different it is on a fundamental basis.

And this is why we can composite most of Scooby-Doo and not Lupin. If you want to compile them together then make a map or a blog or something of everything that proves your point instead of thinking taking your argument at base value is going to be the winning point you want it to be.

Also, side thing, if we really want to get into the specifics and discredit things for being classified as "Spin Offs", then you just disproved your own point due to WCFM being seperated from the IIIrd movies which the official Lupin site clasify as regular Lupin movie material treating it on equal grounds as Cagliostro and Mystery of Mamo

The site is not the gotcha you think it is. It’s a website, not a timeline. Of course it would advertise everything in the franchise.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

I cannot speak on Starmow specifically as I don’t have the links that tell me this, but according to the wiki page, I found something interesting. It details how the manga and the anime have different histories. It’s almost like the anime adapted his story instead of directly connecting it. Almost as if the major inconsistencies could be fixed by simply deeming these two works non-canon to each other instead of lumping them all together in an alphabet soup of continuity.

Starmow

Starmow is a character who appeared in the San Francisco arc of the Shin Lupin III manga and a mercenary who appeared in Lupin the Third Part III. Due to that the manga is written in Japanese with no English or accessible translation, there is missing information as the events written below come...

lupin.fandom.com

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

The main anime is made up of parts. I genuinely do not understand this argument.

The parts contradict themselves and basically make no sense is what I'm saying, if we discredit the other material for doing so then we have to discredit the parts as well for following similar logic

If you have proof of this, then directly link it instead of us having to take your word for it. Since Lupin the anime is an adaptation of the manga, then Nezumi and Starmow’s cameos could just be that. Small cameos. If they do not actually serve a narrative purpose in connecting the series to the manga. Just like Lupin Zero. It is adapting the manga’s origins and adaptations can go in vastly different directions from the original source.

The proof of this is the part 5 episodes the part episodes 21 and beyond and while yes Nezumi is a cameo, Starmow appeared in another one. However regardless of what how important those smaller details are the mask face thing is like the massive reveal twist of part 5 which originated from the manga. While the series derives from the manga it is largely it's own thing and rarely takes points from it and prefers to just adapt from it's own movies/tv specials/parts.

Yes, to prove an argument of how ambiguous the feat was. We couldn’t prove what happened to Fujiko thus making the feat invalid. What’s different is the director directly confirmed that WCFM and Koikeverse have no relation and are a part of different series. Going by this basis, it would have no relation to the main series as well.

The director never confirmed that, he confirmed and I quote " I created it with the image of Goemon after episode 5 of First Lupin in mind. -- The "Lupin the IIIrd" series is Lupin for adults, so this is reflected not only in the story but also in the expressions throughout." that it's a series made for adults, " I don't think any of the Lupin series have been influenced by any particular series or reboot of a work" it's not influenced by any form of reboot, and " As for me, as I said, the driving force behind the "LUPIN THE ⅢRD" series was the desire to "embody the Lupin that I wanted to see." that it's a version of Lupin he wanted to see, which we know for a fact is derived from part 1. Nothing about these points say that he's making a new continuity with these characters any different from the others done before or that this series is completely separated from the main one. There is nothing about this that says there is no relation however there are things stated that show a direct relation.

And this is why we can composite most of Scooby-Doo and not Lupin. If you want to compile them together then make a map or a blog or something of everything that proves your point instead of thinking taking your argument at base value is going to be the winning point you want it to be.

......... you do realize we composite most of Lupin right? Having various examples that derive from different movies and specials like Alcatraz Connection, Dead or Alive, Gold of Babylon, The Last Job, Operation Return the Treasure, Mystery of the Hemingway Papers, The Mystery of Mamo, Memories of the Flame ~Tokyo Crisis~, Record of Observations of the East - Another Page, and Is Lupin Still Burning?. The grand bulk of these things have no direct confirmation in the main series and are allowed due to being official works, the only parts of the franchise that is currently considered not applicable is the manga due to being fundamentally different in every regard and the Koikeverse because of your very limited reasons. There is no reason to make a blog about something that only you are trying to apply to the franchise.

The site is not the gotcha you think it is. It’s a website, not a timeline. Of course it would advertise everything in the franchise.

This is literally the gotcha you used for your own point and by discrediting it you are discrediting the original removal point itself.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Hell, I don't even think Mystery of Mamo is ever confirmed in the mainline series, I think it's only Cagliostro in the list that we use that's ever been confirmed in-universe and I forgot to list it in that point so I think everything I listed here

Alcatraz Connection, Dead or Alive, Gold of Babylon, The Last Job, Operation Return the Treasure, Mystery of the Hemingway Papers, The Mystery of Mamo, Memories of the Flame ~Tokyo Crisis~, Record of Observations of the East - Another Page, and Is Lupin Still Burning?.

Is literally compositing all Lupin media outside of the mainline series

 

[DimeUhDozen]

The parts contradict themselves and basically make no sense is what I'm saying, if we discredit the other material for doing so then we have to discredit the parts as well for following similar logic

Then show me these contradictions that are supposedly in the room with us because from the ones you’ve already listed… Episode 0 is a story told from Lupin’s perspective that ends with it being strongly implied that he made everything the hell up. Lupin Zero can be cleared up simply by saying that it is non-canon to the main anime which would not contradict anything. And Lupin Part 1 can be cleared up by saying the manga and the anime are in different canons.

The proof of this is the part 5 episodes the part episodes 21 and beyond and while yes Nezumi is a cameo, Starmow appeared in another one. However regardless of what how important those smaller details are the mask face thing is like the massive reveal twist of part 5 which originated from the manga. While the series derives from the manga it is largely it's own thing and rarely takes points from it and prefers to just adapt from it's own movies/tv specials/parts.

See the adaptation point above. That does not mean it’s canon.

The director never confirmed that, he confirmed and I quote " I created it with the image of Goemon after episode 5 of First Lupin in mind. -- The "Lupin the IIIrd" series is Lupin for adults, so this is reflected not only in the story but also in the expressions throughout." that it's a series made for adults, " I don't think any of the Lupin series have been influenced by any particular series or reboot of a work" it's not influenced by any form of reboot, and " As for me, as I said, the driving force behind the "LUPIN THE ⅢRD" series was the desire to "embody the Lupin that I wanted to see." that it's a version of Lupin he wanted to see, which we know for a fact is derived from part 1. Nothing about these points say that he's making a new continuity with these characters any different from the others done before or that this series is completely separated from the main one. There is nothing about this that says there is no relation however there are things stated that show a direct relation.

Okay, so the director says that Lupin IIIrd and AWCFM are different series. No connection to each other, correct? It’s clear cut. And in the same way, he thinks Lupin IIIrd and the anime as different series. So, bam. There’s your answer.

......... you do realize we composite most of Lupin right? Having various examples that derive from different movies and specials like Alcatraz Connection, Dead or Alive, Gold of Babylon, The Last Job, Operation Return the Treasure, Mystery of the Hemingway Papers, The Mystery of Mamo, Memories of the Flame ~Tokyo Crisis~, Record of Observations of the East - Another Page, and Is Lupin Still Burning?. The grand bulk of these things have no direct confirmation in the main series and are allowed due to being official works, the only parts of the franchise that is currently considered not applicable is the manga due to being fundamentally different in every regard and the Koikeverse because of your very limited reasons. There is no reason to make a blog about something that only you are trying to apply to the franchise.

That just digs you an even deeper hole. If none of these have any canonicity to the main anime, then why do we even lump them together? “Official works” is clearly not enough grounds to support this level of composite.

This is literally the gotcha you used for your own point and by discrediting it you are discrediting the original removal point itself.

No, you’re severely misunderstanding my point. I used a site to point out how the series is officially labeled as a series called “Lupin IIIrd”, focusing especially on those works. You are using a much broader website that advertises all of Lupin’s works to make an argument about canon.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Then show me these contradictions that are supposedly in the room with us because from the ones you’ve already listed… Episode 0 is a story told from Lupin’s perspective that ends with it being strongly implied that he made everything the hell up. Lupin Zero can be cleared up simply by saying that it is non-canon to the main anime which would not contradict anything. And Lupin Part 1 can be cleared up by saying the manga and the anime are in different canons.

Easy really, as I mentioned before the part 5 episodes make reference to it, directly showing the time they fought in Episode 0 and treating it as a real memory. Episode 0 is confirmed canon in it and while it's strongly implied he made everything the hell up it's also strongly implied that it was all true in the end.

Okay, so the director says that Lupin IIIrd and AWCFM are different series. No connection to each other, correct? It’s clear cut. And in the same way, he thinks Lupin IIIrd and the anime as different series. So, bam. There’s your answer.

Lupin III parts 1 and 3 are different series with no connection to each other by paper. The only thing that connects them is the point that they are mainline series but again the same can be said for the Koikeverse due to it being considered the same type of movies as Cagliostro and Mamo. Also again Mamo exists which is a connection as well as the fact that it's takes the inspirations from the same version of characters that everything else takes inspiration of. Being different series and different continuities are completely separate meanings and the reason why the Koichiverse is a series is due to the fact its a series of movies that connect to each other. So no, that's not your answer.

That just digs you an even deeper hole. If none of these have any canonicity to the main anime, then why do we even lump them together? “Official works” is clearly not enough grounds to support this level of composite.

Because they are all made by and approved by the creator company TMS and it's related companies, there is no grounds to separate them except for the impression that the series is only comprised of the mainline parts and nothing more. Everything everywhere about this series has been made and worked on by different people with both mainline series, side series, movies, and TV Specials never having any real need for canon due to them all following their own rules. Like I said abstract existent and nonexistent physiology, the canon only exists at the moment and time that you look at it because if you look anywhere else it will become non-canon. The main series doesn't try and stick to past events so trying to apply it to it's official side materials which completely outclass it in terms of size. which amount to 50 different things (some not being that viable such as the few live actions or crossovers) doesn't make much sense if there's no good reason to.

Allow me to take from our wiki's section on canon

"The generally agreed-upon definition is that the work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canonical, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise. Notably, if a work is referred to by the author/publisher as "canon-adjacent" or otherwise given an endorsement of canonicity that contains some form of asterisk (mostly canon, etc) in the absence of more specific information it should be assumed that these works are not usable given our inability to determine what aspects of the work are not fully canon. A few other exceptions are also possible and should be noted on the verse page."

"The primary canon is the source material first released (with few possible exceptions), with the other author works being secondary canon."

Lupin does not apply to this type of canon, as Monkey Punch has never touched the series past the manga and we don't use it. The grand bulk of it is TMS and everything we use and will use will likely be connected to them.

Now lets look at Alternative Canon

"However, problem can arise from this: If one were to allow all alternate and/or non-canon versions of said characters, we would eventually be crowded with dozens of alternate profiles for the same characters. As such, certain limitations must be placed:"

"1) Certain franchises feature several characters that are considered as equally valid "official" versions of the character. These types of profiles can generally be created without any problems."

This is the closest one that can be applicable, however it runs the very real issue of having to separate every single part of the franchise from each individual mainline part (each one if different enough and have contradicted each other one way or another), movie, and TV Special. However it's also not needed since the franchise itself treats every version of Lupin as the exact same character going through the exact same event regardless of contradictions as seen in Part 5 where they outright show different versions of Lupin and Goemon's first ever duel. (Also unironically there are parts of the series that can give Lupin acausality so it's not even impossible from that point of view lol). Each version of Lupin doesn't warrant a different profile due to there not being a big enough difference between them as they all are similar in many ways. Hell even in a VS sense the Koikeverse is in a similar ballpark with characters surviving point buildings exploding and Hawk shaking a massive cruise ship (there is no shot Hawk's feat to shake this entire cruise ship to the point of people thinking explosions were happening is street level)

If we separate each version of Lupin, we'd have well over 50 versions despite there not being any real differences between them. It has always been a smarter and safer bet just to soft-composite the franchise since there is no real beginnings or ends to it, as everything is considered the exact same cast with little to no variations on the versions for them.

TLDR: The franchise doesn't make any real differences with it's media, the mainline series accepts the alternative medias as part of the series despite contradictions and trying to make or argue separate profiles for them would only lead into a very large mess which goes against the very core of the franchise since it doesn't treat anything differently from the other.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I think Yael's bionic eye ability would be more like Clairvoyance (Visual Linking) rather than Enhanced Senses

Made it a limited version of Clairvoyance since he can only do it to cameras

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Easy really, as I mentioned before the part 5 episodes make reference to it, directly showing the time they fought in Episode 0 and treating it as a real memory. Episode 0 is confirmed canon in it and while it's strongly implied he made everything the hell up it's also strongly implied that it was all true in the end.

Then, just treat it as a simple retcon. It’s simple. Since it also references Part 1 episodes, that’s an easy fix.

Lupin III parts 1 and 3 are different series with no connection to each other by paper. The only thing that connects them is the point that they are mainline series but again the same can be said for the Koikeverse due to it being considered the same type of movies as Cagliostro and Mamo. Also again Mamo exists which is a connection as well as the fact that it's takes the inspirations from the same version of characters that everything else takes inspiration of. Being different series and different continuities are completely separate meanings and the reason why the Koichiverse is a series is due to the fact its a series of movies that connect to each other. So no, that's not your answer.

Lupin III Parts 1 and 3 are lumped together because 3 is a continuation of 1 by it’s very definition. It is a part of the main anime, so it can be considered canon to it. Koike speaks in the context that he does not believe that the different series are related in the same continuity, the same way that he speaks of Lupin IIIrd and Lupin III. This is very different from the narrative you’re trying to push.

Because they are all made by and approved by the creator company TMS and it's related companies, there is no grounds to separate them except for the impression that the series is only comprised of the mainline parts and nothing more. Everything everywhere about this series has been made and worked on by different people with both mainline series, side series, movies, and TV Specials never having any real need for canon due to them all following their own rules. Like I said abstract existent and nonexistent physiology, the canon only exists at the moment and time that you look at it because if you look anywhere else it will become non-canon. The main series doesn't try and stick to past events so trying to apply it to it's official side materials which completely outclass it in terms of size. which amount to 50 different things (some not being that viable such as the few live actions or crossovers) doesn't make much sense if there's no good reason to.

That’s a very long way to say “we should ignore the rules because a series is long and contradicts itself sometimes”.

Allow me to take from our wiki's section on canon

"The generally agreed-upon definition is that the work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canonical, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise. Notably, if a work is referred to by the author/publisher as "canon-adjacent" or otherwise given an endorsement of canonicity that contains some form of asterisk (mostly canon, etc) in the absence of more specific information it should be assumed that these works are not usable given our inability to determine what aspects of the work are not fully canon. A few other exceptions are also possible and should be noted on the verse page."

"The primary canon is the source material first released (with few possible exceptions), with the other author works being secondary canon."

Lupin does not apply to this type of canon, as Monkey Punch has never touched the series past the manga and we don't use it. The grand bulk of it is TMS and everything we use and will use will likely be connected to them.

No, the grand bulk of what you’re saying can be applied to the main anime series which is connected via parts (1,2,3,4,5,6). That should be our basis point for primary canon.

Now lets look at Alternative Canon

"However, problem can arise from this: If one were to allow all alternate and/or non-canon versions of said characters, we would eventually be crowded with dozens of alternate profiles for the same characters. As such, certain limitations must be placed:"

"1) Certain franchises feature several characters that are considered as equally valid "official" versions of the character. These types of profiles can generally be created without any problems."

This is the closest one that can be applicable, however it runs the very real issue of having to separate every single part of the franchise from each individual mainline part (each one if different enough and have contradicted each other one way or another), movie, and TV Special. However it's also not needed since the franchise itself treats every version of Lupin as the exact same character going through the exact same event regardless of contradictions as seen in Part 5 where they outright show different versions of Lupin and Goemon's first ever duel. (Also unironically there are parts of the series that can give Lupin acausality so it's not even impossible from that point of view lol). Each version of Lupin doesn't warrant a different profile due to there not being a big enough difference between them as they all are similar in many ways.

Wasn’t the whole discussion with the movies being that the director basically made a whole other version of Lupin without any of the experiences from past material? That kind of renders your “same character” argument moot. It just sounds like a way of getting around the rules and it’s far too lenient for my tastes.

Hell even in a VS sense the Koikeverse is in a similar ballpark with characters surviving point buildings exploding and Hawk shaking a massive cruise ship (there is no shot Hawk's feat to shake this entire cruise ship to the point of people thinking explosions were happening is street level)

Then calc it.

If we separate each version of Lupin, we'd have well over 50 versions despite there not being any real differences between them. It has always been a smarter and safer bet just to soft-composite the franchise since there is no real beginnings or ends to it, as everything is considered the exact same cast with little to no variations on the versions for them.

We wouldn’t. Even with the series being as long as it is, there’s still ways to lump certain movies together whether that be by canonicity, directors, etc. If you really want to figure this out then make a blog on the canon. It’s the same thing with Mickey Mouse and Looney Tunes. I had to fight to provide concrete evidence that they were all connected and not just standalone things, and for the longest time, we had to decomposite both of those series for less. Lupin does not deserve that pass.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Lupin Zero can be cleared up simply by saying that it is non-canon to the main anime which would not contradict anything.

Just realized I didn't address this point lol. Lupin Zero is considered canon as well as one episode shows the backstory on how Lupin earned his title which is a point brought up in part 5 where he had to fight Albert for it. And guess who pops up in the backstory episode to fight Lupin for his title

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Just realized I didn't address this point lol. Lupin Zero is considered canon as well as one episode shows the backstory on how Lupin earned his title which is a point brought up in part 5 where he had to fight Albert for it. And guess who pops up in the backstory episode to fight Lupin for his title

Then, just fix it like this:

Lupin Zero is definitively canon since it contains a character from Part 5.

Lupin Episode 0 is dubiously canon. It is clear that parts of the story like Lupin and Goemon’s duel and the treasure he obtained were true, but due to Lupin being an untrustworthy narrator and a large implication that he falsified much of it, we cannot say for sure.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Then, just treat it as a simple retcon. It’s simple. Since it also references Part 1 episodes, that’s an easy fix.

What? How is that a simple retcon, they literally show two different events side by side that cannot exist with each other. It's not an easy fix since they are both distinctly different events and are shown as such.

That’s a very long way to say “we should ignore the rules because a series is long and contradicts itself sometimes”.

No, it's a long way of saying "this series doesn't even try to follow a central canon and is primarily episodic in nature"

No, the grand bulk of what you’re saying can be applied to the main anime series which is connected via parts (1,2,3,4,5,6). That should be our basis point for primary canon.

The primary canon, which contradicts itself between each part, which also refers to the side material as official material, which also contradicts itself in the same sentence of it occurring. Hell there's nothing that says the TV series is 'primary canon' in of itself, that's just an assumption made because of it having parts to it. However the 'parts' are largely unconnected and created by completely different teams. The only thing that connects them is the fact that they are all TV series made by TMS and on extremely rare occasions they will reference something in the past, with the only off hand examples I can think of is Part 2's first episode and everything we are mentioning for Part 5. As far as TMS is concerned all Lupin media can be counted as primary material due to them all having equally valid things, with part 5 supporting that idea.

Wasn’t the whole discussion with the movies being that the director basically made a whole other version of Lupin without any of the experiences from past material? That kind of renders your “same character” argument moot. It just sounds like a way of getting around the rules and it’s far too lenient for my tastes.

The movies take place during/before the Part 1 era, them acting as a prequel to the franchise doesn't render the argument moot and the things they add are far too minor for it to warrant a change..

We wouldn’t. Even with the series being as long as it is, there’s still ways to lump certain movies together whether that be by canonicity, directors, etc. If you really want to figure this out then make a blog on the canon. It’s the same thing with Mickey Mouse and Looney Tunes. I had to fight to provide concrete evidence that they were all connected and not just standalone things, and for the longest time, we had to decomposite both of those series for less. Lupin does not deserve that pass.

Canonicity can't work because the series doesn't follow any, with it constantly ignoring it for various different stories and it deciding to just make everything canon.

Directors can't work because there are no consistent directors for Lupin, there are far too many people to account for that.

The only way to separate the Lupin franchise is to have TV Series, Movies, and TV Specials in different categories, however the Movies and TV Specials are barley different from the mainline with the TV Series even lumping them in as canon as seen for examples like Cagliostro and Pursue Harimao's Treasure!! with people and places from it directly showing up, one a movie and the other a TV Special. It's a unnecessary change to be made due to how little it alters things for the franchise and the franchise itself not running by such rules.

Lupin Episode 0 is dubiously canon. It is clear that parts of the story like Lupin and Goemon’s duel and the treasure he obtained were true, but due to Lupin being an untrustworthy narrator and a large implication that he falsified much of it, we cannot say for sure.

They directly show the scene of Lupin and Goemon fighting in the story, that makes it confirmed canon since it's literally a recording of those two fighting and it being considered a real event. The implications of the movie itself don't matter when the implication of the story being true has been confirmed

 

[DimeUhDozen]

What? How is that a simple retcon, they literally show two different events side by side that cannot exist with each other. It's not an easy fix since they are both distinctly different events and are shown as such.

That’s how retcons… work.

No, it's a long way of saying "this series doesn't even try to follow a central canon and is primarily episodic in nature"

It does, and more episodic series that are actual cartoons like SpongeBob have had to have direct statements from staff that it doesn’t follow any canon to have some of it’s feats accepted.

The primary canon, which contradicts itself between each part, which also refers to the side material as official material, which also contradicts itself in the same sentence of it occurring. Hell there's nothing that says the TV series is 'primary canon' in of itself, that's just an assumption made because of it having parts to it. However the 'parts' are largely unconnected and created by completely different teams. The only thing that connects them is the fact that they are all TV series made by TMS and on extremely rare occasions they will reference something in the past, with the only off hand examples I can think of is Part 2's first episode and everything we are mentioning for Part 5. As far as TMS is concerned all Lupin media can be counted as primary material due to them all having equally valid things, with part 5 supporting that idea.

The TV series is primary canon to itself, the same way other adaptations are. Loosely connected or not, they are all treated as a complete work.

The movies take place during/before the Part 1 era, them acting as a prequel to the franchise doesn't render the argument moot and the things they add are far too minor for it to warrant a change..

It does since it doesn’t reference anything but Mamo which MIGHT take place later on in this timeline. And even then, you’ve said directly that it doesn’t connect to anything otherwise.

Canonicity can't work because the series doesn't follow any, with it constantly ignoring it for various different stories and it deciding to just make everything canon.

Again, a tendency to retcon does not automatically mean “no canon”.

Directors can't work because there are no consistent directors for Lupin, there are far too many people to account for that.

The only way to separate the Lupin franchise is to have TV Series, Movies, and TV Specials in different categories, however the Movies and TV Specials are barley different from the mainline with the TV Series even lumping them in as canon as seen for examples like Cagliostro and Pursue Harimao's Treasure!! with people and places from it directly showing up, one a movie and the other a TV Special. It's a unnecessary change to be made due to how little it alters things for the franchise and the franchise itself not running by such rules.

Maybe not to the series, but to the site’s rules, yeah. It is. You could honestly just make profiles for the Lupins that are significant enough to warrant them or make the argument to lump those non-canon films into a single profile if you can. Otherwise, we’d have one overpowered character with no proof that he could use all of those abilities in combat consistently.

They directly show the scene of Lupin and Goemon fighting in the story, that makes it confirmed canon since it's literally a recording of those two fighting and it being considered a real event. The implications of the movie itself don't matter when the implication of the story being true has been confirmed

You did not even bother to try reading the explanation I provided that would work within the confines of the Part 5 narrative. That is disappointing.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

That’s how retcons… work.

Last I checked retcons don't contradict each other within actual in-universe seconds. It shows First Contact and Part 1 in the exact same scene

It does, and more episodic series that are actual cartoons like SpongeBob have had to have direct statements from staff that it doesn’t follow any canon to have some of it’s feats accepted.

Spongebob is one episodic show, Lupin is a franchise with 6 different TV shows and 50 different movies and TV Specials. That again is not a good equivalent.

The TV series is primary canon to itself, the same way other adaptations are. Loosely connected or not, they are all treated as a complete work.

No, not really. The TV series largely doesn't adapt anything from the manga and just makes it's own stuff, if you want to argue that then by the same classifications all of the movies and tv specials are also adaptions of it, loosely connected or not. The Lupin Franchise consists of all of these works combined and the TV Specials and Movies are loosely connected due to just existing under the TMS Lupin whole. Give evidence that suggests that the TV Series are inherently considered more canon than everything else in the franchise that has decades worth of material which the TV Series itself considers valid.

It does since it doesn’t reference anything but Mamo which MIGHT take place later on in this timeline. And even then, you’ve said directly that it doesn’t connect to anything otherwise.

Yes, however it adapts from it, loosely canon or not, it's part of a complete work.

Again, a tendency to retcon does not automatically mean “no canon”.

It is when they literally do this in the exact same breath and actively choose to have 2 separate versions of events exist right next to each other.

Maybe not to the series, but to the site’s rules, yeah. It is. You could honestly just make profiles for the Lupins that are significant enough to warrant them or make the argument to lump those non-canon films into a single profile if you can. Otherwise, we’d have one overpowered character with no proof that he could use all of those abilities in combat consistently.

Again, you are making the assumption that these films are non-canon. There is evidence to suggest and even outright show that these events are considered part of the entire series as a whole. Show proof that these things take place within their own continuity, because the owners and copyright holders of Lupin III who have created all of these things with them being considered part of the official work. You are applying logic from other franchises that don't apply to this.

You did not even bother to try reading the explanation I provided that would work within the confines of the Part 5 narrative. That is disappointing.

I did read that, however that is your head canon. As far as the media itself presents it both of them are considered 100% real events and even if your story held true that doesn't change a damn thing. The entire point of it is the fact that Goemon and Lupin cannot have had that duel due to the previous examples of each other, however both have occured.

TMS Lupin is just TMS Lupin, there's no point in trying to fragment him

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Fine, you win.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Fine, you win.

I did actually just think of an example where this is applicable lol

Toei Goku

Two profiles that follow characters through their company owned versions rather than their original author's version. Allowing them all materials within their related medias.

Only difference is we don't have a Monkey Punch original Lupin for........ obvious reasons

 

[DimeUhDozen]

I did actually just think of an example where this is applicable lol

Toei Goku

Two profiles that follow characters through their company owned versions rather than their original author's version. Allowing them all materials within their related medias.

Only difference is we don't have a Monkey Punch original Lupin for........ obvious reasons

yea

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Figured I'd give Hawk's new render a second try since if I'm being honest 99% of possible renders for him look bad. So I figured I'd mark it down to 3 possible options

Option 1: Rule of cool - Official artwork that I had to hunt down in order to find, wasn't that easy to get. Looks the coolest IMO but it's not a "full body render" (I think)

Option 2: Awkward Angle - Full image of him, but it's an awkward angle

Option 3: Cold AF pose - It's him from before the story, so it's not a fully accurate image despite it looking good

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Bumping this

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Bump yet again, if I get no comments on the Hawk image change I'll just swap it to 1 assuming it doesn't look trash

 

[Fireld]

Option 3 is my favorite

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Le bump

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Bump

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Bump IIIrd

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Bump

 

[Arcker123]

I agree with the OP

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Bump-a-bump

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Quirky one liner bump

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Bump D. Thread

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I bump thee

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I would also like to retract my statement on A Woman Called Fujiko Mine, that is, according to this, I do not believe it is connected to anything.

Yeah uh, looked into this a bit more and I at least find Koike to be at least a bit questionable source on WOG statements. Found some officially licensed anniversary materials that explicitly state that it's connected to the IIIrd stuff. (Also, the actual thing that he said in his interview was "I don't know, I think of them as separated" with it further explaining that it's meant to be a continuation but he made the movies with his vision in mind, meaning that isn't even a valid confirmation of them being separated)

Book also says it's part of a rebooted continuity that contradicts specifically Parts 1-3 (this is the 50th anniversary, so Parts 4-6 were out already and mentioned in here), but it's a bit weird on that stuff since it doesn't state this for other things like First Contact or Elusiveness of the Fog which also contradict Parts 1-3 (in fact, the book even states that Elusiveness of the Fog is a sequel to Mamo's original episode however that's just blatantly false), says things like how the modern Lupin unifies all previous aspects of the franchise including IIIrd stuff, and it's also from what would be considered a less reliable source since it's written by a big name from Discotek who are the guys responsible for bringing Lupin over to the west rather than actual original TMS stuff from Japan.

So yeah, even the most basic information in this franchise is just as contradictory as the series itself LOL. I personally would give more credit to Koike than the book since he acts as a closer representation for TMS rather than a American from DiscoTek. Another thing to note, while looking around the Modern Lupin parts for future revision stuff, I HEAVILY underestimated the amount of things they referenced in Part 5 which does include references to Woman Called Fujiko Mine. They legit just decided to composite every aspect of the characters in recent installments LOL

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Bump (Also yeah, looking into it further I trust this 50th anniversary book less and less LOL)

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Bump