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D&D: More Revisions (Deities)

I think it's

Lady of Pain: Either explaining her 2A key in more detail or bumping it to High 2A

Ao: Avatar 4-A. True form High 2A -> At least High 2A

Gods: Avatars Small Country (forget the tier number), High 6A, or 5B.


As of now we're trying to work out the Gods true form tier.
 
Okay.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Also in case anyone is wondering, each of the Nine Hells is fininite in 3e (but the plane itself is infinite).
Click to expand...
In 5e, the planes were retconned again to basically be as big as the ruler wants it to be.

"Distance is a virtually meaningless concept on the Outer Planes. The perceptible regions of the planes can seem quiet small, but they can also stretch on to what seems like infinity. Adevturers could take a guided tour of the Nine Hells in a single day, from the first layer to the ninth- if the powers of Hell desire it. Or it could take weeks for travelers to make a grueling trek across a single layer"- Dungeon Master's Guide for 5e page 58
 
@Qawsed, could you check Foggy's source and see if it would be consistent? If that's true, it may explain the constanrtly changing nature of the size of the plains. It would also be a very convenient excuse for D&D being so damn inconsistent.

Which means that, technically, we can consider any feat to be on the tiers you've said if they happened during those editions. Additionally, we could automatically consider any planar leader (deity, so long as they control their plane) Low 2-C, as they would be the deciding factor of whether or not their plane is infinite. If we do accept this as the reason the layers appear to vary in size, this would go into affect regardless of edition.
 
Gonna give some TL;DR feats from that Dawn War blog (which appears to be 4e, but the lore carried over to 5e):

Feats

  • Obyriths (some of which are now demonic lords, if I'm not mistaken, including Demogorgan) collectively destroyed their previous "universe", and, long story short, they moved into this one, and created the Astral Sea, which contains most of the other planes in our multiverse. I'm not sure if this would be Low 2-C or 2-A, considering the Astral Sea. Still. They also created the Elemental Chaos.
  • After them, the gods came along (though it is implied Ao was the creator of the Realmspace in general, which contained the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos and so on). The gods and the primordials began creating their realms, though the primordials just created and destroyed them in an endless cycle.
  • Tharzidun is credited with creating the Abyss, after pulling out the Shard of Evil. Now, if the premise of what Foggysniper said is true, I believe this would be a 2-A feat regardless of edition, as the Abyss could be infinite on each layer should he please it to be.
  • The Gods are implied heavily to be able to erase existences of primordials here: "The gods shackled their foes through various means; by forcing them from this reality altogether, their names erased from history's annals, or using the world itself to confine the tempestuous monsters." That, or BFR from reality, either or.
  • The Lattice of Heaven was destroyed by a collective group, but upon doing so, even realms so far as the Far Realm (which is essentially outside this multiverse) were harmed. The Lattice linked to all realms. I believe this would be 2-A, at least, as it leads to and damaged all realms of the multiverse. The Astral Sea was permanently damaged and altered, and many gods died. This casued repercussions across many realms, including the Prime Material, in which stars fell into the planet, destroying continents (stars likely means comets and the like, but still).
  • Kord descended from the Heavens and battled a Slaad Lord. Upon nearing defeat in his avatar form (which I believe is implied by "descending from the heavens"), he leapt back into the heavens, leaving behind a boiling storm, which never dispersed. This was in the Elemental Chaos, where nothing is permanent. Unsure how powerful that'd be, but that's a helluva storm.
  • Io (Asgorath)'s death was so powerful, it caused a rift throughout the Astral Sea. To save it from destruction, another god had to sacrifice themselves.
  • Bahamut, the son of Io that rose from his corpse (and superior to Tiamat), defeated a goddess that doubled as the embodiment of an outer plane. Not sure how big an outer plane is or if it functions like the Prime Material, which is infinite and has infinite universes, as previously covered. So take this one as you will.
 
> If that's true, it may explain the constanrtly changing nature of the size of the plains.

He's right about his source but that doesn't explain why the planes change. There's very clear reasons why they're altered in each edition. 2e -> 3e was because of Vecna, 3e -> 4e was due to the destruction of the weave and 4e -> 5e was due to the Second Sundering. Also as mentioned the owners of the realm cannot stretch the planes to an infinite degree considering unwanted mortals can still traverse a layer, it just takes a lot longer.

As for 5e itself I don't remember a lot about it besides that there's an infinite number of different Material Universes. But I don't know if the planar layers of the Outer Planes are infinite.

> I'm not sure if this would be Low 2-C or 2-A, considering the Astral Sea.

In 4e the Astral Sea is an infinite plane that has certain finite realms and the Elemental Chaos is the same

> Which means that, technically, we can consider any feat to be on the tiers you've said if they happened during those editions

I disagree pretty heavily with this for the reasons mentioned in the first paragraph.

> I believe this would be a 2-A feat regardless of edition

Not in 4e. In 5e it might be, but 4e the Abyss is just explicitly not infinite. Although I don't know how the multiverse was structed in those times so it could be 2A. Its just hard to use considering the various contexts

> The Lattice of Heaven was destroyed by a collective group, but upon doing so, even realms so far as the Far Realm (which is essentially outside this multiverse) were harmed.

It didn't harm the Far Realm. They just used it as an oppertunity to breach the multiverse

> The Lattice linked to all realms. I believe this would be 2-A, at least, as it leads to and damaged all realms of the multiverse. The Astral Sea was permanently damaged and altered, and many gods died.

Linking all realms isn't a 2A feat, but it damaged an infinite plane so it should be good either way.

> To save it from destruction

That event wouldn't have destroyed the Astral plane, just open up a rift for others to invade which is why it needed to be closed

> defeated a goddess that doubled as the embodiment of an outer plane.

I think that was more due to hax/special effects than anything going by the source . But even if it was all due to his power, Lakal was finite considering her realm broke into thousands of comets and her worshipers believed they could bring her back if they assembled all of her body parts.
 
Thousands of comets and countless particles, meaning it could likely be infinite. And yes, but followers aren;t the greatest of sources. We've established that already.

I disagree with the Lakal thing, and I'm shifty on the rest of your reasoning.

As for the lore of the Dawn War, if it carried over to the most recent edition, I believe we should use 5e standards. If something explicitly happened in 4e, we should use those standards. But it exists in 5e, which would change the context considerably.

Also, the creation of the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos would likely be a 2-B feat, then, even if those planes can contain infinite universes, at the time they just had "many" or whatever.

Considering this lore does carry over to 5e, the Abyss thing would be 2-A, no?
 
> Thousands of comets and countless particles, meaning it could likely be infinite.

Thousands is a far cry from infinite. Same with countless particles. While the followers are an iffy source, I don't think there's enough to say Lakal was spacially infinite

> But it exists in 5e, which would change the context considerably.

Sure. Well to be clear I agree it happened in the past of every edition. Just that the various cosmic changes could've made them less impressive than otherwise.

> Considering this lore does carry over to 5e, the Abyss thing would be 2-A, no?

Well I think we have to agree on a standard tier for the multiverses. Does creating a infinite plane count as a 2-C, 2-B, or 2-A feat? From my view (unless I'm misunderstanding tiers) the multiverses go

2e = High 2A or 2A. Infinite Outer Plane layers, each infinite in size like a Multiverse

3e/5e = Either 2B or 2A. The Abyss has infinite layers but not every layer is infinite. However there's possibly infinite parallel multiverses

4e = 2-C

So creating the Abyss would be something like "At least 2B, possibly 2A".
 
In my view, 2-A is the most consistent rating for the D&D multiverse. 4e lowballs it to hell compared to the others (making it a vast lowball), and High 2-A is also a bit of an outlier.

So 2-A should be what we behold the multiverse to be. It has many, many, many showings of infinite universes. That said, creating the Abyss is also potentially an infinite universal thing. So I think that feat would be At least 2-B, likely 2-A, yes.

As for feats carrying over, if we can establish that the most consistent version of the multiverse does indeed have showings of infinite universes (which I think we've explained to death, at this point), then most feats of the gods would support their current ratings if not justify an upgrade (namely, from Low 2-C to 2-C for beings like Orcus, if we agree that Graz'zt controlled multiple layers of the Abyss, which contained his infinite palace and stuff).

Also. Obyrinths. If they created the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos, that would be a 2-B feat, to my knowledge. They didn't contain their infinite universes at the time, as the gods and primordials weren't even around. However, I think this would also justify 2-C for the demon lords, considering Obyrinths were on their level. This was done as a collective of an unknown amount Obyrinths, who created the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos, which at the time contained an unknown amount of universes within them and were large enough to contain other areas, which were spatially infinite and contained further universes within THEM. So... what do you think?
 
So if I've gotten this right

Lady of Pain:Either Multiverse level+ or High Multiverse level+ (Repaired the 2nd Edition Multiverse which contains an infinite number of infinitely large realms. Her true form is strong enough to instantly destroy the multiverse )

Ao: (Avatar) Multi-Solar level (His robe contains millions of stars and moons ) | At least High Multiverse level+ (Same reason as listed)

Vecna: (Demigod) At least Small City level (Mountain Split/Glacier Feat) likely Multi-Continent level (Should be comparable or superior to the Phaethon who heats the core of worlds) | (Lesser God) Multi-Universial (Something about controling his realm/infinite plane) | (Greater God) Either Multiverse level+ or High Multiverse level+ (Stopped the Lady of Pain's attempted to remove him from Sigil, but it took the majority of his power)

Demon Lords: (Not in their realm) At least Small City level (Glacier/Mountain feat. Drizzt needed the combined power of a Illithid Colony to defeat Demogorgon) | (In their realm) Universal level/Universal level+ (Controls their realm, defeated the Obyrinths who created the Abyss which is infinite in size)

Other Gods (Gruumish/Corellon Larethian): (Avatar) At least Multi-Continent level (Phaethon scaling) likely Planet/Star level (Can fight the Leviathan who can crush worlds) | At least Multi-Universial (Controls their infinite realms) possibly Multiverse level+ (As Greater Gods they may be comparable to Vecna)

Asgorath: (Primordial) Moon level/Planet level (Throws moon) | At least Multiverse level+ (Created the Multiverse) possibly higher (One myth says that he created the Lady of Pain)
 
Haven't verified that last Asgorath thing tho so it may not be true
 
Here are the feats I've calc'd for lesser primordials and stuff.

As for your ratings... I'm in agreement except for two points.

1. Gods should not have a possibly 4-C, since it is unclear what forms those feats occurred in. They should easily scale to the Leviathan, as it was explicitly stated it could be fought by Godly Avatars, and is 5-B. So 5-B is a certain.

2. I believe demon lords should scale to the High 6-A Phaethon (think I spelled it right) thing, as that is a mere mortal monster. The Small City thing is about as casual as a feat can be (a scream). Even the lesser primordials have High 6-A/6-B showings, just have to get the calcs I linked above looked at. Basically, they'd be comparable to Vecna's lesser god form.

3. Asgorath's feat should be considered Moon level, even if it is likely FAR higher, just because we don't know enough context to calc it reliably. So Moon level. Although he is likely comparable to other lesser primordials, even in his avatar state, so "Likely 5-B" would come from the Leviathan.

Anyone have any other issues with the proposed changes? I'm okay with them, personally.
 
It seems fine to me, unless the new 5e Eberron book that came out would change anything (which I doubt it does)
 
Alright, cool. Thanks for putting so much time into the revisions, these pages have needed some love for a loooooong time.
 
Something to possibly support the Universal+ to higher rating is that it was stated that the Demogorgon killed a primordial when said primordial tried to invade the Demogorgon's realm and shook the Abyss and the Astral Sea. While this is in 4e (making the feat far less impressive than it normally would be), shaking the Astral Sea is still a huge accomplishment.

"Storralk, failing to recognize Demogorgon's rise to power, foolishly challenged the demon lord to a battle. The shock waves of that cataclysmic battle were felt in the depths of the Abyss and across the Astral Sea. Demogorgon tore his enemy to pieces." - Monster Manual 2 4e.
 
Okay. Hopefully all the calcs we are waiting for get either accepted/denied so we know how to handle these revisions we've discussed. Somebody should also probably compile a blog for the accepted revisions, as a TL;DR for all the changes, ranging from speed to AP and all that.

Just to be clear, we're all in agreement that the godly avatars scale in the very least to the Hypersonic+/Supersonic+ things we calc'd ages ago, purely for being laughably above the characters that performed them (so far above those characters it would be an insult to compare them to ants).
 
So what are the TLDR conclusions so far?
 
So far?

Avatars
All gods scale to the speed feats depicted in my blog, should they be accepted, simply due to a lack of speed feats of their own. This would mean, depending on what gets accepted, at least Supersonic+, possibly Hypersonic+.

Lesser deities, demigods, archdevils, some primordials, and demon lords (save for special cases like Asmodeus) scale to the feats of the Abomination, ALSO depicted in my other blog, which came out to High 6-A (supported by two Elder Evils also maintaining High 6-A feats).

Greater deities and beings on the tier of Asmodeus (leader of the Nine Hells) scales to being able to battle the Leviathan, who, with its awakening, would be able to destroy the world. So 5-B.

Ao stands in a tier of his own, at 4-A. The only time his avatar ever appeared, his cloak contained millions of stars and celestial bodies within it.

Gods in Godly Form
Lesser deities and demon lords and the like are seemingly looking at an upgrade from Low 2-C to 2-C. To my knowledge, this affects only our Orcus page.

Greater deities remain where they are, at 2-A. Pages like Gruumsh and Correllon (or however you spell it).

Top tier deities such as Asgorath and Lady of Pai would get a "Possibly High Multiverse level+" added to their tiers, as Lady of Pain has such showings and Asgorath is stated to, in myth, have created her.

Ao would be "At least High 2-A, possibly Low 1-C" for being infinitely above beings like Asgorath.

And finally, Lumi would be "At least Low 1-C, possibly 1-C" based on the aforementioned upgrades.
 
Lady of Pain isn't really a "Possibly High 2A" consider her feat is very straight forward. Asgorth however is a possibility considering only one unsupported random myth puts him on that level.


As for Greater Deities I'd but them at "2-C, possibly 2A/High 2A" since while Vecna was a Greater Deity there's a chance that he was just far stronger then them. Better scaling may be saying they're comparable to Mystra or Cyric.
 
Was Vecna implied at all to be far stronger than them?
 
Additionally. Orcus should receive a tier specifically for his abilities with The Last Word, which was able to kill even greater deities. Granted, it killed him, after a time, but still.

I am personally against the idea that Vecna was superior to them since Greater Deity is literally a term for the strength of the deity. They should scale and be considered 2-A.
 
@Mr. Bambu

What are the reasons for the tiers, and have all the calculations been accepted?
 
The big thing is that Vecna preformed a specialized ritual to make him a Greater God, but more importantly he was constantly increasing in power since he had just ascended (the module constantly says Vecna's power is waxing or increasing). So there's a chance that he would've been stronger than Gruumish/The Elf since their power would've long since been stabilized.

However that same problem doesn't apply to Mystra or Cyric killing Mystra.
 
@Ant I have asked Darkanine to look through them. And which tiers do you refer to?

And yes, his power was increasing to that of a Greater Deity. He wasn't ascending to something like Ao or anything, merely taking a seat to a higher position of power. It should scale.
 
He became a Greater Deity as soon as he absorbed Iuz. After that he was constantly increasing in strength anyways. I just feel it's simpler to just scale them to Mystra.
 
@Mr. Bambu

High 6-A, 2-C, High 2-A, "At least Low 1-C, possibly 1-C".
 
Tier justifications:

Lesser Avatars, Demigods, so on: High 6-A via an Abomination being stated to be able to heat the core of a planet with its presence. This needs accepted, though, so the revision will have to wait to see if it IS accepted. If not, there are two other High 6-A feats to follow it (planetary storm and a planetary glacier).

Greater Avatars, High-End Primordials, so on: 5-B via the Leviathan, a Primordial, being stated to be able to destroy the planet with its awakening.

Ao: Cloak contained millions of stars within it. 4-A.

Lesser Deities, Demonic Lords, Archdevils, Some Primordials: 2-C for certain lesser deities maintaining complete control over infinite planar spaces (including Graz'zt's infinite layers of the Abyss). Obyrinths creating the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos may well be a 2-B feat, however, as each one of those contained an unknown amount of universes within them.

Greater Deities and Asmodeus, as well as various other Primordials: 2-A, based on Vecna's aforementioned feat of being able to somewhat resist the Lady of Pain, who has some feats on this level. Asgorath was implied to have created the infinite multiverse, and is implied to also be inferior to the Lady of Pain despite also being implied to have created her. Mystra caused the Spellplague, which hit every realm somehow. These realms are infinite, due to the layer of the Abyss that is infinite and contains an infinite amount of portals to other layers.

Ao: Just so laughably superior to Lady of Pain, who has High 2-A showings (talk to Qasdef for that), he's a level of transcendence above her. Ao can strip any god, including LoP, of their powers with a thought, and instantly ascend another to their place, should it please him.

Lumi: Again, he's a level of transcendence above Ao, with Ao as his servant. Self explanatory, but still.
 
I am in disagreement. Even lowballing Vecna's feat would be 2-A. Considering the vast amount of supporting feats, lowballing them into 2-C would just be hugely unfair.

Lolth, a lesser deity, managed to fold her layers of the Abyss to her image in 2e. That is something you brought up. Now, to my knowledge, this was either while she was a lesser deity, or on the way to becoming a greater deity. In 2e, you ALSO stated that layers of the Abyss were each comparable to the Prime Material Plane, which had infinite universes at the time.

How is this in any way not 2-A?

Also, we should take a look at the infamous hut of Bobba Yogga, since, IIRC, it was spatially infinite in size, was constantly changing, and kept copies of its past forms within itself, each past form maintaining that same infinite size. For how long Bobba Yogga's been around, I'd say that's at least 2-B, but Qawsed, do you have the source book for that, and does it give context as to how many copies it has stored in it? I'd be of more help if I had the books, I know, so my apologies.
 
@Antvasima justifications with some edits

So if I've gotten this right
Lady of Pain:Either Multiverse level+ or High Multiverse level+ (Repaired the 2nd Edition Multiverse which contains an infinite number of infinitely large realms. Her true form is strong enough to instantly destroy the multiverse )

Ao: (Avatar) Multi-Solar level (His robe contains millions of stars and moons ) | At least High Multiverse level+ (Same reason as listed in his profile)

Vecna: (Demigod) At least Small City level (Mountain Split/Glacier Feat) likely Multi-Continent level (Should be comparable or superior to the Phaethon who heats the core of worlds) | (Lesser God) Multi-Universial (Something about controling his realm/infinite plane) | (Greater God) Either Multiverse level+ or High Multiverse level+ (Stopped the Lady of Pain's attempted to remove him from Sigil, but it took the majority of his power)

Demon Lords: (Not in their realm) At least Small City level (Glacier/Mountain feat. Drizzt needed the combined power of a Illithid Colony to defeat Demogorgon). In Orcus's case it'd be (Should be comparable to Demogorgon) | (In their realm) Universal level/Universal level+ (Controls their realm, defeated the Obyrinths who created the Abyss which is infinite in size, Demogorgon shook an infinite plane when fighting a Primordial)

Other Gods (Gruumish/Corellon Larethian): (Avatar) At least Multi-Continent level (Phaethon scaling) likely Planet/Star level (Can fight the Leviathan who can crush worlds) | At least Multi-Universial (Controls their infinite realms. Should be superior to Lolth who moved her infinite realm into another plane ) possibly Multiverse level+ (As Greater Gods they may be comparable to Vecna and should be comparable to Mystra who embodies the multiversal weave)

Asgorath: (Primordial) Moon level (Tossed an ice moo ) | (God) Multiverse Level+ (Created the Infinite Multiverse in some myths. Should be comparable to other GReater Gods such as Mystra) possibly higher (according to one myth he created The Lady of Pai)

> Lolth, a lesser deity

Intermediate but the point stands. The main reason I list them as 2C is that I don't know if altering a single spacial infinite layer is a 2A thing or a 2C thing. I hoped that Ant could chime in on this exactly.

> In 2e, you ALSO stated that layers of the Abyss were each comparable to the Prime Material Plane

I did yes. In 2e Greater Gods are 2A for the most part. The issue is that we're using their 3e or 5e versions since they're the most consistent so their 2A feats aren't as automatic.

> Also, we should take a look at the infamous hut of Bobba Yogga

No idea what that is. Mind expanding?
 
@Qawsed

LoP: An infinite number of infinitely large realms is just 2-A.

Vecna: Accepted calculations for the lesser ratings would be preferable. Controlling an infinite universe is just High 3-A or Low 2-C, depending on if spacetime is involved.
 
@Bambu

Okay. I read your explanations, and they seem to make sense.
 
Thanks for the tier clarifications. So the Greater Gods are "At least Low 2C, possibly/likely 2A". Vecna has a 2A scaling feat of his own. As for the 3A/Low 2C thing I believe they control/create every aspect of their realms including time.


As for the rest the calc group has to accept it first.
 
Altering a singular infinite spatial universe is Low 2-C. Altering multiple spatial infinite spatial universe is 2-C, until that number of universes gets to or exceeds 1001 universes, at which point it is considered 2-B. If the number of universes is countably infinite (or if a character is stated to be infinite in power compared to another Tier 2 character), then they are 2-A by default. High 2-A would hinge on these universes being affected on a 5th dimensional level.
 
Demonic lords and such would be 2-C as opposed to Low 2-C, as several control multiple universes at once (including the aforementioned Lolth and Graz'zt), which, depending on when you look at them, are spatially infinite. They can mold these infinite universes to their will, generally forging them in their image. The exact size of each layer has altered sometimes (though a few have persistently remained infinite, including the aforementioned Baphomet's Maze and the Grand Abyss, which has portals leading to other layers of the Abyss).
 
Also, Ant, as one final side note, I'd like to state that D&D has been around since 1974 and has a writing history not dissimilar to Marvel Comics or DC. It has many, many, many versions, including those outside of what we've considered for today (Spelljammer and the like). As such, it would be best for this wiki to consider a "most consistent" basis for the lore implications. As of right now, (if I'm understanding things correctly), the multiverse is infinite in its universes, and each plane is spatially infinite. From what I can tell, this is true for all versions save for the Spellplague version (4e), which changed things.

Under my advice, I'd say count planes as universes for this sake. Some are likely not infinite, granted, but for the most part they do appear to be so- that is the most consistent manner of the D&D planes.
 
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