D&D Cosmology Blog and possible tier upgrades

[Qawsedf234]

So I've finally finished the D&D blog. If people are okay with it, it can be added to the hub page.

But this is multi-layered CRT. So basically there's two section

Old Ones going from High 1-B to Low 1-A

So this is the description for High 1-B and Low 1-A

High 1-B | High Hyperverse level: Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures whose size is equivalent to a countably infinite number of qualitative sizes above a universal model, usually represented in fiction by endless hierarchies of layers of existence, each succeeding one completely trivializing the previous into insignificance, or more generally a space with countably infinite dimensions.

Low 1-A | Low Outerverse level: Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures and expanses of uncountably infinite dimensions, or which have a size roughly analogous to them, such as uncountably infinite sets of hierarchical layers or planes of existence, most specifically ones whose amount of layers is comparable to the set of all real numbers, and are thus equated to the first uncountably infinite cardinal, ℵ1, for simplicity's sake.

Alternatively, this tier can also be assigned to characters who transcend High 1-B structures when no further context regarding the nature of such transcendence is given.

Now the reason for this proposed upgrade is that creating the High 1-B multiverse wasn't seen as all the impressive to the Old Ones with the following quotes considered

One success could have been chance, but the second arrival proved that the great experiment known as the Multiverse would serve its purpose

And no future volume will provide details on the Old Ones, for their powers transcend the framework of any mere game

Basically the assumption being that they're far beyond the High 1-B multiverse. With them being considered beyond the framework of the game, the multiverse itself is considered a mere experiment to them that they were willing to move on from if it failed, and they being above the multiverse by some unknown degree.

The Lady of Pain and the Serpent upscaling

Currently both have a "possibly higher" rating for their second key, since their true forms are to much for the multiverse to actually handle and it basically collapses instantly. The idea would be to change the possibly higher rating to a "possibly High 1-B" rating. Since super-space could very well include everything above the Dimensional Vortex. But its ultimately unknown if they can effect it or not.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Old Ones being Low 1-A based on the second definition of Low 1-A is fine. Luckily D&D doesn't go too hard into all the quasi-intellectual shit that's required for the former. High 1-B structure was just a casual creation for them and they are so far removed from it that they can't be put into the same context as its existence, open and close case.

I still don't believe Superspace refers to Mystara, nor do I believe that, without explicit statements, they would be above things like the Dimensional Vortex. However I understand what you're getting at and believe you to be arguably the least biased individual on this site (even if we disagree on a good number of *****). So, personally no, but I'm not gonna stonewall and drag my feet if everybody else feels the latter is acceptable.

 

[Qawsedf234]

However I understand what you're getting at and believe you to be arguably the least biased individual on this site (even if we disagree on a good number of *****). So, personally no, but I'm not gonna stonewall and drag my feet if everybody else feels the latter is acceptable.

The way I'm wording it is also sorta weird. Would something like "possibly at most High 1-B" or "at most High 1-B" work better?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If this does get accepted, "possibly at most High 1-B" or "at most High 1-B" works, yes.

 

[InfiniteDay]

I would say "at most High 1-B". The rest is fine.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I agree with bambu's proposal, and I think "At most High 1-B" sounds the best.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

this is Qawsed's proposals

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

I swear that I saw an old CRT which would upgrade Vecna to low 1-C, what happened to it?
Anyways, I agree

 

[Dragonstitch]

I also agree with this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I swear that I saw an old CRT which would upgrade Vecna to low 1-C, what happened to it?

Basically that idea was to give Vecna a key for him ascending to an Overgod. But it was a bit controversial because canonically the outcome was not guaranteed to happen like that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So everyone good with the suggested upgrades and Blog then?

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Ovy7 @YuriAkuto @Ionliosite @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422

Are the provided definitions here sufficient to warrant an upgrade of these characters?

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I trust Qawsedf's and Bambu's senses of judgement regarding this franchise.

(Well, with the exception that Bambu sometimes exaggerates D&D intelligence levels a bit. )

 

[First_Witch]

Oh my god, a cosmology blog that isn't one giant wall of text. Is it truly possible? Give me a couple hours, i gotta read through the blog first.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[Ovy7]

I have literally 0 knowledge of DnD (even tho I want to play the game since ages), but from the stuff in the OP it seems fine. Tho to my knowledge, transcending the framework on which something so vast/big as a High 1-B structure is defined upon is 1-A, but I guess Low 1-A could go as a safe end...

 

[QuasiYuri]

I like how you have a whole thing about how they theorize and aren't sure of their stuff.
Then you have the "they are correct."

Very good blog, tho I have a little issue with Luminous Being (see below).

Low 1-A looks fine based on the second quote.

"Possibly at most" is weirdly worded and doesn't seem very good. A mere possibly should be enough.

For Luminous Being, I don't really understand the "possibly High 1-A"? I mean, the 2nd and 3rd instances are just a higher layer of 1-A, with nothing hinting to more as far as I see.

I'm very new to DnD tho, so I am not very knowledgeable on anything beyond the Gods like chad Maglubiyet.

 

[First_Witch]

Read through the blog, my applause to the author again, proofing that size dosn't matter when it comes to succulent knowledge.

Upgrading the Old Ones to Low 1-A i can support, as long as game reffers explicitly to the Multiverse.

Cant comment on scaling LoP to the entire multiverse though, i feel that needs actual DnD experts to determine wether or not that is consistent though. I can see the logic behind it for what my opinion is worth.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I like how you have a whole thing about how they theorize and aren't sure of their stuff.
Then you have the "they are correct."

Very good blog, tho I have a little issue with Luminous Being (see below).

Low 1-A looks fine based on the second quote.

"Possibly at most" is weirdly worded and doesn't seem very good. A mere possibly should be enough.

For Luminous Being, I don't really understand the "possibly High 1-A"? I mean, the 2nd and 3rd instances are just a higher layer of 1-A, with nothing hinting to more as far as I see.

I'm very new to DnD tho, so I am not very knowledgeable on anything beyond the Gods like chad Maglubiyet.

High 1-A is a potentiality based solely on the implication that they are the Dungeon Master that can arbitrarily add as many layers of 1-A structures below them (by Forgotten Realms canon, there are 2 such layers that creatures of the multiverse are aware of).

Also yes Maglubiyet is S tier.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

For the record, I trust Qawsedf's and Bambu's senses of judgement regarding this franchise.

(Well, with the exception that Bambu sometimes exaggerates D&D intelligence levels a bit. )

This emoji is one of the Seven Miseries that hail the apocalypse, I believe. 's quite a sight.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Mr. Bambu is aware of the concept of Tier 0 entities, and he is a DM, therefore Luminous Being should be Tier 0 as they can add whatever they want into the game

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Mr. Bambu is aware of the concept of Tier 0 entities, and he is a DM, therefore Luminous Being should be Tier 0 as they can add whatever they want into the game

begone from this place

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

A

BFRed to Sigil

 

[KingPin0422]

Low 1-A for the Old Ones seems reasonable based on "their powers transcend the framework of any mere game." I suppose that "possibly High 1-B" works as well.

 

[Antvasima]

What others have accepted here seems fine to apply, and the blog can be linked to in the verse page, but I also think that the Luminous Being "only" seems to be a higher degree of 1-A.

Is the explanation blog good enough to add to the Featured section of our wiki navigation bar?

 

[Antvasima]

This emoji is one of the Seven Miseries that hail the apocalypse, I believe. 's quite a sight.

Heh.

Well, you have legitimately somewhat misunderstood how our intelligence ratings work in the past. I still find D&D pages that I have to correct sometimes.

My apologies if I cause offence.

 

[KingPin0422]

Regarding the Luminous Being, I'm sure that either Bambu or Qaw can explain the reason for "potentially High 1-A", although I don't know how to feel about the usage of "potentially" seeing as that's not described on any of our explanation pages, despite that there are allegedly some profiles that use it or have used it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it seems to use the same principle as The Writer of DC Comics, but we intend to downgrade him as well.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Heh.

Well, you have legitimately somewhat misunderstood how our intelligence ratings work in the past. I still find D&D pages that I have to correct sometimes.

My apologies if I cause offence.

we had this talk in the past, the current ratings were agreed upon by you back when we were fixing the ratings put in place by Zach and co.

not really the place for such chatter, but still.

no offense is taken, just not often we get to see good humor from ye. It's a rarity and a pleasant one at that.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Regarding the Luminous Being, I'm sure that either Bambu or Qaw can explain the reason for "potentially High 1-A", although I don't know how to feel about the usage of "potentially" seeing as that's not described on any of our explanation pages, despite that there are allegedly some profiles that use it or have used it.

The "potentially" thing was actually an explicit instruction from Ultima/Aeyu back when they were deliberating over what to tier LB at. I think "possibly" is a better word since, from what they tell me, it means quite literally the same thing in their eyes.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The High 1-A rating, as Bambu mentioned, based on some WoG about the Luminous Being being a stand in for the DM and how the DM is freely able to alter anything that they see fit which to my understanding would make them High 1-A; as they're conceptually beyond the 1-A system as the 1-A system is to everything else. It is sketchy, which is why even back then we were never confident about a solid rating just a possibility of the tier.

Upgrading the Old Ones to Low 1-A i can support, as long as game reffers explicitly to the Multiverse.

Yeah it does. The full context form the source is in the blog, but its rather wordy and dense due to being a lore dump for RP'ing as the highest level of being in the multiverse. But essentially the Old Ones created the multiverse as an experiment to see if they can produce beings capable of ascending to their level to increase their numbers. The Old Ones going by the text were seemingly fine with just ditching the multiverse if it didn't work and moving on to something else, so they're above it to a greater degree than High 1-B usually entails.

Tho to my knowledge, transcending the framework on which something so vast/big as a High 1-B structure is defined upon is 1-A, but I guess Low 1-A could go as a safe end...

The main reason I suggest it is that there's no clear cut evidence of transcendence. Now it would make sense, as they likely exist in the Far Realm in some capacity, but unlike with certain monsters who have explicit statements about being transcendent over reality, the Old Ones have nothing as clear cut.

Basically 1-A would make sense imo, but the justifiable evidence is only Low 1-A which is why I'm suggesting it. But if 1-A works it would make Lumi's High 1-A more justifiable since they're incapable of comprehending his existence.

Cant comment on scaling LoP to the entire multiverse though, i feel that needs actual DnD experts to determine wether or not that is consistent though. I can see the logic behind it for what my opinion is worth.

Basically its theoretically possible. Later on in the same book its mentioned that she effected superspace and other higher dimensional structures. The issue is, like above, there's also no clear evidence that she did infact effect those things. Which is why I thought something like "possibly At Most High 1-B" was warranted for that explanation. She might be able to effect more, and the maximum she would effect would be High 1-B. Though just "At most High 1-B" may make more sense in context to our system.

 

[Antvasima]

we had this talk in the past, the current ratings were agreed upon by you back when we were fixing the ratings put in place by Zach and co.

not really the place for such chatter, but still.

Well, it is the "At least Extraordinary Genius" ratings that recurrently seem exaggerated, given that our requirements for Supergenius are extremely high.

no offense is taken, just not often we get to see good humor from ye. It's a rarity and a pleasant one at that.

Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

The High 1-A rating, as Bambu mentioned, based on some WoG about the Luminous Being being a stand in for the DM and how the DM is freely able to alter anything that they see fit which to my understanding would make them High 1-A; as they're conceptually beyond the 1-A system as the 1-A system is to everything else. It is sketchy, which is why even back then we were never confident about a solid rating just a possibility of the tier.

Well, I am uneasy to give such high tiers based on speculation without any proof, much like in the DC Comics case. Perhaps we could change the tier to "Possibly High 1-A" at least?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well, I am uneasy to give such high tiers based on speculation without any proof, much like in the DC Comics case. Perhaps we could change the tier to "Possibly High 1-A" at least?

I agree, though technically the proof is just WoG that supports in-universe implications. I don't think Qaw is gunning for outright High 1-A, if he is then I don't agree with that, he's just explaining why it's there.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Understood. I am still very uneasy with this sort of reality-fiction interaction scaling though. It seems far too much about "real people are always stronger than fiction and can add any degrees of ascension to it if they wish" reasoning, and playing god with words and pictures is also not what our wiki should be about.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't think Qaw is gunning for outright High 1-A

The only way I'd support a solid High 1-A rating is with a clearer statement or if the Old Ones become solidly 1-A. Even then it still wouldn't be a hard High 1-A.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So if everyone's okay with it now I'll make the following changes

• Link the blog into the Hub page
• Update Rad to Low 1-A
• Change LoP and the Serpent's higher rating to High 1-B

 

[QuasiYuri]

Possibly High 1-A seems better, although I think you need more to have even this distinction, like a statement really hinting toward High 1-A or something.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Yuri. I dislike this type of speculative featless guesswork scaling for such high tiers.

Anyway, what Qawsedf234 suggested can probably be applied now, yes.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Possibly High 1-A seems better, although I think you need more to have even this distinction, like a statement really hinting toward High 1-A or something.

new name

Could get Ultima I suppose. To be completely transparent here, nobody of the D&D supporters made the High 1-A rating. It came from deliberations between Ultima and Aeyu- and granted, been some time, they may have lost track of it, but it came from them.