2. Light arrows game mechanic is only present in the 3Ds version of the game, which it means it doesn't necessarily retcon the lore behind the fight, since at the end of the day you still need the giant mask to defeat twinmold according to game guides. It could just be a mechanic implementation.
Here, literally:
"To have a fighting chance you must supersize yourself by wearing the giant Mask", so this would imply that light arrows alone wouldn't be enough to finish off this enemy, they wouldn't give Link a chance to defeat them for good.
But let's even grant this for good as well, there are still major inconsistencies on why the light arrows wouldn't scale to twinmolds' durability:
- the arrows are used to shot their eyes, which is a major weakness, both fictional and real life the eyes don't have the sturdiness and durability of the body, and second of all the arrows got an anti-evil hax property, so that they can damage the enemy isn't necessarily due to AP, since they got no known resistance to that hax. Plus, again, you must use the giant mask if we go by lore which would mean you cannot defeat them for good with arrows, and even if gameplay allows you to, that's not much different from defeating Ganon with a wood stick in BOTW, which is also the same justification we have for the same game for not scaling base Link to Majora just because you can choice to not wield fierce deity mask and beat the boss.
This is apparently how according to staff and knowledge members in the previous thead the golden sword could hurt Ganon, so that they can stun, damage twinmold by hitting the eyes and having an anti-evil property wouldn't be enough for AP scaling.
Once again, objectively straight up wrong.
- "Light arrows game mechanic is only present in the 3DS version"
No,
it's not.
In the N64 version, Twinmold can
already be damaged by arrows and is one of the two
major ways to defeat it (Literally; need I remind you Tatl exists? She herself points out arrows to the tail and head as a intended way to kill them).
They even, ironically at that, have special coded weakness to certain arrows (one's weak to fire and takes 6, one's ice and takes 6, otherwise they take 2 from the inverse, light does medium to both). So this absurd idea that Light Arrows damaging Twinmold is some brand-new 3DS-only mechanic is not only false, it's dishonest, and I KNOW you know because we've
already had this talk.
What the 3DS remake actually does however, is far, far worse for your argument:
it makes the Light Arrow / arrow-based phase
mandatory before Link even gets the Giant's Mask.
That's not some lil tiny optional mechanic hidden in a corner my dude. That's the actual canon boss progression in the remake. Link fights blue Twinmold first, forced to use arrows, exposes its true weak point, defeats it, and
only then obtains the Giant's Mask for the red Twinmold phase.
There is no "maybe" or other option, you
MUST kill it with arrows.
So this framing:
- "you still need the Giant's Mask to defeat Twinmold"
isn't only just wrong, but it's outright shot by the scripted boss sequence itself.
In Majora's Mask 3D, you literally do not have the Giant's Mask for the first half of the Twinmold fight. The game forces you to defeat one of the Twinmolds without it, and the only way you can is via arrows. The Giant's Mask is obtained after that.
INSIDE THE BOSS FIGHT ITSELF.
Meaning your argument requires ignoring how the remake fight actually works.
And no, hiding behind an old guide quote doesn't fix that.
First problem you got there: the "fighting chance" / "supersize yourself" wording is Nintendo Power guide material, not the game itself. If you want that to overrule the actual remake's boss structure, then first prove the guide is accepted as canon/usable for this purpose.
We already went through this with the bibliography/source hierarchy issue last thread, why you pulled this again despite literally being handed the canon bibliography is beyond me.
Is the guide on here? No? Then you need to prove why it's usable first. You don't get to pull random Nintendo Power guide wording when convenient as if it overturns what actually happens in the fight, game, narrative, and several other guides because let's not act like other guides don't shoot this down either. Especially when the actual game and whole remake mechanics contradict the point you're trying to make.
Second problem: even if I humor the guide, "to have a fighting chance" is
not the same as "impossible without it". That's merely recommendation. It tells the player the intended/easiest way to fight the boss in that version. It doesn't erase the fact that arrows damage Twinmold as one of the two intended methods with baked in special code for it even, and it definitely does
not erase the fact that the remake
forces the first Twinmold kill before the Giant's Mask is obtained. So if there was any vagueness before, there isn't anymore post-remake and thus there's not an argument to be had.
Third problem: you're
selectively using guide material while ignoring the rest of the context which has now become a reoccurrence with your arguments. If a guide says Giant's Mask is recommended/important and also acknowledges the other option as valid, you can't just rip out only the part that sounds vaguely helpful and pretend the rest doesn't exist, which is something your arguments keep on doing repeatedly, your own source backfires on you if you actually opt not to cherry pick lines that don't even say what you're pushing it as saying.
Like it or not, 3DS remake is a remake, a canon one, the
new canon in fact, and it changed the boss fight, that's how it is now, end of. There is zero debate to be had regarding its canonicity and sequences.
The eyeball weak points aren't "fluff" either, assuming you'd want to argue that. The first phase is built around them. The blue Twinmold's exposed eye is the required weakness. That's true. The Giant's Mask isn't even available until after that enemy is beaten.
So unfortunately no, this can't be dismissed as "just a mechanic implementation" while also trying to treat the old Giant's Mask method as lore-defining (which simply makes your entire case look like post-hoc double standards, which is baffling when you keep claiming that's what you're arguing against?).
It isn't even a mechanic implementation, it's part of the story, that's how Link canonically kills one, gets the Mask, kills the other, and he needs that Mask to give Majora for Fierce Deity (which is an amalgamation of the masks so not really optional here), which he canonically needs and is stated to have used to kill him.
Either the game mechanics matter enough for this boss fight to be discussed, or they do not, upon which:
- If they do matter, the 3DS fight directly proves Link can defeat one Twinmold with arrow-based attacks before receiving the Giant's Mask in a scripted sequence.
- If they don't matter, then stop using old guide gameplay advice as if it settles lore while conveniently ignoring the game itself, and ironically, like 5+ other guides.
Now for the rest of the weak-point argument:
Yes, the eyes are weak points. That does not automatically mean "no AP" however, and simply playing through the fight would tell you this.
A weak point is still part of the enemy's body and still has to be damaged. The fact that a boss has a vulnerable spot doesn't mean every attack that damages it becomes pure hax, context and method is key per usual. Zelda bosses use weak points constantly. That has never meant "the weapon has zero AP and the damage is meaningless". And the worst part of this?
The weak point in question is what you hit with the huge AP things, as in, the weak point
is what's scaling, the rest of it is even tougher.
Like, you realize you have to bash it out of the giant eyeballs with Giant Mask Link, right? If the Mask is 6-A or whatever we currently have it at, the eyes are too. Thinking on it, I wouldn't even call them weak points, newer lore states they're just symbols of Majora's power, they're basically pustules that contain the very reason why they're strong.
If your claim is "Light Arrows should not automatically scale to Twinmold's full body durability just because they hit eyes", fine, that's at least a real discussion, at least till you remember Link is forced to attack them with the very crux of the scaling like 5 times so the weak points scale and are just a tad more vulnerable while scaling to the same general ballpark.
But that isn't the same as saying "Light Arrows can't scale at all".
Especially because in the original version, arrows damage the head/tail weak points too so either way you go about it.
Stick to N64? Your entire weak point argument isn't even true, you just attack where the exoskeleton isn't (head+tail), and both can still take hits from the Giant's Mask.
Stick to 3D? Weak points still scale and Link is required to attack them directly with both arrows and Giant, and Light Arrows. So again, this is not just "3DS eye mechanic lol".
The anti-evil/hax point is also being abused, poorly might I add.
Yes, Light Arrows have holy/anti-evil properties.
No, that does not mean every bit of damage they do is automatically pure durability negation with zero AP.
We already went over this exact distinction in the Golden Sword thread. A sacred weapon can have both:
- Actual power.
- Special effectiveness against evil.
- Stun/suppression properties hax slop.
- Weakness interaction.
Those are
not mutually exclusive.
The whole reason the Golden Sword comparison fails is because ALttP Ganon is
not killed by the Golden Sword and can
never be killed by it in fact. The Golden Sword helps stun/open/make him vulnerable, which is stated, and the Silver Arrows are the actual kill condition that is stated no less than like 5 times in game to be absolutely required and scripted.
Twinmold is very much not the same context.
Light Arrows aren't just "opening Twinmold up so a different required item can do the real damage" as is the Master Sword to Ganon. In the remake, arrow-based attacks are part of the actual
forced first-phase kill. In the original, Light Arrows also deal direct damage to Twinmold's weak points, double even.
By simply comparing this to Golden Sword vs Ganon, all you've really done is just tell everyone what your real problem is here.
Golden Sword:
- Does not kill Ganon.
- Cannot replace Silver Arrows and is stated as much.
- Functions as part of a special Ganon vulnerability setup that seals his movement.
- Still does not prove full-Triforce AP.
- Literally two whole games and then some rebuking your entire CRT explicitly.
Light Arrows vs Twinmold:
- Directly damage Twinmold and can kill it.
- Stated in game to be one of the main ways to kill it and acknowledged by Tatl.
- In 3DS are required before the Giant's Mask is even obtained.
- In N64 have actual listed unique damage mechanics and coding interactions to each specific type of arrow.
- Are not being used merely to set up a separate mandatory finisher while doing no damage of its own.
Completely different contexts lad, this shouldn't even be gestured at.
The BotW stick comparison is also a bit insulting dude, if you're going to argue, at least argue something you actually believe.
Regardless, BotW is an open-ended durability/chip-damage system where almost any weapon can technically damage bosses because the game is built around sandbox combat. Majora's Mask 3D's Twinmold fight is
not that. It's a structured boss fight where the first Twinmold phase is explicitly designed around sliming the mf with the funny new Light Arrows before the Giant's Mask reward appears and you kill the second one with it (and in 3D it's even worse because now Light Arrows do more than Fire).
That's not comparable to "lol wooden stick beats Ganon".
This shouldn't even need explaining either, nor should the fact this whole point is disingenuous. We
know how Link killed Ganon, because we're told outright, the game is built around it, and we're explained what actually happened in the sequel game and lore books atop that. The funny stick is gameplay freedom, how Link actually beat him is The Master Sword.
And the Majora/Fierce Deity comparison doesn't help you either. Beating Majora without Fierce Deity is optional gameplay because Fierce Deity
itself is an optional reward, one that just like Ganon, is explained and hammered in extensively with a slew of extra lore, information, and details that makes continuing to frame it this way after such was already shown makes the argument look less like a mistake and more like outright selective framing.
The Twinmold 3DS sequence ain't comparable even then still: the remake
directly requires the first Twinmold to be beaten before the Giant's Mask becomes available.
That is the intended sequence.
That is
not a player choosing some silly optional challenge route.
So the actual state of the argument is, once again:
- Light Arrows damaging Twinmold is not 3DS-only.
- The 3DS remake makes the first Twinmold kill happen before the Giant's Mask.
- The old "fighting chance" guide quote isn't even game text, not enough to override the remake, and does not even prove impossibility anyway, and is contradicted by lines in the original game itself saying Arrow are, in fact, a viable option.
- Weak point damage may limit full-body durability scaling, but it don't erase AP especially when the weak points end up barely downscaling anyway.
- Holy/anti-evil properties do not automatically mean pure hax with zero power, which you know so stop arguing that nonsense.
- Golden Sword vs Ganon is not the same context because the Golden Sword is not the kill method and Silver Arrows remain mandatory and the game itself enforces this.
- AlbW exists, like ong stop complaining about AlttP.
- The BotW stick comparison is not analogous to a structured required boss phase and is explained excessively so in its own games anyhow.
Unfortunate as it might be, this doesn't debunk Light Arrows. At an absolute generous best, you argued that Light Arrows hitting Twinmold's weak points should be handled carefully and not blindly treated as full-body durability scaling, which while fair, a meager five minutes with the game would reveal why that's a faulty point either way.
But even that is a much narrower point and one that doesn't lead to any of what you're trying to push.
- It does not prove the Light Arrow interaction is fake, false, or didn't happen.
- It does not prove the 3DS remake can be ignored.
- It does not prove the Giant's Mask is required for both Twinmolds in the remake.
- It does not prove Light Arrow damage is pure hax.
- It does not make Golden Sword scale to full-Triforce Ganon.
Once again, this is not consistency.
It's you taking the worst and messiest possible interpretation of one chain, trying to ignore whole games and a literal mountain of information, statements, and evidence on the contrary, then trying to use something that doesn't even say what you think it does, to force another unrelated chain.
Stop pretending an old guide recommendation and a weak-point argument override the remake literally forcing Link to kill one Twinmold before the Giant's Mask is even obtained.
