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Pretty sure PMMM’s witch pocket dimensions are examples of them given they’re for the most part tier 7. Data should be capable of explaining this further given he’s the PMMM guy
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Creation Feats
- Thread starter Mariogoods
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Hoborg is an example of a character who is baseline 8-A via creating a neighborhood called The Neverhood out of nothing in an instant. It doesn't scale to physical stats since it's his magic Crown that does not amp physical stats that gives him said powers. Though, I mentioned I having been looking over the extended lore; his crown has the same powers as Arven's who created planets and a galaxy apparently. And I heard of some Manga characters who are baseline 8-B for creating a City Block sized pocket reality out of nothing.
Maria from Mother is also at least Mountain level based on a Pocket Reality creation feat in which said pocket dimension has multiple mountains. Ryu Hayabusa also has an At least Mountain level key via nuking a similar sized pocket reality with his Ninpo.
Maria from Mother is also at least Mountain level based on a Pocket Reality creation feat in which said pocket dimension has multiple mountains. Ryu Hayabusa also has an At least Mountain level key via nuking a similar sized pocket reality with his Ninpo.
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Well, creating a mountain or land area of a specific size, for example.
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@Theglassman12 what needs explaining?
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We're discussing creation feats and judging them on a case to case basis, I mentioned PMMM's witch pocket dimensions as an example since someone asked what characters have this feat, considering you're the PMMM guy I assume you can further explain the context behind their pocket dimensions and how it scales to the witch's powers.
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KK
PMMM's Witches create pocket universes (Called Barriers in-verse) when they're born; the universes themselves are created by their mental state before they became witches.
They scale to them because they have the ability to warp these realities (Shown by Gertrud by changing her barrier between the anime and Magia Record as well as Oktavia who changed her own barrier between episodes), move their barriers (Again, Oktavia and Gertrud showed this, but it was also shown by most witches), and even destroy their barriers (Box Wood's destruction feat is actually higher than the pocket reality creation feat, so its more of a lowball for witches). They also count as stabilization feats and are pretty consistent with the other feats (Generally tier 7 or higher, performed at least once by every main magical girl except Sayaka).
PMMM's Witches create pocket universes (Called Barriers in-verse) when they're born; the universes themselves are created by their mental state before they became witches.
They scale to them because they have the ability to warp these realities (Shown by Gertrud by changing her barrier between the anime and Magia Record as well as Oktavia who changed her own barrier between episodes), move their barriers (Again, Oktavia and Gertrud showed this, but it was also shown by most witches), and even destroy their barriers (Box Wood's destruction feat is actually higher than the pocket reality creation feat, so its more of a lowball for witches). They also count as stabilization feats and are pretty consistent with the other feats (Generally tier 7 or higher, performed at least once by every main magical girl except Sayaka).
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Would DontTalk, Antoniofer, or any calc group members be willing to help out with this? Our mountain and island sizes explanation page would likely be useful.
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As I said, there's no way of calculating creating non-celestial and land bodies; honestly, a character doesn't do anything by creating a neighborhood and similar stuff, now if they create something big and then use it offensively (like throwing it) that at least can be calculated. Naturally, creating large environments are bounded by enviromental destruction rules (creating a forest that somehow yield 7-C doens't mean that it going to yield the same when a character manipulate trees to attack its enemies).
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Sorry. I didn't see it mentioned here but I would just want to quickly mention that a lot of people forget that with creation feats, characters also create empty space (especially for pocket dimensions and celestial objects) and that empty space is not actually nothing and contains energy.
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@DontTalkDT
I would appreciate if you could also skim through the following thread for useful information to include in the Creation Feats page. Thanks in advance for any help:
I would appreciate if you could also skim through the following thread for useful information to include in the Creation Feats page. Thanks in advance for any help:
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How would the proposed revision apply to Tier 2 creation feats?
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Tier 2 creation feats are typically even more blatant than creation feats less than Tier 2.
Anyway, DT is likely very busy but I think his proposal is accepted, but was asked to skim through the thread. Specifically requested from this quote.
Anyway, DT is likely very busy but I think his proposal is accepted, but was asked to skim through the thread. Specifically requested from this quote.
^^
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Do you mean that Tier 2 Creation does or doesn't scale to the character's attacks of the same energy source?
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Same energy source= Creation feats scales to AP and Striking Strength in full
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If it uses the same energy source that can be harness equally into their physical strikes, then yes.
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@DarkDragonMedeus
And if a being casually makes universes, their their moderate or higher effort energy attacks should scale too?
And if a being casually makes universes, their their moderate or higher effort energy attacks should scale too?
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Being casual about it or not doesn't really matter.
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I guess moving the stuff now put on the pocket reality manipulation page to the new page would be all that needs to be done? Well, maybe removing some stuff that would already be mentioned on the new page for the sake of better style. If so that's easy work and I can do that when I create a page.
To finish this up I would like to ask what people think the agreement here is, so that I know what I am tasked with doing.
Is more agreement of the size/volume scale or against it? If there is agreement for it, I will start making a list of suggestions for the values one could take, so that we can discuss those.
If we would rather go case-by-case then I could finish up the page right away, assuming we have agreement on using creation feats on less than celestial scale now. If not I would have to change the page, but that would also be quick.
I think generally we at least decided to not abandon creation feats completely and to continue using the celestial body standards we have already by now.
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This has taken so long, and there have been so many tasks to handle in-between, that I no longer remember the contents of these two threads well. My apologies.
I would very much appreciate if somebody else in our staff could help DontTalkDT by summarising the discussions so far. Thanks in advance for any help.
I would very much appreciate if somebody else in our staff could help DontTalkDT by summarising the discussions so far. Thanks in advance for any help.
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Reading through this thread my impression is that there is no general agreement between everyone. I could at most count votes or what I think would be what people wish to vote for.
I guess I will for now just implement my first version, without the size scale, if nobody stops me. That more or less represents the status quo. We can then make changes to that, as soon as it's clear what changes to the current practices we agree to make.
I guess I will for now just implement my first version, without the size scale, if nobody stops me. That more or less represents the status quo. We can then make changes to that, as soon as it's clear what changes to the current practices we agree to make.
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Okay. Thank you very much for helping out.
Would you be willing to check through the following thread as well please?
Would you be willing to check through the following thread as well please?
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@DontTalkDT by "without the size scale" do you mean scale the feats to being baseline if we don't have a proper size of the dimension?
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Pretty sure we already have a page for that regarding mountains and islands.
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There was the suggestion to agree on certain volumes, so that we know exactly which volume needs to be created in order to be a certain tier.
Like, currently we rank a character creating a decently large mountain as mountain level. That would put a number on it, so that one can easily and objectively decide when a mountain is sufficiently large to be mountain level.
So when I say "without the size scale" I mean without including a table with numbers for the tiers. So just going case-by-case as we have been.
Do we? We have a page with fragmentation values and such, but not quite agreed on for creation use as far as I am aware.
I think all results from that thread have been summarized on the pocket reality manipulation page and I will move them over to the creation feats page once I create it.
Creation feats is probably fine.
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Ah, must’ve misremembered the name, could’ve sworn it was a creation feat page on how strong they’d be.
anyways I’m ok with the case by case basis for creation feats below moon level.
anyways I’m ok with the case by case basis for creation feats below moon level.
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I have made the page based on my prior draft and what was on the pocket reality page.
I will ask in the other thread whether anything should be added to it.
The page needs an image. Does anyone have a good idea?
I will ask in the other thread whether anything should be added to it.
The page needs an image. Does anyone have a good idea?
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The only character I can think of that could work for an image is Mundus from DMC, given he has an onscreen showing of making a pocket dimension in the final fight.
either him or the witches from PMMM since their main form of scaling is through their pocket dimensions.
either him or the witches from PMMM since their main form of scaling is through their pocket dimensions.
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@Armorchompy @Firestorm808 @DarkDragonMedeus @KLOL506 @Antoniofer @SomebodyData @Damage3245 @Elizhaa @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @KieranH10 @Ugarik @Sera_EX @AKM sama @Migue79 @YuriAkuto @The_Wright_Way @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @ProfessorKukui4Life @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Schnee_One @Mr._Bambu @Dino_Ranger_Black
Your further input would be appreciated here.
Your further input would be appreciated here.
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I think that the page DontTalk has made is pretty good and summarizes everything effectively.
However I do think that for lower tiers, I think we should have some form of guideline, because, for example; a country can vary in size hugely, and some "countries" are smaller than other "cities" in extreme cases, I imagine they would overlap in a lot of cases, so without guidelines similar feats might be made different tiers through different interpretations.
Also, this is more of a question than feedback.
How would it be treated if a character uses an ability to create an object and also shows to be capable of attacking. But without the implication of any shared power or such, they just fight, and at one point create, say, a star. Would they be Star level or would we need more evidence?
However I do think that for lower tiers, I think we should have some form of guideline, because, for example; a country can vary in size hugely, and some "countries" are smaller than other "cities" in extreme cases, I imagine they would overlap in a lot of cases, so without guidelines similar feats might be made different tiers through different interpretations.
Also, this is more of a question than feedback.
How would it be treated if a character uses an ability to create an object and also shows to be capable of attacking. But without the implication of any shared power or such, they just fight, and at one point create, say, a star. Would they be Star level or would we need more evidence?
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There should be evidence. In my opinion you'd not only need to prove their powers scale to dura and such, but that the creation scales to their powers.
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I suppose I will have to sit down and make a list of suggestions for various volumes, seeing as that's a problem frequently brought up. I will try to think something up, although if anyone has suggestions I would collect those.
The Creation page states:
I think that passage should answer that issue?
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I'm also happy to help with looking for some values in this regard.
I suppose. The use of mana in the example made me relate it to magic related stuff specifically or there having to be a power source such as mana. I assume it's basically "if someone can create an object with a portion of their power, they should be able to destroy it with similar power"
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