Cowboys and Thugs: Arthur Morgan vs Carl Johnson

[LordGinSama]

Both are at 9-B, Carl has access to the mini gun and Arthur has access to all his explosives.


Winner via death of the opponent.


Speed is equalized and battle takes place in Saint Denis.


Arthur: 0


CJ: 0


Incon:0

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Well, in regards to stealth, both have sneaked in and around heavily guarded areas surrounded with guards/law enforcement, but Arthur has Eagle Eye which would allow him to find CJ easier. Both can tank numerous gunfire, but Arthur's precision and accuracy seems to be better, along wkth explosive rounds and poisonous weapons giving him more chances at victory. And with Dead Eye and time being slowed down Arthur would he able to throw his best at CJ first, and even if CJ did land, Arthur would be taking less damage in Dead Eye. He should comfortably win this with multiple precise explosive rounds or poisonous hits to CJ's vitals. Cj has martial arts, but hed have to catch arthur first, and Arthur also has some experience in boxing and could out wrestle a man bigger than him, and he has better LS, so he could just throw CJ off him. Voting Arthur

 

[LordGinSama]

Arthur also has experience with some of CJ's better weaponry such as the mini gun. Those were essentially around during the time of Rdr2 in the form of the Maxim Gun so Arthur most likely couldn't be taken by surprise from it.

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Ahhh my opinion remains the same as last time. I think CJ still wins for the same reasons

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Ahhh my opinion remains the same as last time. I think CJ still wins for the same reasons

You're going to have to state those reasons again, and that won't work, cause those reasons don't exist anymore as he was downgraded, and Arthur's been upgraded in hax, so you're gonna have to give new ones.

The original argument was infinite stamina, which isn't on his profile, and his high durability, to which his durability has been downgraded by a significant bit. Stealth won't work anymore since Arthur's stealth is comparable if not greater, and even if you say they are comparable, Arthur's Eagle Eye pushes it to his advantage. Martial Arts would mean he'd have to get to Arthur first, which won't happen before Arthur slows down time and blasts him with any of his ammunition especially explosive rounds, and Arthur can still just out grapple him, has his own hand to hand combat skills, and can out wrestle guys physically stronger and bigger than him (and I'm pretty sure Arthur is physically bigger than CJ here). Testing it earlier today (against a bear), Arthur can dead eye and shoot the target 14 times, and CJ is not surviving 14 explosive rounds to the heart and brain, or poisonous weaponry

 

[Robo432343]

idk man...it looks like CJ doesn't have a wincon anymore
arthur kinda stomps his ass

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

The original argument was infinite stamina, which isn't on his profile,

"By the completing the burglar missions, CJ is able to sprint without tiring"

Maybe "infinite" is a stretch, but it's still a better showing than Arthur. Sure Arthur's got his vials, but if this fight goes on long enough he could eventually run out.

and his high durability, to which his durability has been downgraded by a significant bit

His 9-A durability was removed before that match, as well his 9-A AP (Just now seeing this, Gin apparently just did a CRT on this, which actually got a couple of things wrong IMO.)

I'll probably make a CRT on it myself when I got the time, but I'll address some things:

The point was made that CJ can die to high falls (so can Arthur so I don't even know why it matters) yet he showed videos of CJ with standard health.

He's indeed capable of surviving a high falls with max health


I also vividly remember playing the game with max health and shooting the ground with an RPG and Carl surviving about 3 or more, especially with Armor. But I'll have to look for a video of this.

Martial Arts would mean he'd have to get to Arthur first, which won't happen before Arthur slows down time and blasts him with any of his ammunition especially explosive rounds,

CJ has the superior stealth capabilities to get Arthur. The dude snuck through Area 51 by himself and stole a jetpack. Arthur's got his Analytical Prediction and enhanced senses, yeah, but he's still been caught off guard plenty of times

The O'driscoll ambush in chapter 3, in the fields at braithewaite Manor in chapter 3 during that mission where you look for trelawny, Edmund Lowry Jr etc.

Arthur can still just out grapple him, has his own hand to hand combat skills, and can out wrestle guys physically stronger and bigger than him (and I'm pretty sure Arthur is physically bigger than CJ here).

Arthur is definitely stronger than CJ, but bigger and stronger mean jackshit when it comes to skill. Tommy had no marital arts skills. CJ can defeat people skilled in boxing/muay thai/Taekwondo/Kung Fu whateverwhothefuckcares, while having no martial arts training at all, eventually mastering those styles for himself.

Arthur while being a skilled H2H fighter, is cooked here




AnywI've been pretty busy IRL lately which is why I took forever to reply so it'll probably be a while again.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

I'll reply to everything later since it's nearly 2am for me, but for the stamina point real quick:

Completely irrelevant. Arthur was with Dutch for 3 days in a snow storm on the run, leading alongside Dutch and still taking part in shootouts, and can sprint a long time with full fortified stamina. CJs thing definitely isn't infinite, and it isn't so much greater if granted that, that it'll sway into his favor. Arthur will keep up with him.

 

[LordGinSama]

Maybe "infinite" is a stretch, but it's still a better showing than Arthur. Sure Arthur's got his vials, but if this fight goes on long enough he could eventually run out.

It's a massive ******* stretch and should be axed from the profiles as well. I assume you're the one responsible for the blatant San Andreas wank.

CJ can defeat people skilled in boxing/muay thai/Taekwondo/Kung Fu.

First of all this is literally fake news. CJ never learned Muay Thai or Taekwondo, he does boxing which Arthur also does, kick boxing and Kung-Fu. With these not being all too visually impressive, furthermore CJ didn't master them instantly. He needed multiple classes to actually learn them which is something anyone can do. He never learnt them instantly or anything like that.

The point was made that CJ can die to high falls (so can Arthur so I don't even know why it matters) yet he showed videos of CJ with standard health.

It's consistency. 9 times out of 10 those things will in fact kill CJ, him having max health is pretty irrelevant since his health bar is irrelevant when it comes to his durability. Health and durability are two different things, secondly that fall quite literally dropped his health to near zero there so again this isn't valid.

CJ has the superior stealth capabilities to get Arthur. The dude snuck through Area 51 by himself and stole a jetpack. Arthur's got his Analytical Prediction and enhanced senses, yeah, but he's still been caught off guard plenty of times.

First of all you can't scale GTA's Area 51 to our own. Secondly sneaking into a secured military base isn't nearly as impressive as breaking into military forts at the midst of night to silently kill every Solider in there without being detected.

The O'driscoll ambush in chapter 3, in the fields at braithewaite Manor in chapter 3 during that mission where you look for trelawny, Edmund Lowry Jr etc.

You could quite literally say the same thing about CJ and with him it happens way more.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Gin has said pretty much what I wanted to say.

I just want to add that the "area 51" stuff just looks to be a joke version of its real life counterpart, in no way is it as highly protected as it is in real life, so using that to argue his stealth is not that good. Also addding on, unless there's some mission achievement or whatever, I have not found a single playthrough or video on youtube where CJ has gone around the whole place undetected. Whereas for Arthur, it is entirely possible (and quite easy) to stealth kill and finish some missions with stealth alone, in morning or night, out in the open or closed areas, throughout bushes/trees or hidden camps, etc. Whenever Arthur is caught off guard, it is usually due to him facing mulitple trained outlaws or law in general, here he is fighting one dude. Not that this is too important anyway, SBA would mean this fight probably doesn't start in stealth anyway, and if CJ were to run and try stealth Arthur can just follow him with Eagle Eye

Falling off buildings as Gin pointed out doesnt mean much here. He can still be killed by gunshots, which Arthur obviously has plenty of. If you truly believe CJ is 9-A in durability then make a calc for that or whatever, it doesnt mean much here. I dont see anything to show CJ surviving 14 explosive rounds to his vitals, and even if he miraciously could, Arthur could just Dead Eye and poison him right after, and none of his shots are going to miss with his precision.

 

[LordGinSama]

Ahhh my opinion remains the same as last time. I think CJ still wins for the same reasons

This will not be counted btw.

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Completely irrelevant. Arthur was with Dutch for 3 days in a snow storm on the run, leading alongside Dutch and still taking part in shootouts, and can sprint a long time with full fortified stamina.

They got into shootouts after escaping into the snowy mountains after the blackwater massacre? That part I don't remember...

They fought that first group of O'driscolls, and then camped at Colter.

Arthur is capable of tiring out in H2H after a while.

It's a massive ******* stretch and should be axed from the profiles as well. I assume you're the one responsible for the blatant San Andreas wank

Your assumptions are wrong. The "wank" is literally a mechanic of the game, present in all the 3D era games, along with maxing out health and becoming immune to fire. That's been on all the pages long before I signed up here, don't shoot me for it

First of all this is literally fake news. CJ never learned Muay Thai or Taekwondo, he does boxing which Arthur also does, kick boxing and Kung-Fu. With these not being all too visually impressive, furthermore CJ didn't master them instantly. He needed multiple classes to actually learn them which is something anyone can do. He never learnt them instantly or anything like that.

"Fake news".......ok

Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Whatthefuckever who cares, you get what I'm trying to say right? He still has marital arts skills and has defeated other martial artists.

And I really don't care about this little topic as it's pretty minor, but muay thai and kickboxing are very similar, so It doesn't really matter.

And the style in San fierro was never really called by name, so I understand why some people may have gotten them mixed up.

But when the hell has Arthur ever officially trained in boxing lol when is that stated? He's a skilled brawler and melee fighter for sure, but he has no formal training nor has he fought anyone with it.


There doesn't seem to be much boxing in his fighting style. And even if he did you do realize that 19th century boxing is a lot different from modern boxing techniques?

And I don't get the "CJ didn't instantly master them"

That's supposed to take it away from CJ?

Are you insinuating that Arthur would instantly master Kung fu at a glance? When he's never mimicked H2H and only Eagle eye and how to use a bow?

It's consistency. 9 times out of 10 those things will in fact kill CJ, him having max health is pretty irrelevant since his health bar is irrelevant when it comes to his durability. Health and durability are two different things, secondly that fall quite literally dropped his health to near zero there so again this isn't valid

No it's not. It's not about "9 times out of 10".
It's about the profile assuming CJ is at max stats. It literally says this on his profile. If you have a problem with this you should with Arthur as well considering how he has similar mechanics in his own game. Arthurs health increases the more you do physically challenging things, the amount of damage you can withstand improves as well.

For example Arthur can withstand a point blank dynamite stick, a second one will drop his health near zero. Does this invalidate this feat? No.

And Arthur dies from way lesser falls than the video I showed.

It honestly seems like you cherrypicked videos with default stats just to sell the CRT

First of all you can't scale GTA's Area 51 to our own. Secondly sneaking into a secured military base isn't nearly as impressive as breaking into military forts at the midst of night to silently kill every Solider in there without being detected.

Why not, we already scale GTA and RDR to the real world. But ok.

And yeah, it kinda is. The military in the 90s is obviously better trained and technologically advanced than in the 1890s.

CJ did that on his own, Arthur had Charles with him.

And they both were detected at the end tbf.

You could quite literally say the same thing about CJ and with him it happens way more

Of course. Still dosent take away the fact that I think his stealth feats are better than Arthurs.

I just want to add that the "area 51" stuff just looks to be a joke version of its real life counterpart, in no way is it as highly protected as it is in real life, so using that to argue his stealth is not that good

So because it's a parody, the feat is dismissed? That's the whole nature of GTA. You may as well dismiss the whole series. And even RDR as it also contains satire.

I have not found a single playthrough or video on youtube where CJ has gone around the whole place undetected.

You came to steal a $500 million dollar jetpack, you weren't supposed to go entirely undetected lol


But here is pretty close.

Whereas for Arthur, it is entirely possible (and quite easy) to stealth kill and finish some missions with stealth alone, in morning or night, out in the open or closed areas, throughout bushes/trees or hidden camps,

It is literally the opposite of what you just said. Damn near every stealth mission ends up with you getting caught. The only camp that you can full stealth in RDR2 is the mine in new Austin from the first game. This was actually a major criticism of RDR2 for me. Everyone else will somehow be instantly alerted if you kill their buddy.

Whenever Arthur is caught off guard, it is usually due to him facing mulitple trained outlaws or law in general

The guys who catch both Arthur and CJ Off guard are all featless. So it doesn't really matter. They've both been caught off guard by randos

Not that this is too important anyway, SBA would mean this fight probably doesn't start in stealth anyway, and if CJ were to run and try stealth Arthur can just follow him with Eagle Eye

Maybe, but the point that I was making was that despite Arthur having Eagle eye, he's still been caught off guard plenty of times.

So has CJ but CJ isn't the one with enhanced senses.

He can still be killed by gunshots, which Arthur obviously has plenty of. If you truly believe CJ is 9-A in durability then make a calc for that or whatever, it doesnt mean much here

So can Arthur and CJ will have a hell of a lot more bullets than Arthur. And I didn't say CJ should be 9-A in durability, not sure how you got that.

. I dont see anything to show CJ surviving 14 explosive rounds to his vitals, and even if he miraciously could

I still have to find a clip of him being able to survive the RPG rockets point blank. I did this a lot as a kid.
Poison weapons are a real issue tho tbh

And he can survive many rounds from his own guns from others which also pulverize human heads like in RDR2.



Sorry for the super late reply. Busy with work and shit wifi due to storm where I live

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Arthur FRA.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

They got into shootouts after escaping into the snowy mountains after the blackwater massacre? That part I don't remember...

They fought that first group of O'driscolls, and then camped at Colter.

Arthur is capable of tiring out in H2H after a while.

Arthur for sure scales, or at least was active with Dutch for 3 days in the mountains, yes, they go to Sadie's house during the snowstorm, shoot it out, then the O'driscol camp. Once again man, this is all irreleavnt and assumes the fight will go on long enough for Arthur to get tired when he can pack what, 3 stamina vials + miracle tonics, or around those numbers. CJ's thing is also really sus, as Arthur can actually do the same thing, as long as it isn't sprinting, Arthur can actually run endlessly when you're holding down the running button, and he loses 0 stamina, which sounds exactly like that CJ thing, but obviously i'm not using that to argue Arthur has infinite stamina. But I regress, this doesnt matter, Arthur wont get tired throughout the course of this match, and H2H is irrelevant as it won't reach that point

Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Whatthefuckever who cares, you get what I'm trying to say right? He still has marital arts skills and has defeated other martial artists.

And I really don't care about this little topic as it's pretty minor, but muay thai and kickboxing are very similar, so It doesn't really matter.

And the style in San fierro was never really called by name, so I understand why some people may have gotten them mixed up.

But when the hell has Arthur ever officially trained in boxing lol when is that stated? He's a skilled brawler and melee fighter for sure, but he has no formal training nor has he fought anyone with it.

Come on man, you can't be serious right? I have MA experience for years irl, and I can tell you there are major differences between Muay Thai and Kickboxing, the techniques, striking system, etc, are worlds apart. Arthur's brawling and brute strength does play a part here, and once again this assumes the fight will even reach the H2H phase, which it won't

I'll go onto my main argument which you have yet to give a counter for. Battle starts, Arthur Dead Eyes with upwards of 14 rounds to CJ's vitals. CJ has no counter to this, and Arthur is not missing with his superhuman precision. If I give you the benefit of the doubt, Arthur can activate Dead Eye again straight away and then just throw poison arrows at him, and CJ dies. Now, assuming CJ jumps him and MA's him... what is he going to do? The AP difference is what? Nothing right now? Arthur is surviving a VERY long time, and can just stab CJ with a Poisonous knife

A lot of your arguments for CJ assume the fight won't end right at the start with Dead Eye and then will go into stealth with CJ somehow sneaking up on Arthur.

And yeah, it kinda is. The military in the 90s is obviously better trained and technologically advanced than in the 1890s.

CJ did that on his own, Arthur had Charles with him.

And they both were detected at the end tbf.

Of course. Still dosent take away the fact that I think his stealth feats are better than Arthurs.

So because it's a parody, the feat is dismissed? That's the whole nature of GTA. You may as well dismiss the whole series. And even RDR as it also contains satire.

You came to steal a $500 million dollar jetpack, you weren't supposed to go entirely undetected lol


But here is pretty close.

It is literally the opposite of what you just said. Damn near every stealth mission ends up with you getting caught. The only camp that you can full stealth in RDR2 is the mine in new Austin from the first game. This was actually a major criticism of RDR2 for me. Everyone else will somehow be instantly alerted if you kill their buddy.



The guys who catch both Arthur and CJ Off guard are all featless. So it doesn't really matter. They've both been caught off guard by randos

I am not saying the feat is dismissed, I am saying that "area 51" in GTA is no where near as protected as it is IRL. You're shooting yourself on the foot by admitting that you aren't supposed to go entirely undetected man.

Except Arthur isn't caught by randos, he is caught by O'discrol members who know him, and should somewhat scale to some Van Der Linde members who have similar stealth capabilities as Arthur. There are missions in RDR that you can complete completely undetected dude. The Braithewaite sneaking mission, when Arthur is captured and can escape despite being extremely injured, you can complete that first stealth mission with Kirean almost entirely undetected, etc. I am not arguing Arthur is bloody Hitman, I am just saying CJ's stealth is no where near good enough to sneak up on Arthur.

Once again, battle starts, time slows down, upwards of 14 shots (maybe more, thats just the max I got when I got jump scared by a Bear lmao). On the off chance CJ survives his vitals being blown up, Arthur can just Dead Eye again and Poison him.

Sorry for the super late reply. Busy with work and shit wifi due to storm where I live

All good, stay safe brother

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Just tested the running not sprinting thing, you do lose like a tiny bit of stamina but it refills back to whatever the max is automatically, so yeah, he can run "endlessly". I do not think this grants either infinite stamina

 

[GoCommitDi]

Arthur FRA

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

Arthur fra

 

[GoCommitDi]

Bump

 

[Reiner04]

This match title somehow reminded me of old show I was used to watch around 10 yrs ago.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

idk man...it looks like CJ doesn't have a wincon anymore
arthur kinda stomps his ass

are you voting or?

 

[Robo432343]

are you voting or?

i don't think CJ has a wincon anymore

but if this match is getting added i'll vote arthur fra

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Arthur for sure scales, or at least was active with Dutch for 3 days in the mountains, yes, they go to Sadie's house during the snowstorm, shoot it out, then the O'driscol camp. Once again man, this is all irreleavnt and assumes the fight will go on long enough for Arthur to get tired when he can pack what, 3 stamina vials + miracle tonics, or around those numbers. CJ's thing is also really sus, as Arthur can actually do the same thing, as long as it isn't sprinting, Arthur can actually run endlessly when you're holding down the running button, and he loses 0 stamina, which sounds exactly like that CJ thing, but obviously i'm not using that to argue Arthur has infinite stamina. But I regress, this doesnt matter, Arthur wont get tired throughout the course of this match, and H2H is irrelevant as it won't reach that point

The shootout with the O'driscolls wasn't in a 3 day span. That was all just the same day. They may have been on the mountain for 3 days but there's nothing to say that the gang got into fights with O'driscolls or law while up there. Arthur even tells Charles that at that point they haven't ran into them that much. And H2H Is never irrelevant. And it's always a possibility as neither character is above getting into CQC.

If anything Arthur will try to as he's pretty much overwhelmed by Carl's modern weaponry.

As for the stamina thing, it really doesn't matter as he still gets fatigued during fights and vials could run out eventually

Come on man, you can't be serious right? I have MA experience for years irl, and I can tell you there are major differences between Muay Thai and Kickboxing, the techniques, striking system, etc, are worlds

Of course there's major differences, I was just saying how I could see how people could confuse the two. Same with the Tkd Kung Fu

Arthur's brawling and brute strength does play a part here, and once again this assumes the fight will even reach the H2H phase, which it won't

It's got a high possibly. A dude with 19th century lever action and bolt action rifles vs a dude with numerous fully automatic sub machine guns and rifles and a minigun that shreds heavily armored swat vans in seconds.
Arthur is outgunned.

I'll go onto my main argument which you have yet to give a counter for. Battle starts, Arthur Dead Eyes with upwards of 14 rounds to CJ's vitals. CJ has no counter to this, and Arthur is not missing with his superhuman precision.

He's capable of surviving shots from people who wield the same guns as him. In-game I've been shot in the head and chest, Arthurs vital areas.

The sheer power and fire rate of the minigun would give Arthur a hard time even using deadeye. He has a bit difficulty dodging gattling guns, the minigun would really be a problem.

and then just throw poison arrows at him,

Well Carl doesn't resist poison. So this is solid wincon for Arthur.

If he can even manage to tag Carl when Carl is sending a storm of minigun rounds his way.

and can just stab CJ with a Poisonous knife

Carl is a better melee fighter and incorporate his martial arts into weapons. And he has melee weapons that outranges a simple knife like a katana and chainsaw.

A lot of your arguments for CJ assume the fight won't end right at the start with Dead Eye and then will go into stealth with CJ somehow sneaking up on Arthur.

Arthur is my favorite rockstar protagonist but he can't just one tap everyone lol, I'm going as OP has it, if it starts off with CJ pointing his minigun at Arthur and Arthur his revolvers at CJ Arthur is at a disadvantage.

Deadeye or no Deadeye Arthur is getting shredded by the sheer speed and power of the minigun.

He can barely outpace a maxim in deadeye and could be killed pretty quick if not careful.

A much more powerful version of that is in CJ's hands.

I am not saying the feat is dismissed, I am saying that "area 51" in GTA is no where near as protected as it is IRL. You're shooting yourself on the foot by admitting that you aren't supposed to go entirely undetected man.

Based on? Why do you do make this assumption?

Even then, Arthur has never snuck into a military base on his OWN. Let alone a modern one. Or a relatively modern one.

How do I shoot myself in the foot by admitting that you aren't supposed to go alone?

Except Arthur isn't caught by randos, he is caught by O'discrol members who know him, and should somewhat scale to some Van Der Linde members who have similar stealth capabilities as Arthur.

Based on? What feats do random O'driscolls have to suggest they have similar stealth skills to the gang?

There are missions in RDR that you can complete completely undetected dude. The Braithewaite sneaking mission, when Arthur is captured and can escape despite being extremely injured, you can complete that first stealth mission with Kirean almost entirely undetected,

There are a few that you can do almost entirely undetected.
But my point still stands.
I still believe the military base feat to be a lot better.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Also my bad again for letting this die lol been at work, but next response won't take a week as I'm off lol

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

The shootout with the O'driscolls wasn't in a 3 day span. That was all just the same day. They may have been on the mountain for 3 days but there's nothing to say that the gang got into fights with O'driscolls or law while up there. Arthur even tells Charles that at that point they haven't ran into them that much. And H2H Is never irrelevant. And it's always a possibility as neither character is above getting into CQC.

Not my point, my point is that Arthur was awake for 3 days in a blizzard with barley any food, and most of the time (and which would be reasonable to assume) was the most active gang member in the blizzard alongside dutch and Javier. And while he was barley eating, and in that said blizzard, managed to perform in a shootout. Refer to my other comments for other stamina stuff; assuming the fight will last that long espeically with so many tonics, and Carl's "endless" stamina not holding up

Of course there's major differences, I was just saying how I could see how people could confuse the two. Same with the Tkd Kung Fu
It's got a high possibly. A dude with 19th century lever action and bolt action rifles vs a dude with numerous fully automatic sub machine guns and rifles and a minigun that shreds heavily armored swat vans in seconds.
Arthur is outgunned.
He's capable of surviving shots from people who wield the same guns as him. In-game I've been shot in the head and chest, Arthurs vital areas.

The sheer power and fire rate of the minigun would give Arthur a hard time even using deadeye. He has a bit difficulty dodging gattling guns, the minigun would really be a problem.
Well Carl doesn't resist poison. So this is solid wincon for Arthur.

Refer to my other comments to the martial arts, if it gets to that point I see no reason why Arthur wouldnt just pull out a poisoned knife and stab him with his superior brute strength
CJ does have better weapons, yes, but it's not like the guns are so much more advanced that it creates this massive gap before. Arthur has dealt with gattling guns before so it wouldnt so its not like something better but still works the same would catch him off guard, and he can take enough to just get into cover. When he was captured by the O'discrols his TB was clearly taking affect he can still take numerous amount of gunshots before he dies. I see no reason why he couldn't just get into cover, activate dead eye take less damage from CJ's weapons while in that state and then precise shoot him

Based on? Why do you do make this assumption?

Even then, Arthur has never snuck into a military base on his OWN. Let alone a modern one. Or a relatively modern one.

How do I shoot myself in the foot by admitting that you aren't supposed to go alone?


Based on? What feats do random O'driscolls have to suggest they have similar stealth skills to the gang?
There are a few that you can do almost entirely undetected.
But my point still stands.
I still believe the military base feat to be a lot better.

The O'discrolls and the Van Der Linde gang are rival gangs that have been going at it since before the start of the game, they know each other well, it is pretty reasonable to assume they have similar gunning and stealth capabilities as at least the average members of the Van Der Linde gang. General issue I have coming into play here but i really dislike how in some vsdebates a stealthy protag being caught off guard is seen as a feat against them, like it just means its a feat for the person who catches them off guard. Arthur has enough consistency in his stealth to where him being caught can just be a feat for the other person. Anyway, just watch the area 51 video for GTA and look at IRL, it's night and day lol. And you're shooting yourself in the foot because you admitted you arent supposed to be undetected, lessening the feat of sneaking in there. Oh, and when Kirean was killed the o'discrolls weren't noticed by Dutch and anyone else in camp until they were practically at the horse stations.

Anyway, I think i've said all my points and I feel this'll go in circles so i'll summarize and my responses from here on will be short

Distance fight, I agree, CJ has better weapons, but Arthur isn't going to die immediately, he can tank enough to get into cover, heal himself back up, Dead Eye and land multiple precise shots to the vitals or throw poison arrows while taking less damage due to Dead Eye. Even if you can show me CJ getting blasted 14+ times on the vitals and surviving then the poison arrows are still there.
Close ranged fight, I agree CJ is the better fighter, but Arthur can just brute strength him off or stab him with a poisoned knife.
Oh, and I dont see CJ being as precise with his weapons as Arthur is, he could just miss while Arthur is running

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Dead Eye blasting exhibit A

Exhibit B

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Not my point, my point is that Arthur was awake for 3 days in a blizzard with barley any food, and most of the time (and which would be reasonable to assume) was the most active gang member in the blizzard alongside dutch and Javier. And while he was barley eating, and in that said blizzard, managed to perform in a shootout. Refer to my other comments for other stamina stuff; assuming the fight will last that long espeically with so many tonics, and Carl's "endless" stamina not holding up

You implied that Arthur went the entire 3 day span in fights.
That didn't seem like your point.
And Arthur's stamina could still wane in H2H, where it would be a lot harder to chug tonics.

Refer to my other comments to the martial arts, if it gets to that point I see no reason why Arthur wouldnt just pull out a poisoned knife and stab him with his superior brute strength

Because the superior brute strength isn't enough to deal with the skill gap. Arthur's never fought someone with CJ's skills before.

CJ does have better weapons, yes, but it's not like the guns are so much more advanced that it creates this massive gap before. Arthur has dealt with gattling guns before so it wouldnt so its not like something better but still works the same would catch him off guard, and he can take enough to just get into cover. When he was captured by the O'discrols his TB was clearly taking affect he can still take numerous amount of gunshots before he dies. I see no reason why he couldn't just get into cover, activate dead eye take less damage from CJ's weapons while in that state and then precise shoot him

They are so much more advanced. Gattling and Maxim guns in real life do not compare to modern miniguns.

CJ's M4 alone has a greater rate of fire than a maxim gun.

Arthur has difficulty dodging Maxim Gunfire, and even though he takes reduced damage, the maxim gun could still kill him in seconds in game while in Deadeye. CJ's minigun is far more powerful being able to destroy heavily armored swat vans in seconds.

The O'discrolls and the Van Der Linde gang are rival gangs that have been going at it since before the start of the game, they know each other well, it is pretty reasonable to assume they have similar gunning and stealth capabilities as at least the average members of the Van Der Linde gang. General issue I have coming into play here but i really dislike how in some vsdebates a stealthy protag being caught off guard is seen as a feat against them, like it just means its a feat for the person who catches them off guard. Arthur has enough consistency in his stealth to where him being caught can just be a feat for the other person. Anyway, just watch the area 51 video for GTA and look at IRL, it's night and day lol. And you're shooting yourself in the foot because you admitted you arent supposed to be undetected, lessening the feat of sneaking in there. Oh, and when Kirean was killed the o'discrolls weren't noticed by Dutch and anyone else in camp until they were practically at the horse stations

Literally stated in chapter 1 as the major difference between the two is quantity over quality. Colm recruits just about anyone, when only the best run with Dutch. It's not pretty reasonable to assume they have the same combat skills and stealth skills as the Van Der Linde gang. It's the opposite. That statement in chapter 1 shoots this claim in the ass cheek.
I'm sure there's really skilled members of the O'driscolls, however we can't assume they are all competent, unlike the Van Der Linde gang who every member has proven themselves in a fight

And I'm not using Arthur being caught as feats against him. It's who he's being caught by. Levi Simon during guarma? Featless. O'driscolls during "Blessed are the peacemakers"? Featless. Bounty hunter in the fields? Featless. Guards at Cornwalls oil field? featless.


You can say the same for CJ. San Andreas and Red dead 2 aren't made for stealth tbh. But out of the two I believe Carl to be the superior in infiltration skill.

As for the O'driscolls feat during "Horseman, Apocalypse"

I mean....yeah? Of course they didn't notice. That was the point of Kieran. And Shady Belle offers plenty of places to hide like trees everywhere so it's a pretty basic feat.

They still got their asses kicked and ran away at the end.


And my foot isn't shot by saying you're not supposed to be detected in the Area 51 mission lol I have no idea why you think this. He still goes undetected longer than Arthur does at any point in RDR2 and against a far more technologically advanced foe.

Also of course Area 51 is "night and day"
It's been 30 years since SA's setting. I'm sure a lot has changed since then

Anyway, I think i've said all my points and I feel this'll go in circles so i'll summarize and my responses from here on will be short

Fair enough tbh. Don't exactly blame you

Dead Eye and land multiple precise shots to the vitals or throw poison arrows while taking less damage due to Dead Eye

Minigun fire will make this difficult

 

[LordGinSama]

Because the superior brute strength isn't enough to deal with the skill gap. Arthur's never fought someone with CJ's skills before.

Your acting as if CJ is more skilled to an unfathomable degree which isn't the case. In terms of what he's learned, it wasn't that impressive. Him learning from "masters" is pretty much irrelevant whenever they lack actual feats. I agree that CJ is the better Meele combatant but Arthur is more skilled overall in the rest of the skill categories. CJ takes CQC while Arthur takes Analytical ability, higher battle IQ, vastly more experience and much, much better shooting.

And I really don't care about this little topic as it's pretty minor, but muay thai and kickboxing are very similar, so It doesn't really matter.

Muay Thai and Kick-boxing are nothing alike. I've done the former, I can tell you how much different they are. In Kickboxing they don't teach you how to use knees or elbows, they don't condition, etc. So yeah I'd say it does actually matter.

But when the hell has Arthur ever officially trained in boxing lol when is that stated? He's a skilled brawler and melee fighter for sure, but he has no formal training nor has he fought anyone with it.

Rough and Tumble. That's what men back in the old west would you, basically a form of grappling and boxing. Speaking of which, while CJ might be the better striker Arthur actually has good ground game unlike CJ.

There doesn't seem to be much boxing in his fighting style. And even if he did you do realize that 19th century boxing is a lot different from modern boxing techniques.

It's really not that much different you realize that yourself yes? Boxing isn't an art that has lots of techniques, it pretty much hasn't changed since it's founding. You know the saying "if it's not broke don't fix it"?

No it's not. It's not about "9 times out of 10".
It's about the profile assuming CJ is at max stats. It literally says this on his profile. If you have a problem with this you should with Arthur as well considering how he has similar mechanics in his own game.

Uh no. In Red Dead your health isnt tied into durability unlike SA. Doesn't help your case I've also seen CJ die to explosions and bullets in the past even with max stats.

Arthurs health increases the more you do physically challenging things, the amount of damage you can withstand improves as well.

That's irrelevant.

For example Arthur can withstand a point blank dynamite stick, a second one will drop his health near zero. Does this invalidate this feat? No.

It does actually lmfao. That's being removed from the profile as we speak.

It honestly seems like you cherrypicked videos with default stats just to sell the CRT

Oh hop off my back lmfao. I haven't cherrypicked a thing, you're the one out here using modded gameplay for the Area 69 feat lmfao.

And yeah, it kinda is. The military in the 90s is obviously better trained and technologically advanced than in the 1890s.

This is also untrue. The military back in the day required much more skill, using vastly older weapons that lacked high fire rate guns and various other examples. Back in the day they were fighting against Native American Tribes on the daily, compare that to a Solider from the 90's equipped with automatic rifles with advanced laser scopes, hardly any training in combat since the 90's wasn't as war torn as it was in the Wild West. Quite frankly this was a dumb comment to make.

Of course. Still dosent take away the fact that I think his stealth feats are better than Arthurs.

Not really. The best thing you have is the area 69 feat where CJ can't go undected without mods used.

You came to steal a $500 million dollar jetpack, you weren't supposed to go entirely undetected lol

My guy. You didn't even read the description of the video you linked for area 69.

Spoiler: Area 69 debunk

The video description literally states There is a glitch with the searchlights in this mission. If you start it, reload a save game and start the mission again, you will notice that most of the searchlights aren't moving anymore and some aren't even facing in the right direction. I used this to my advantage, I didn't have to dodge the lights.Unfortunately, no matter how good you are stealth, the alarm is scripted to go off as soon as you gain entry to the underground area. AND even if you sneak all the way through the research lab, the soldiers will still know you are coming and will wait for you in the launch bay, ending the stealth run.

They are so much more advanced. Gattling and Maxim guns in real life do not compare to modern miniguns.

Not necessarily. That depends on the exact models for both, and I wouldn't call CJ's weapons "modern." nowadays tbh.

And my foot isn't shot by saying you're not supposed to be detected in the Area 51 mission lol I have no idea why you think this. He still goes undetected longer than Arthur does at any point in RDR2 and against a far more technologically advanced foe.

This is also bullshit. Again, CJ can only go undected using a glitch and mods from the game and even then he still gets caught. Arthur's feat against a whole ass military fort, being the biggest one possible is still vastly more impressive.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

You implied that Arthur went the entire 3 day span in fights.
That didn't seem like your point.
And Arthur's stamina could still wane in H2H, where it would be a lot harder to chug tonics.

I said, "Arthur was with Dutch for 3 days in a snow storm on the run" and then later said "taking part in shootouts", I guess it can be misinterpreted as such so i'll take some blame there, but nah, I was talking about how he was awake for 3 days, but also in that 3 day span where he was awake, he was part of a shootout. Refer to my other comments regarding stamina.

Because the superior brute strength isn't enough to deal with the skill gap. Arthur's never fought someone with CJ's skills before.
They are so much more advanced. Gattling and Maxim guns in real life do not compare to modern miniguns.

And I'm not using Arthur being caught as feats against him. It's who he's being caught by. Levi Simon during guarma? Featless. O'driscolls during "Blessed are the peacemakers"? Featless. Bounty hunter in the fields? Featless. Guards at Cornwalls oil field? featless.

The brute strength is keep him off him long enough to pull out a poisoned knife and stab, which you havent had an argument against, and as for CJ again, what is his AP? If MA is given benefit of the doubt is it enough to kill arthur before he stabs him? Arthur tanked multiple hits from a dude bigger than him and was just pissed instead of injured.

In Blessed are the peacemakers Dutch and Colm agreed to meet together and with each others history and knowledge of the others gang it is reasonable to assume they brought their top guys, or at the very least competent people, it is well known that Arthur is Dutch's right hand man and the strongest in his gang, I doubt Colm wouldn't go with people of somewhat similar skills. He planted a dude to attack a potential sniper in the first place. The Cornwall oil fields? What are you referring to here? It is entirely possible to do the stealth part of that mission undetected (gold requirement). Only time arthur is caught when bro jumps out a window with a not so pretty fall. Which bounty hunters? Guarama in the RDR guidebook showcases some of the best stealth, and yk, bro in lore was literally dying and coughing out his lungs, had barley any food or water etc. Here we are assuming Arthur isn't dying from TB.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Currently 6-1, btw, 1 more till grace

This match title somehow reminded me of old show I was used to watch around 10 yrs ago.

do you have a vote for either?

 

[Reiner04]

do you have a vote for either?

Not really. Since i don't know any of both verses. I just happened to get interested in the match title.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Your acting as if CJ is more skilled to an unfathomable degree which isn't the case. In terms of what he's learned, it wasn't that impressive. Him learning from "masters" is pretty much irrelevant whenever they lack actual feats. I agree that CJ is the better Meele combatant but Arthur is more skilled overall in the rest of the skill categories. CJ takes CQC while Arthur takes Analytical ability, higher battle IQ, vastly more experience and much, much better shooting.

I wouldn't say that Carl is vastly above Arthur in skill. But he's definitely a more complete and versatile fighter. Arthur's only fought brawlers and relies a lot on his brute strength in fights, Carl can swap between 3 different fighting styles.

Arthur is undebatably a better marksman, more tactical, but experienced means virtually nothing to me anymore. I don't really use that in vs battles no more. CJs done some crazy things on his own while initially being a lowely gangbanger.
It's irrelevant if Arthur has been an outlaw for 20 years, when CJ takes on grander and grander foes than that in less time.

Muay Thai and Kick-boxing are nothing alike. I've done the former, I can tell you how much different they are. In Kickboxing they don't teach you how to use knees or elbows, they don't condition, etc. So yeah I'd say it does actually matter

CJ in game uses knee strikes, so the game is at fault for any confusion.

Also there are some promotions that allow them

Rough and Tumble. That's what men back in the old west would you, basically a form of grappling and boxing. Speaking of which, while CJ might be the better striker Arthur actually has good ground game unlike CJ.

Carl actually does have a ground game. He learns ground and pound techniques from the gym in Venturas. And Arthurs ground game is him utilizing his brute strength, which given gap between the two is an advantage for him.

But how much of his grappling is based on techniques? He's literally just spearing and choke slamming folks tbf

It's really not that much different you realize that yourself yes? Boxing isn't an art that has lots of techniques, it pretty much hasn't changed since it's founding. You know the saying "if it's not broke don't fix it"?

...........What?! Brother, I love u, but this is such a silly thing to say lol modern Boxing is completely different compared to boxing of Red Deads time period.

This video by Tony Jeffries sums it up nice. And boxing has evolved several techniques and styles since the 18th and early 19th centuries.

Such as the Philly shell and Peak-a-boo. Stances have changed as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_styles_and_technique

Uh no. In Red Dead your health isnt tied into durability unlike SA. Doesn't help your case I've also seen CJ die to explosions and bullets in the past even with max stats

Of course he can still die I never said dude was invincible. Your health is absolutely tied to your durability. Why does Arthur die to less bullets at the start of chapter 2 than when he's got max health? Why can he die by one stick of dynamite, despite the fact that later in the game he can withstand one?

That's irrelevant

No it ain't. It's a response to you saying that 9 times out of 10 CJ will die to explosions and whatnot. You were talking about "consistency"

About how Health and Durability are two different things. Sometimes. In these two games they aren't.

It does actually lmfao. That's being removed from the profile as we speak

Oh word? It shouldn't be, but that's probably for a another thread

Oh hop off my back lmfao. I haven't cherrypicked a thing, you're the one out here using modded gameplay for the Area 69 feat lmfao

Yeah I'll take the L on that one lol my bad didn't read the description.

This is also untrue. The military back in the day required much more skill, using vastly older weapons that lacked high fire rate guns and various other examples. Back in the day they were fighting against Native American Tribes on the daily, compare that to a Solider from the 90's equipped with automatic rifles with advanced laser scopes, hardly any training in combat since the 90's wasn't as war torn as it was in the Wild West. Quite frankly this was a dumb comment to make.

............Bro......What?
This is a very ridiculous claim to make lolololololololol

Please for the love of God stop equating experience to skill.
I'm also not sure they had "advanced laser scopes" in the 90's.

The Army had a massive advantage over the natives by being more technologically advanced so I don't even get that example. And we were involved in several conflicts and interventions since the Wild West era. So the "Experience" was there. And SA is right after the cold war, a time which the US Military was rapidly improving (still is)

Link me some 1890s us military training sources, and compare them to modern day. How are they any different?

What makes you think this?

Not really. The best thing you have is the area 69 feat where CJ can't go undected without mods used.

Ehh it was a Glitch. But yeah my bad on that one lmaoo I'll concede I was wrong on that one


However. CJ can absolutely go the entire mission setting the alarm off above ground. That's just the original PS2 Version.
In the definitive edition there's a trophy dedicated to this.https://youtu.be/I9B3Avt3vcg?si=n5VkD5i24febaQg5

CJ Also sneaks through an aircraft carrier and kills soldiers and steals a jet to destroy spy ships

Not necessarily. That depends on the exact models for both, and I wouldn't call CJ's weapons "modern." nowadays tbh.

If using the ones in red dead then yeah they sluggish compared to CJ's automatic weapons. And CJ's guns are still modern at least compared to Arthur's.

The brute strength is keep him off him long enough to pull out a poisoned knife and stab, which you havent had an argument against,

The argument I used against it is superior h2h skills to avoid even being cut with the knife in the first place. Superior H2H will also help avoid being grappled

If MA is given benefit of the doubt is it enough to kill arthur before he stabs him? Arthur tanked multiple hits from a dude bigger than him and was just pissed instead of injured

Not just MA but more versatile melee weapons like sword, chainsaw etc will deal with this.

In Blessed are the peacemakers Dutch and Colm agreed to meet together and with each others history and knowledge of the others gang it is reasonable to assume they brought their top guys, or at the very least competent people, it is well known that Arthur is Dutch's right hand man and the strongest in his gang, I doubt Colm wouldn't go with people of somewhat similar skills. He planted a dude to attack a potential sniper in the first place.

Of course, but remember the tidbit about colm recruiting just about anyone? And even if they were the best, what feats do they have that put them on par with Arthur?

The Cornwall oil fields? What are you referring to here? It is entirely possible to do the stealth part of that mission undetected (gold requirement). Only time arthur is caught when bro jumps out a window with a not so pretty fall.

He got caught off a mistake like that, that's kind of an anti feat tbh. The feat wasn't top tier to begin with as he mostly just snuck past workers and the place was already noisy.

Which bounty hunters?

The mission with Charles to find Trelawny. A bounty hunter caught him off guard.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

The argument I used against it is superior h2h skills to avoid even being cut with the knife in the first place. Superior H2H will also help avoid being grappled
Not just MA but more versatile melee weapons like sword, chainsaw etc will deal with this.
Of course, but remember the tidbit about colm recruiting just about anyone? And even if they were the best, what feats do they have that put them on par with Arthur?
He got caught off a mistake like that, that's kind of an anti feat tbh. The feat wasn't top tier to begin with as he mostly just snuck past workers and the place was already noisy.
The mission with Charles to find Trelawny. A bounty hunter caught him off guard.

Uhh, Idk why the messages arent being separate for me so just note im responding in order per break

You didn't quote my full message so I assume you don't have a response for the AP question, in which case Arthur is for sure tanking it long enough to quick draw and blast CJ close range with upwards of 14 shots at the vitals, or pull out weapons imbued with poison and kill CJ that way. Superior H2H doesn't mean Arthur can't just grab his arms or legs when being punched or kicked and then overwhelemd with brute strength. And yeah, again, if his AP ain't stacking up there's no way he's killing Arthur quick enough, even if you gave him the whole skill thing. I know in lore it is more impressive but CJ's H2H visually looks so trash man, like the average boxer irl looks more skilled lol

Arthur also has his own vairety of close range or long range weapons like homing Tomahawks which can just follow CJ among many others, which unless im shown isn't something CJ has dealt with. Swords also exist in RDR2 so Arthur isn't going to find an issue there

Colm isn't bringing randoms to an open field against his rival who he knows has people like Arthur, he's not stupid. I'm not saying they're on par with Arthur, I'm saying they should be on levels as a decent Van Der Linde member. Him getting jumped won't really be an issue anyway as then they'd just be engaging in H2H which my other points address.

Him rolling down with a rough landing is an anti feat against his stealth?? come on man lol, you know that's not true. And I never argued the feat in the first place so..

That is a good referemce for him being caught, sure, but at the same time it is also a location issue and against all his other feats just screams as an inconsistency.

"Arthur is undebatably a better marksman, more tactical, but experienced means virtually nothing to me anymore. I don't really use that in vs battles no more. CJs done some crazy things on his own while initially being a lowely gangbanger."


Nahhh you can't disregard this man. In a battle that starts distanced this is absolutely important. The "crazy things" CJ's done is nothing in front of Arthur's marksmanship and tactical skill.
Again, battle starts, Arthur can just dead eye straight away and shoot away at his vitals (even assuming he's being shot he can tank long enough to kill CJ) or the battle starts he dead eyes and can shoot poison arrows, or if they engage in H2H, even if he is caught off guard, CJ doeesnt have the AP to kill him quick enough where Arthur can just brute strength his way into stabbing him with poison quickly. Also, I agree about your boxing points, but it's not like CJ has all those arts you are mentioning unless you can show me he does. Edit: "Mastering boxing" or any other MA doesnt have mean you've mastered every single style by the way, it could just be in a particular style. Floyd Mayweather has "mastered" boxing in the sense he is considered to have mastered the defensive art of "hit and not get hit", but that doesn't mean he is flawless in every other style. Same goes for kickboxing and whatever else CJ has

 

[GoCommitDi]

Bump

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Voting Arthur FRA he has way better wincons.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Been 24 hours, grace has ended, i'll add the results to the profiles. This can be closed