Courier Six vs Wolf

[Keeweed]

I should have made courier matches a long time ago. Both 9-A, speed equalized, and they start within talking distance. (If someone knows how to put pictures on these boards that would be appreciated because it always feels wrong to not have pictures of the opponents on the op of versus threads).

Edit: In this scenario the Courier is told by <insert faction> to kill Wolf. They are also told talking with Wolf should be avoided.

Samurai:

Mailman:

Inconclusive:

 

[Keeweed]

Ap wise Wolf upscales from 0.035 tons (or it maybe 0.06) while the courier is right behind 9-A+.

 

[Pepsiman25th]

why not put in vs threads?

 

[FinePoint]

I talked about it with the calc group, and it seems that Wolf's AP scales up from the low end, so:

Wolf: >=36.81 kg of TNT
Courier 6: 123.91 kg of TNT

Courier 6 has a <=~3.37x AP advantage.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

But Courier is 9-B in the profile

 

[FinePoint]

But Courier is 9-B in the profile

He has a range from 9-C to 8-C on his profile with his weapons.
He's 9-B physically. No calc I can find for that though.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

So Sekiro One Shot?

 

[FinePoint]

So Sekiro One Shot?

Yes. I edited my post to reflect that. Sorry.

 

[Keeweed]

The Courier’s durablity also ranges to 9-A, he has 9-A durability here.

 

[FinePoint]

The Courier’s durablity also ranges to 9-A, he has 9-A durability here.

Oh, that's right, with certain armors. I edited my post again lol.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Okay, courier's rating is really a mess

 

[Keeweed]

Not really. It’s slightly weird the first time you see it, but his ap does range from 9-B to 8-C and his durability also ranges. Though the courier does have a typo on his ap that leads to him having two ap justification sections when he should just have one (also the 9-A feat should link on his profile. I’m making a thread to vastly improve the Lone Wanderer so I’ll fix the courier up slightly with it as well).

 

[Keeweed]

Bump.

 

[Loyd]

starting in talking distance is a problem but

what type of person is owl? courier can possibly win via social influencing alone. if it goes bad his supernatural luck would help against Wolf in cqc, go invis with the stealth boy or better if he starts with his stealth suit.

not sure how the wiki treats V.A.T.S but he can easily stun with paralysing palm using vats.

 

[Keeweed]

I don’t think vats can be used here (the amp part, all the powers that rely on it still work, like seeing how strong Wolf is). Slower characters can’t use speed amps in versus battles (people say only if they blitz, but I don’t think the slower character should be able to use them at all because a slower character would be wining due to speed).

I chose talking distance because I always found fights starting miles away to be dumb, I wasn’t thinking of the social influencing when I set the distance.

Wolf isn’t anti social in anyway, though I want to see what people think without the social influencing. (Not completely ignore it for the final votes, just the general opinion on when they start fighting).

Wolf absolutely destroys in melee combat, the courier isn’t paralyzing him with his palm. Though miss fortune may paralyze him. Wolf is also likely going to see through the courier’s stealth because he can do everything the courier can and people with equal stealth can’t sneak up on wolf.

 

[Loyd]

Wolf isn’t anti social in anyway though I want to see what people think without the social influencing. (Not completely ignore it for the final votes, just the general opinion on when they start fighting).

well seeing as he can convince pretty crazy and devout people to stand down i don't doubt it, +confirmed bachelor.

he has several methods to stun even without the vats aid. deconstruction with plasma weaponry if that counts.

can wolf see thru invis?

 

[Keeweed]

He can block someone as equally silent as him (no noise at all) without looking. So I don’t think he can necessarily see through invisibility, but he can easily block anyways.

What ways to stun? I know he has a gun for it and miss fortune, were you thinking of different ones.

 

[FinePoint]

Courier 6 has some of the most potent social influencing I think I've seen on the wiki.
He consistently convinces crazy, vengeful, bloodlusted people to stand down with just a few words or completely give up in a few sentences.

This includes someone whose home he literally nuked, and who plotted to get revenge since then with nothing left.
It also includes Legate Lanius, the hyper-brutal legate who literally mocks the Courier for trying to talk to him because he normally kills without hesitation, but still gets talked down anyway.
It also includes the fiends, who are drugged out of their minds and shoot anything that moves pretty much.
It even works on genius robots.
He also used his speech skill to literally cure a super mutant's multiple personality disorder.

He has convinced people to kill themselves in character before too.

 

[Loyd]

what is his feat for stealth mastery? cause if we wanna go in depth courier can sneak past people in broad daylight and he has perks that make him completely silent also fighting an opponent thats invis is very difficult and(looking at his justification) maybe he can shurg off one blow from the courier anything more would be nlf.

his not a novice himself his pretty good at h2h and close quarters with supernatural luck, equipment deconstructing weapons, flash bangs etc to aid him and just one hit with paralysing palm would be over for wolf. not to mention the stealth suit with enhanced stealth.

 

[Keeweed]

Hmm, on one hand I really don’t want to make the scenario a specific way that completely removes social influencing from the picture. But on the other hand you have to be practically emotionless or beyond bloodlusted insane to get past the courier’s insane social influencing (Wolf socially is like a normal guy, he would get destroyed conversation wise).

If I gave wolf prior knowledge on the social influencing do you still think it would work?

 

[Keeweed]

The courier is only 9-B physically (though I want to change that). I highly doubt he would go for melee, especially when he can see how strong wolf is with a glance. Wolf also has flash bangs.

Stealth wise, both start literally feet from each other, I find it very unlikely they would go for stealth. Though even if they did both are completely silent and sneak around groups of people in board daylight.

Wolf’s skill is: scales to a guy that absolutely 100% can not lose to an entire army of people. With his fellow army going from thinking they are absolutely screwed to just not doing anything because their guy has the entire war for them.

Wolf is going to instantly obliterate the courier if he tries to go for melee in any way.

 

[FinePoint]

Ulysses and Legate Lanius both know that the NCR likes to try and use diplomacy, and mocks him for it.
It doesn't stop him from convincing them anyways.

I suppose if he had prior knowledge he could try to cover his ears, and fight deaf.

 

[Loyd]

Stealth wise, both start literally feet from each other, I find it very unlikely they would go for stealth. Though even if they did both are completely silent and sneak around groups of people in board daylight.

courier would likely go stealth with info analysis(or seeing how strong wolf is)

Wolf is going to instantly obliterate the courier if he tries to go for melee in any way.

not when his invisible and wolf is having the worst day of his life when his attacks are missing despite the courier being right next to him

is he allowed his plasma weaponry? he has other stun methods that don't require contact like khan trick

 

[Keeweed]

Wolf weaker than the courier’s equipment by a bit, he’s just also vastly stronger than the courier physically. I see it way more likely (ignoring the social influencing for now, it seems even prior knowledge isn’t going to help) to go for a laser or plasma rifle (or any other energy weapon) than going for stealth. The challenge for wolf would be getting in close before being deconstructed or overwhelmed by the courier’s equipment. But wolf has equipment of his own to get close and he’s very likely to win once he gets in stabbing range (though the courier’s luck can possibly give him enough time to stall and win)

 

[Loyd]

what equipment would help wolf? i haven't played the games so i can't distinguish between early and mid game items

also how would wolf get closer if the courier used stealth boy and crouch walked/relocated to a more advantageous position?

does anyone know if the new vegas suit make his equipment invisible aswell? i know it did in fallout 3 with the stealth suit.

 

[FinePoint]

what equipment would help wolf? i haven't played the games so i can't distinguish between early and mid game items

also how would wolf get closer if the courier used stealth boy and crouch walked/relocated to a more advantageous position?

does anyone know if the new vegas suit make his equipment invisible aswell? i know it did in fallout 3 with the stealth suit.

None of the armor in New Vegas makes you invisible afaik.
The Stealth Boy makes your weapon invisible too (as well as your pip boy which makes it annoying as hell to use)

 

[Keeweed]

In this scenario the courier has power armor on (I think the 9-A durability is more important than the stealth). The stealth suit doesn’t make you invisible and I can’t remember if you can get the Chinese stealth suit or not.

Wolf can react to someone he couldn’t hear nor see. I don’t see why he would be completely lost from the courier turning invisible.

For equipment Wolf has a giant shield to lock in coming blows, a grappling hook for vastly increased movability, firecrackers to stun (the courier also has flash bangs to stun, but just listing it for wolf because it’s way more important for him and way easier to use), along with his generally insane acrobatics.

 

[Loyd]

Wolf can react to someone he couldn’t hear nor see. I don’t see why he would be completely lost from the courier turning invisible.

skip back abit and technically you can still hear owl clench and unsheathe his weapon and a feat of reacting to an attack from behind doesn't equal wolf being able to consistently track an invisible opponent.
yes the courier can still temporarily retreat using the stealth boy and supernatural luck will help if wolf attempts to attack him during talking distance.
social influencing if you wanna count that
stun with compliance regulator or khan trick which requires no contact, throws dust in the opponents eye and stuns them(don't know why)
energy weapons will deconstruct his shield, sword and him(although if he blocks it with his shield and realises it deconstructs he might switch to dodging although it'd be hard when the weapon is invis aswell.) voting courier he likely takes this

he has so many perks i feel like his profile should be longer.

 

[Keeweed]

I mean the shield will absolutely fail against a plasma weapon, but if the courier goes for anything else it’ll work just fine.

Plus Wolf is way more likely to go for a dodge anyways and he’s insanely acrobatic. Though attack speed doesn’t necessarily get equalized in speed equalization (it’s relative to the user so the laser rifle attack speed is going to be a thousand times faster than both opponents). So wolf is going to be hard pressed to dodge it.

The courier picking up some dust and trying to throw into Wolf’s eyes is the dumbest idea ever. Wolf’s movability is insane he can dodge a barrage of bullets from a magnitude of different directions while being stabbed at. Pocket sand isn’t going to work.

To make it clearer, I think you are really underestimating Wolf. It’s not that the courier can’t win he has a ton of good options (and currently the social influencing probably makes it a stomp, but it’s too late at night for me to think of a better scenario for the fight), but melee and stealth are both incredibly dumb ideas versus a guy that is also stupidly good at stealth and has such a cartoonishly large advantage in melee range. Especially when the courier has an equally large advantage in the range game, don’t know why people won’t argue for that instead.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Wolf can turn near invisible with his Sugars and has way better stealth options since he's far more acrobatic.

Being hit by projectiles won't really matter to him since he can teleport on contact or block with his umbrella shield.

He has ranged options with shurikens and can attack from further away with his spear (that also doubles as being able to rip armour off of people).

 

[Loyd]

Pocket sand isn’t going to work.

its more of an unorthodox and surprise considering the courier would be invisible. or use when the time is right sort of deal.

melee and stealth are both incredibly dumb ideas versus a guy that is also stupidly good at stealth and has such a cartoonishly large advantage in melee range.

melee gets countered by funny supernatural luck and can you give me stealth feats for early wolf?

you do know bethesda tends to make there protagonist comically broken/gamebreaking when there stats are maxed right? elite operatives rangers who are way more trained and honed then edo troops won't even hear him when he walks by, can sneak past robots/a.i, like his sneaking in broad daylight past groups of people not even in cover.

bankrupting entire casinos with 6/7 luck and with 10 luck deactivating security systems with an incorrect password or bypassing facial recognition based passcodes by yelling ice cream.

i mean i don't disagree with distance and range advantage, his laser weaponry would one shot if it touched wolf(with his info anaylsis if he really wants to end it quickly avoid the shield and shoot wolf it would deconstruct him on contact)

i wonder if it'd deconstruct him anyways cause its connected to his arm and him, it does so to power armor.

 

[Keeweed]

Replying to ovens:

The courier has fought people with full invisibility dozens of times with zero difficulty, and can see them with vats/his pipboy.

Some of the courier’s projectiles can wreck Wolf though. Like plasma rifles will turn him to goop and the laser rifles will vaporize him (unless wolf has really good heat resistance (the laser rifles scale to flash vaporizing titanium)). I brought up his shield for things like: flames throwers, guns, some explosives, flash bangs, and Tesla canons. Against most energy weapons it turns to ash or goop.

There’s no way a shuriken or spear is going to keep up with the ranged options the courier has.

A bit unrelated but Wolf’s teleportation really needs to be better defined on his profile. Plus looking at it, it’s not super good, he needs to parry for it to work (if I’m looking at the right thing) due to how speed equalization works he’s not going to be able to do that against laser rifles at all. And he won’t be able to do it against any automatic energy weapon (which the courier has a lot of).

 

[Loyd]

thinking more on it i kinda agree it'd be a stomp with social influencing tho

 

[Keeweed]

thinking more on it i kinda agree it'd be a stomp with social influencing tho

Yeah I’ll change the scenario tomorrow. I’m riding to another state so I’ll have plenty of time to think of one where the courier doesn’t just tell wolf to leave.

 

[Keeweed]

Ok I edited the op. Now the courier is told to kill wolf and is told talking isn’t a good idea. This leaves the possibly that they may just talk him down anyways, but it’s way less likely.

 

[FinePoint]

Ok I edited the op. Now the courier is told to kill wolf and is told talking isn’t a good idea. This leaves the possibly that they may just talk him down anyways, but it’s way less likely.

He does just that when ordered to kill the Brotherhood of Steel and that the NCR doesn't want peace.

 

[Keeweed]

I mean, they can, but I don’t think they absolutely did that (unless he did that in the book version and we take that version as more canon). It leaves the talking option on the table, but makes it a bit more unlikely than a straight going to happen.