Cosmic Explosion Revision - Shockwaves Are Slow

[Agnaa]

This thread pertains to calculations involving images showing the destruction of large objects, such as this one.

It means the clarify that a shockwave being visible does not mean that the feat occurred in seconds, because shockwaves are slow. Shockwaves through the air are sound, and they travel at 343 m/s; you can see in this footage how many large explosions remain impressive for many many seconds due to this. Shockwaves through planetary rock travel through them between 7,000 miles per hour and 18,000 miles per hour. Or, 3,130 m/s to 8,050 m/s.

If calculations find speeds of rocks and the shockwaves that are vastly incongruent to this, they shouldn't be used. Existing calculations like this should be revised. A piece of instruction text mentioning this should be placed somewhere, but I'm not exactly sure where; ideas would be welcome.

This doesn't apply to most cases of similar feats in live action, animations, and games, as those have a temporal grounding that a timeframe can be based on. Although I wouldn't be too opposed if we still applied that there, and took the short timeframe as cinematic timing aimed to make it more watchable.

It obviously doesn't apply to cases with stated timeframes, or any other mitigating factor you can imagine that would be good textual evidence for the event taking place quickly.

Pinging some random CGMs, @Mr. Bambu @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Migue79 @CloverDragon03 @DemiiPowa

 

[CloverDragon03]

This doesn't apply to most cases of similar feats in live action, animations, and games, as those have a temporal grounding that a timeframe can be based on. Although I wouldn't be too opposed if we still applied that there, and took the short timeframe as cinematic timing aimed to make it more watchable.

At the very least, I strongly disagree with this part. That is, applying this proposal to animated versions of such feats under the pretense of "cinematic timing." That, to me, is a massive appeal to reality since it amounts to ignoring what we're directly shown just to try and fit it into real life standards.

Of course, this isn't the primary point, so I won't dwell on it for long. As for the rest, I'm inclined to disagree for similar reasons - primarily how this appeals to reality and would require us to ignore self-evidently quick movements of large parts of planets - such as these cases.

However, it's still mad early into the thread, so I'll reserve a definitive stance on the proposal at large for later once others have commented.

 

[Agnaa]

At the very least, I strongly disagree with this part. That is, applying this proposal to animated versions of such feats under the pretense of "cinematic timing." That, to me, is a massive appeal to reality since it amounts to ignoring what we're directly shown just to try and fit it into real life standards.

If we had a consistent stance on this; taking arrows, bullets, missiles, and lasers as slow if they're visible to the viewer, I'd be fine with this. But I don't like going inconsistently "Oh it's cinematic timing" to upgrade a feat, and "No that's appeal to reality!" to avoid a downgrade to a feat.

So I'd prefer the consistent route of deferring to phenomena in reality for timing, unless there's other good indicators that they're inaccurate (characters talking, stated timeframes and speeds, etc.)

But if y'all disagree, then it is what it is.

Of course, this isn't the primary point, so I won't dwell on it for long. As for the rest, I'm inclined to disagree for similar reasons - primarily how this appeals to reality and would require us to ignore self-evidently quick movements of large parts of planets - such as these cases.

I think the former case has great evidence for it being quick; characters are talking all throughout that, so the movement has to be quick. I, personally, wouldn't want the second one to be treated as fast.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If we had a consistent stance on this; taking arrows, bullets, missiles, and lasers as slow if they're visible to the viewer, I'd be fine with this. But I don't like going inconsistently "Oh it's cinematic timing" to upgrade a feat, and "No that's appeal to reality!" to avoid a downgrade to a feat.

So I'd prefer the consistent route of deferring to phenomena in reality for timing, unless there's other good indicators that they're inaccurate (characters talking, stated timeframes and speeds, etc.)

But if y'all disagree, then it is what it is.

I don't think this is at all a good equivalence to make, of course bullets and lasers are going to be slowed down to be visible to us because we can't perceive bullet speed, much less light speed. By this logic, nothing with visible lasers should ever be light speed - and that reaches a level of ignorance that I don't think is actually a good thing. As with most things, we take things case by case, rather than demanding for a one-size-fits-all approach to every feat.

I think the former case has great evidence for it being quick; characters are talking all throughout that, so the movement has to be quick. I, personally, wouldn't want the second one to be treated as fast.

Good to know for the first one. I'm inclined to disagree for the second, though, considering the planet had burst apart as he was traveling at speeds with which he quickly crosses planets.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think this is at all a good equivalence to make, of course bullets and lasers are going to be slowed down to be visible to us because we can't perceive bullet speed, much less light speed.

And planet-size explosions, displayed in real-time in media, would take over 5 hours (or if you go for a high-end view of the expected speed, about 15 minutes) to show. I think it's a good equivalence due to how unrealistic both of those viewing experiences are.

By this logic, nothing with visible lasers should ever be light speed - and that reaches a level of ignorance that I don't think is actually a good thing.

That's the opposite of my logic; I think these explosions should be treated as slow, because visible lasers should still be light speed.

As with most things, we take things case by case, rather than demanding for a one-size-fits-all approach to every feat.

Fair enough, not much to say to that.

Good to know for the first one. I'm inclined to disagree for the second, though, considering the planet had burst apart as he was traveling at speeds with which he quickly crosses planets.

Eh, I think scaling to speed from other feats is really weird. Feats aren't statements, speed can vary especially during long journeys, etc. Still, I do recognize that that is some level of backing I hadn't considered.

 

[CloverDragon03]

And planet-size explosions, displayed in real-time in media, would take over 5 hours (or if you go for a high-end view of the expected speed, about 15 minutes) to show. I think it's a good equivalence due to how unrealistic both of those viewing experiences are.

That's the opposite of my logic; I think these explosions should be treated as slow, because visible lasers should still be light speed.

Fair enough, not much to say to that.

I'll cover this all at once because I think it all ties into what I wanna say here: My point overall is that I can't really support trying to put a standard on this. If we try to go for a one-size-fits-all approach to what we consider cinematic timing, for instance, we end up with a mess that frankly just leads to some level of ignorance (i.e. if we treat the explosions as fast, that must surely mean that all real light is not actually light speed because the viewer can see it - even though that's absolutely not an anti-feat by any stretch). That's primarily why I don't see myself agreeing with this thread in lieu of additional arguments (which I anticipate will be coming as more CGMs comment).

Eh, I think scaling to speed from other feats is really weird. Feats aren't statements, speed can vary especially during long journeys, etc. Still, I do recognize that that is some level of backing I hadn't considered.

Just to clarify what I mean here, by the time we see the debris had traveled that distance, the dude's already a considerable distance away from the planet - enough to most definitely reach MHS+ to Sub-Rel speeds, which lends support to the debris traveling at such speeds.

 

[Agnaa]

I'll cover this all at once because I think it all ties into what I wanna say here: My point overall is that I can't really support trying to put a standard on this. If we try to go for a one-size-fits-all approach to what we consider cinematic timing, for instance, we end up with a mess that frankly just leads to some level of ignorance (i.e. if we treat the explosions as fast, that must surely mean that all real light is not actually light speed because the viewer can see it - even though that's absolutely not an anti-feat by any stretch). That's primarily why I don't see myself agreeing with this thread in lieu of additional arguments (which I anticipate will be coming as more CGMs comment).

Fair enough.

Just to clarify what I mean here, by the time we see the debris had traveled that distance, the dude's already a considerable distance away from the planet - enough to most definitely reach MHS+ to Sub-Rel speeds, which lends support to the debris traveling at such speeds.

My point is that, looking at it in a vacuum, since the dude isn't a real object, he can't tell us about the speeds of real objects.

And if we try to bring in the context of other scenes, especially if those other scenes are feats rather than explicit statements about how quickly he travels through space, that runs into the usual issues we get with calc stacking. Which are exacerbated by us (likely) not knowing how long it takes for him to reach top speed while traveling through space.

So I get your point, but I still find it a hard justification to side with.

 

[CloverDragon03]

My point is that, looking at it in a vacuum, since the dude isn't a real object, he can't tell us about the speeds of real objects.

And if we try to bring in the context of other scenes, especially if those other scenes are feats rather than explicit statements about how quickly he travels through space, that runs into the usual issues we get with calc stacking. Which are exacerbated by us (likely) not knowing how long it takes for him to reach top speed while traveling through space.

So I get your point, but I still find it a hard justification to side with.

I suppose there's some merit in that. I guess my line of thinking is along the lines of "okay, we have this calculated debris speed, and we see Marx appear to travel at a speed that would support this being legit" - also helped by this all being within the very same panel, which I think would lead it away from being calc stacking.

 

[Agnaa]

I suppose there's some merit in that. I guess my line of thinking is along the lines of "okay, we have this calculated debris speed, and we see Marx appear to travel at a speed that would support this being legit" - also helped by this all being within the very same panel, which I think would lead it away from being calc stacking.

Oh, are you talking about going to that weird cartoon star thing in the bottom-left panel? Since I'm not seeing anything else in the same panel or page you could be talking about.

If so, and there's context about that object being in another solar system (rather than being something like a nearby spaceship or asteroid), then I think it'd be fair to consider it quick.

Or are you saying that a character moving in that same panel means that we should apply the general panel timeframe (i.e. a few seconds) to that movement, and so the explosion would be comparable to that? If so I think that's a pretty solid argument, I'd be like 40/60 agree/disagree on that.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Oh, are you talking about going to that weird cartoon star thing in the bottom-left panel? Since I'm not seeing anything else in the same panel or page you could be talking about.

If so, and there's context about that object being in another solar system (rather than being something like a nearby spaceship or asteroid), then I think it'd be fair to consider it quick.

Or are you saying that a character moving in that same panel means that we should apply the general panel timeframe (i.e. a few seconds) to that movement, and so the explosion would be comparable to that? If so I think that's a pretty solid argument, I'd be like 40/60 agree/disagree on that.

I'm referring to this specific panel (the top left one of the whole page), so I think it's more like the latter.