Conceptual manip question

[TheGreatJedi13]

rather a simple one

They are basically wedges that define concepts and gave birth to them
for example, they define what makes fire fire and what makes it different from water, a deeper example is they define what are the difference between life and death thus these concepts can exist, a more fundamental example they can also define the difference between Existence and Nonexistence. and since these concepts exist as a fundamental aspect of reality and basically everywhere embodying them makes that entity omnipresent depends on the nature of the said concept. like the concept of space and embodying it would make one omnipresent wherever space exists

alteration of the concept that they define will not affect them in any way but affecting them would affect the concepts that they can define ultimately removing it. like if the wedge that defines life and death is removed, there will be no life and death.

Here's a catch though, the reality of the entire world/verse/universe ended they would be gone as well.

Is this still Type 1 concept or only Type 2 concept?

 

[GoldExPoints]

Affecting the underlying concept and the corresponding conceptual being staying the same does not sound logical, as that would be like altering somebody's DNA and not expecting them to mutate. But to answer your question, the closest seems to be T2 Conceptual Manipulation.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

That's the thing. that is the main point of their existence. they even had someone continue living individually after the underlying concepts he defines and the wedge itself was discarded or removed during the creation of the verse. but for some reason, the story also states that if somehow everything has come to fruition and the World has fulfilled its role and purpose and will end, so will they.

As the story goes they simply define and give birth to them but if their existence is gone those underlying concepts that govern reality on a universal scale will also disappear and lose the distinction but the other way around doesn't seem to affect them.

another weird interaction is that there is also an entity who embodied and became the underlying concept itself and his death would result in the collapse of the world since the concept is a crucial and fundamental aspect of reality but he is still unable to control the wedge that defines said concept.

tbh it doesn't really sound logical even for me unless they detail more of them being gone is not because reality ceased to exist but rather of other factors that must have been placed during their creation

EDIT : I too also agree them being Type 2 but the fact that somehow they aren't affected by the concept they define qualifies for being independent but somehow they can still cease from existence if the reality reached its end

 

[GoldExPoints]

That's the thing. that is the main point of their existence. they even had someone continue living individually after the underlying concepts he defines and the wedge itself was discarded or removed during the creation of the verse. but for some reason, the story also states that if somehow everything has come to fruition and the World has fulfilled its role and purpose and will end, so will they.

It sounds like they're seemingly invulnerable to being destroyed/killed until it's the end of the world, hence "Everything has come to fruition and the World has fulfilled his role"

As the story goes they simply define and give birth to them but if their existence is gone those underlying concepts that govern reality on a universal scale will also disappear and lose the distinction but the other way around doesn't seem to affect them.

What exactly are these wedges? Because to me it sounds like these wedges are the actual concepts themselves while their "wielders" are simply what powers or sustains their existence, like (very loosely) how a battery would power a car, the car being the wedge and the battery being the wielder. Taking the battery out won't make the car run, but the batteries still have charge in them. This would also make your next point make a bit more sense.

tbh it doesn't really sound logical even for me unless they detail more of them being gone is not because reality ceased to exist but rather of other factors that must have been placed during their creation

What exactly is this verse anyway? We might be able to gather some missing important context if we have the source material.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

The verse is Granblue fantasy they got introduced and expanded on more on recent events and how they are crucial to keeping the shape of Sky-realm

There are videos uploaded but the place where they are discussed is
Lindwurm True Dragon's Gaze (Introduction)
Dragonblood war (first appearance outside their raid battles)
Arulumaya Light Fate episode (first interaction)
Old Bonds (Personal Introduction of everyone) Episode 1 part 2-4,episode 4 part 3-4, and epilogue are the only relevant ones for this
Fediel Fate episode (a bit more of how they can use their powers but not really relevant for their nature)
Wilnas Fate Episode (same as the one above)

What exactly as these wedges? Because to me it sounds like these wedges are the actual concepts themselves while their "wielders" are simply what powers or sustains their existence, like (very loosely) how a battery would power a car. Taking the battery out won't make the car run, but the batteries still have charge in them. This would also make your next point make a bit more sense.

Quick note log scans in this game are read from bottom to top
Them being gone would result in the distortion of the concept of it being lost unless another wedge takes over it to continue defining it to prevent the world from collapsing because 1 wedge will pretty much affect all of reality and fundamental ones will outright cause the collapse.
their summary in the game journal.

The Six Dragons are a group of few remaining wedges as the others are lost, or their roles are taken over by the Six.
Orologia is also a wedge that defines and stewards the flow of time, fate and causality and is omnipresent by nature across past present and future

The four Primarch basically embodies the 4 elements(earth fire water wind) while the Supreme Primarch embodies the Ether which is the dark and light
they are the entity that embodies the underlying concept defined by the wedges

furthermore, The Primarchs are Primal Beast, whose Avatars embodies abstracts and concept and their true form being the Abstraction, myth, and concept themselves these are usually the type 3 concept but for the Primarchs they are Type 2 concepts. more details are available in their abstract existence description on their physiology page

 

[GoldExPoints]

The verse is Granblue fantasy

Are there any Granblue supporters around here? We should probably ring them up since I haven't actually played the games yet

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

There are a few but I'm currently the most knowledgeable (in terms of its up-to-date content) one since some people stepped down. I asked the question to get more outside opinions regarding it since even I getting confused.

but atm I'm assuming if they are type 2 they must be on a higher layer than baseline type 2 due to how they are unaffected by Primarch

here's one statement from Wilnas regarding the world ending and so will their existence
scans are read top to bottom on this one.

well, the CRT for it is not in a rush anyway. and hopefully, they will release the other six dragon as playable to get more stories about it.

 

[GoldExPoints]

Them being gone would result in the distortion of the concept of it being lost unless another wedge takes over it to continue defining it to prevent the world from collapsing because 1 wedge will pretty much affect all of reality and fundamental ones will outright cause the collapse.

Okay, so from how I understand it. The underlying concept is what defines everything else, but it's reliant in its wedge/wielder maintaining its existence. Seems pretty simple enough, but what would happen if a wedge does collapse/alter?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

the underlying concept collapses/alter or distort as well so does reality it governs unless another wedge takes over on maintaining it or the Creator itself decides to recreate it or takes over it.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

upon giving it more look it seems like the wedges are probably just law
and the Law is above the universal concept in this universe in this sense

although the wedge existed before reality came to be or time has came to be because they are the one that gives birth to it which IIRC qualifies for type 1 but there is a lot of contradiction that makes them not independent concept

 

[GoldExPoints]

although the wedge existed before reality came to be or time has came to be because they are the one that gives birth to it which IIRC qualifies for type 1 but there is a lot of contradiction that makes them not independent concept

Hmm, this is all getting a bit difficult for me to categorize, but I think law manipulation stands if they're the "rules" that uphold reality while conceptual manipulation means they're the abstract concepts.

So like, if it were conceptual then they're the concept of fire itself which defines it as an exothermic chemical process that creates oxidation, while if it were law then they'd be governing how fire comes to be (i.e. the processes of oxidation). And to me the wedges still sound conceptual, since how you're describing them seems to be more of the former?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

They are much closer to a rule based on the scans as the journal did say they also define the laws. and logic is often associated with law in this verse thus the laws of physics exist because of the logic of it

by default, these guys are AE type 1 anyway

 

[GoldExPoints]

by default, these guys are AE type 1 anyway

Yeah, no matter how you slice it lmao

They are much closer to a rule based on the scans as the journal did say they also define the laws. and logic is often associated with law in this verse thus the laws of physics exist because of the logic of it

Yeah, that's pretty much law manipulation then

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

So I guess law manipulation, and conceptual creation/alteration/destruction type 2 with at least 1 layer as Primarchs who can control concept cannot affect them either.

i was hoping they would be Type 1 tbh since they likely exist even before space-time came to be. Guess only the creator has Type 1 concept manip