Concept type 1 are (low-)Outerversal level

[Fixxed]

In new tiering system outerversal level basically are meta level, that trully superior from all level of reality that cannot getting reached no matter how far you stacted the reality it self

Soo what about Concept type 1?? These concept are fully independent from all reality and are the source of existence of the object or reality that it govern (it basically exist before and after the reality it self), and are in meta level of existence because basically no amount of reality can affect these abstraction

Lets be more specific, what about concept type 1 that govern time and/or space?? By it very nature these concept must be independent from time and space, and if there are time and space that can affect these concept it are anti feats that can downgrade it to type 2 concept. We can say concept of time and space are basically beyond all level of time and space it self

Soo even if concept type 1 cannot have 1A (outerversal) rating, it must at least in low 1A (low outerverse) rating. If any normal being or lower being cannot affect or manipulate this concept it mean 1A, and if they can it mean low 1A

If it not then
1. What type of concept are required for getting any outerversal rating?
2. Type 1 concept are not independent from all reality anymore?
3. Transcend time and space even if author imply a truly transcendention are not outerversal level?
4. Are physical reality or a normal reality are in same level with the abstraction that literally govern it?

 

[Livinaa]

1. Type 1 Concepts/Independent Universal Concepts that are irreducible are all 1-A. If they are reducible, then Low 1-A.

2. Type 1 Concept is still the same, independent of reality, but depending on context, they range from Low 1-A to High 1-A+

3. Depends on which kind of space and time. Low 1-A space and time? Then it would be 1-A.

4. I don't understand this one.

Edit : Wait, i think i understand the 4th question. You are asking if a physical reality can exist in the same plane of existence as the concepts that govern it, in this case Type 1 Concepts. Well, yeah, they can exist in the same level/plane of existence, but that would make the concept cap at Low 1-A. After all, if they exist in the same level, that would mean the physical reality can reach it despite being governed by the concept.

 

[Orioreeem]

Type 1 Concepts/Independent Universal Concepts that are irreducible are all 1-A. If they are reducible, then Low 1-A.

What does it mean to be irreducible? How would that even be potrayed in fiction?

 

[Livinaa]

What does it mean to be irreducible? How would that even be potrayed in fiction?

Just like how 1-A works in the tiering system. 1-A can't be reduced into lower tiers.

 

[Orioreeem]

Yea, but what does that CAN'T BE REDUCED exactly mean?

 

[Livinaa]

Yea, but what does that CAN'T BE REDUCED exactly mean?

From the Tiering System :

A way to explain their superiority over "physical composition" would be to bring attention to the fact that all of the previous tiers can be expressed as the union of constructs of lower tiers. For example, a 4-dimensional spacetime continuum is at most Low 2-C. However, an inaccessible cardinal's worth of such spacetimes is well into High 1-B+. In spite of the extremely large gap in size between the individuals comprising this totality and the totality itself, the latter is simply the sum of all the former, and as such both ultimately reside in the same state of existence, and have continuity of composition within that state.

Likewise, even the Von Neumann Universe (As well as larger structures still) is still simply the union of many elements that, individually, are smaller than itself. And the same applies to any mathematical space whatsoever.

A 1-A character or realm, on the other hand, fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states. They, in other words, transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness.

 

[Orioreeem]

I see, well how would a verse show it's concepts are irreducible?

 

[Livinaa]

I see, well how would a verse show it's concepts are irreducible?

I don't know, I'm not a writer

Edit : Actually you can try reading the Lord of the Mysteries 1-A CRT thread. They scale 1-A through Type 1 Concepts.

 

[Fixxed]

1. Type 1 Concepts/Independent Universal Concepts that are irreducible are all 1-A. If they are reducible, then Low 1-A.

2. Type 1 Concept is still the same, independent of reality, but depending on context, they range from Low 1-A to High 1-A+

3. Depends on which kind of space and time. Low 1-A space and time? Then it would be 1-A.

4. I don't understand this one.

Bruh... i say:

If it not then

If concept type 1 not low 1A or 1A, i already give some reason why these concept are outerversal, i mean by the question is if it not

 

[Livinaa]

If concept type 1 not low 1A or 1A, i already give some reason why these concept are outerversal, i mean by the question is if it not

Concept type 1 at minimum is Low 1-A. If it's not Low 1-A at minimum, it's not Type 1 Concept.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

What kind of proof do these concepts need? So they need to have a statement + show what a concept can do? Or can you just prove that they behave like a concept? Did that change at all?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

In new tiering system outerversal level basically are meta level, that trully superior from all level of reality that cannot getting reached no matter how far you stacted the reality it self

Soo what about Concept type 1?? These concept are fully independent from all reality and are the source of existence of the object or reality that it govern (it basically exist before and after the reality it self), and are in meta level of existence because basically no amount of reality can affect these abstraction

Lets be more specific, what about concept type 1 that govern time and/or space?? By it very nature these concept must be independent from time and space, and if there are time and space that can affect these concept it are anti feats that can downgrade it to type 2 concept. We can say concept of time and space are basically beyond all level of time and space it self

Soo even if concept type 1 cannot have 1A (outerversal) rating, it must at least in low 1A (low outerverse) rating. If any normal being or lower being cannot affect or manipulate this concept it mean 1A, and if they can it mean low 1A

If it not then
1. What type of concept are required for getting any outerversal rating?
2. Type 1 concept are not independent from all reality anymore?
3. Transcend time and space even if author imply a truly transcendention are not outerversal level?
4. Are physical reality or a normal reality are in same level with the abstraction that literally govern it?

Honestly our treatment of Conceptual Manipulation (Hate this ******* name) is messed up as it stands, so I don't think everything that we currently consider a "Type 1 Concept" as it stands is necessarily 1-A or Low 1-A or whatever, no. In particular I don't think half of the stuff we currently consider to be that fits the bill.

Before I start considering whether a Type 1 Concept of, say, space/time is around that range, I'd first want to verify a few characteristics: a) The concept, obviously, is the very essence of space/time. The definition/intension of it, literally "what-it-is-to-be" space/time. b) The essence is the source of all particular spatiotemporal things, to which they owe their existence while it itself owes nothing at all to them and subsists separately and independently from them. c) The essence is indivisibly present in all particular spatiotemporal things as numerically one and the same thing. So, no nonsense like "I destroyed the concept but only across this room" and yada yada.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Ultima.

So do you wish that we revise and rename our conceptual manipulation page?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Thank you for helping out, Ultima.

So do you wish that we revise and rename our conceptual manipulation page?

Well, renaming it would be good, but I'm not sure if that's tenable at this rate. I've been ping-ponging a few ideas on how to revise it in my mind lately; probably gonna bring that up later (When the wave of 1-A/High 1-A/0 threads dies down)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks again for helping out.

So is there anything left to do here, or should we close this thread?

 

[Fixxed]

Okay. Thanks again for helping out.

So is there anything left to do here, or should we close this thread?

There are few things i want to make sure, soo hold on

 

[Fixxed]

Honestly our treatment of Conceptual Manipulation (Hate this ******* name) is messed up as it stands, so I don't think everything that we currently consider a "Type 1 Concept" as it stands is necessarily 1-A or Low 1-A or whatever, no. In particular I don't think half of the stuff we currently consider to be that fits the bill.

Before I start considering whether a Type 1 Concept of, say, space/time is around that range, I'd first want to verify a few characteristics: a) The concept, obviously, is the very essence of space/time. The definition/intension of it, literally "what-it-is-to-be" space/time. b) The essence is the source of all particular spatiotemporal things, to which they owe their existence while it itself owes nothing at all to them and subsists separately and independently from them. c) The essence is indivisibly present in all particular spatiotemporal things as numerically one and the same thing. So, no nonsense like "I destroyed the concept but only across this room" and yada yada.

Soo you mean for being (low-) outerversal level, the concept must being what that makes the reality are reality it self and completely independent from the reality as it are the source from how the reality getting it very nature and existence?

Isnt all concept type 1 like that? I mean i never found concept type 1 that not the definition and not independent from it reality, if some concept not like that it will downgrade to type 2/3 or even not accepted as concept

And talking about all space and time, if some concept govern a world and there are other world that not govern by that concept, are that concept still govern "all space and time". I mean if this world are not branching world but completely different world have other law and concept of reality, have other structure of space and time

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Isnt all concept type 1 like that?

No, not really. Nowadays we accept anything as a Type 1 Concept so long as it's some vaguely abstract force (Fear, Death, whatever) that has some effect on the world and also is prior to it in some way. The above is a much more specific sequence of characteristics overall, and people just take for granted that their vague "Personification of X" characters meet them so long as they predate the world, when that's not really the case.

And talking about all space and time, if some concept govern a world and there are other world that not govern by that concept, are that concept still govern "all space and time"

No. At the very least, I don't think you'd get to argue that it's ~1-A solely off of the fact it's a so-called Type 1 Concept. Unless that other reality is actually spaceless and timeless, I suppose, as far as the normal world is concerned, but if it's literally just a parallel world with an alternate cosmology, then, yeah no.

 

[Robo432343]

i think i know a verse that could get 1-A from this

The Nexus of Souls is the birthplace of all concepts, which, includes that of Time and Space, and transcending such concepts should make one 1-A. Shajad, Beryls, C'iel and Gaira all exist beyond the Soul Flux in its entirety, outside of its influence. They chose to bind themselves to specific concepts within the structure of reality because prior to doing so they existed only beyond it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

i think i know a verse that could get 1-A from this

The Nexus of Souls is the birthplace of all concepts, which, includes that of Time and Space, and transcending such concepts should make one 1-A. Shajad, Beryls, C'iel and Gaira all exist beyond the Soul Flux in its entirety, outside of its influence. They chose to bind themselves to specific concepts within the structure of reality because prior to doing so they existed only beyond it.

Concept type doesn't even strictly matter when it comes to superiority over concepts, so, trivial example really.

 

[Fixxed]

No, not really. Nowadays we accept anything as a Type 1 Concept so long as it's some vaguely abstract force (Fear, Death, whatever) that has some effect on the world and also is prior to it in some way. The above is a much more specific sequence of characteristics overall, and people just take for granted that their vague "Personification of X" characters meet them so long as they predate the world, when that's not really the case.

Wait.. i think we dont accept just some abstract force as concept by default. I think every concept that getting accepted are literally the definition that makes the reality are reality. If soo then CM page must getting revision

I wanna make sure this again, so people not misintepret what you say (because you know there are lot of people use your word but they misintepret it or even twist it)

Soo you mean by concept type 1 here are concept that are the very essence of something the definition and source of existence of what they govern, what that makes reality are reality. Completely independent from it reality, for reality dependent on it and owe their existence because of it. Also encompasses and present in all of it reality as one whole indivisible concept

Are that right?

No. At the very least, I don't think you'd get to argue that it's ~1-A solely off of the fact it's a so-called Type 1 Concept. Unless that other reality is actually spaceless and timeless, I suppose, as far as the normal world is concerned, but if it's literally just a parallel world with an alternate cosmology, then, yeah no.

Soo you mean it must just have 1 concept for a thing in all reality, it cannot have 2 same concept in a verse?
If you have 2 concept that govern same thing but in different world, that 2 concept cannot be outerversal?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Wait.. i think we dont accept just some abstract force as concept by default. I think every concept that getting accepted are literally the definition that makes the reality are reality

You'd be surprised.

I wanna make sure this again, so people not misintepret what you say (because you know there are lot of people use your word but they misintepret it or even twist it)

Soo you mean by concept type 1 here are concept that are the very essence of something the definition and source of existence of what they govern, what that makes reality are reality. Completely independent from it reality, for reality dependent on it and owe their existence because of it. Also encompasses and present in all of it reality as one whole indivisible concept

You just repeated what I said with worse grammar, so, yeah. I'm not sure why you think people are less likely to misinterpret you than they are to misinterpret me.

If you have 2 concept that govern same thing but in different world, that 2 concept cannot be outerversal?

They can, but not due to being a concept. If you find some independent, unrelated piece of evidence for them being 1-A, then that's that.

 

[Fixxed]

They can, but not due to being a concept. If you find some independent, unrelated piece of evidence for them being 1-A, then that's that.

I still dont understand this. Isnt you say for being 1A or low 1A that concept must govern the world and other world, even if that world have their own concept?

 

[Fixxed]

Bump