Composite Human vs Fifteen

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Way to dodge the question.

Look at the other NULL Headhunter, who isn't even a Gamma Null like Fifteen. That was a mistake on my part to not specifying he could do it other than beyond death

Yes, he hasn't shown to do it on a whim like Headhunter or Subject Zero, but he is fully capable of it

 

[Moritzva]

I'm addressing the profile right now. It's a pretty important part, and the difference between him actively using it in-character and not means a lot here.

The question is, has there ever been a situation Fifteen found himself in where he probably should of rewound manually, but didn't? For example, has he ever actually been incapacitated or something of the likes.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

As I said, he has not displayed that he uses it on a wim like other others.

Not specifically. For context, Fifteen is only playable for one level of the game. For the rest of the game, you play as Subject Zero. As all NULLs, he is fully capable of doing it, but he doesn't have a scene like Subject Zero in the casino or Headhunter killing their boss repeatedly and rewinding on a whim, but he is a gamma NULL, and therefore superior to Headhunter and comparable to Subject Zero in skill/tactics. Fifteen has not been incapacitated, simply because we have not seen him in a losing scenario that he hasn't been able to get out of, but we know how the weaknesses of Nulls work based on the actions of others

 

[Moritzva]

So, Fifteen very likely could and would, but simply hasn't had the screen time to show it?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

We simply do not know. If he saw in his precog he was going to be incapacitated, then he would, but he does not have the character feats to concretely prove he would do it on a whim.

But as I said, the way to get around a NULL's precog is to make it indistinguishable from the futures where they don't attack.

 

[Moritzva]

Could you give me an example of fooling NULL's precog?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I do not have a clip, but in the Bunker level there was an explosive that was set off in an elevator. It managed to knock out Subject Zero for an indeterminate amount of time, but it was at least several minutes. Since the time up until the point of the explosive was the same, subject zero could not properly account for if there were explosives there or not. Funny enough, this is also the circumstances that proved that you could render a NULL unconcious without killing them and it would not trigger their auto rewind

 

[Wokistan]

Fifteen is explicitly a more powerful null than Zero, and both are Gammas. I don't see why his abilities would be worse off than his, and the more ridiculous application is the gameplay one anywys.

The only time I can think of precog getting rebuffed without someone else being on Chronos was when that door explodes in your face out of nowhere, but for that:

• Zero's already not on the right dosage and has been suffering withdrawal symptoms
• V has access to Chronos
• That door KOs you instantly
• V somehow killed other nulls before, meaning it's possible he has some specific countermeasure

So I guess CH could win by dragging out the fight for a super long time to make him run dry then apply just enough force to KO him without killing while somehow knowing of his greatly heightened durability compared to normal humans while still getting past his sword and teleportation but I don't see that as really being feasible. In all fairness though, it is about equivalent to some of CH's wins

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

There, so it ain't a stomp

 

[Moritzva]

With one hour of prep, I don't really see that happening. If CH had, say, days to prepare for battle, he could possibly create a setup where Fifteen would have no chance at victory.

But really, that's the issue here. The only way CH can win is if Fifteen has absolutely no way to win, because otherwise Fifteen will find that way to win, and do it.

So even with a bunch of changes to the OP, what's the point? As it is, CH really doesn't have the methods to create a permanent death trap. As well, this is assuming Fifteen simply can't rewind to before the trap was built at all.

Either CH has the time to permanently trap Fifteen and incap him until he runs out of Chronos, in which it's a stomp for CH, or CH doesn't have the time and Fifteen can simply find an avenue to win, and win, in which Fifteen would stomp.

With this new knowledge, this seems very mis-matchy, especially since he has Teleportation.

 

[Moritzva]

I'm still standing firm that this match, and especially Fifteen's previous matches, are not at all fair.

In this match, CH can't do much. Fifteen could rewind to before the hour even started and hunt down CH, teleport out of any traps, and precog past any traps or things CH may have set up. CH's best chance is Inconclusive via Fifteen being unable to find him, but I doubt simply hiding underground is a viable strategy.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Rewinding or time traveling to undo prep is against the rules of prep time, so you don't need to worry about that.

You have blatantly ignored some of the win conditions I have set out for composite human as well. One thing you have ignored is using enough explosives to knock out Fifteen but not kill him, and then drug him while he is out and bind him.

 

[Moritzva]

You've blatantly ignored the impracticality of all of those.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Impracticality doesn't mean CH cannot do it.

 

[Moritzva]

This is going in circles, but my opinion is not changing.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Not really, it seems we have made progress. You have reached the point of conceding that the ways composite human can potentially win are impractical, but not impossible. Therefore, it is not a stomp.

We can now move forward with getting enough FRAs

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Fifteen FRA.

 

[TheArsenal1212]

15 FRA

 

[TheArsenal1212]

To be fair Lapitus I understand where he's coming from. I know technically that if a character can do something to win he technically has a win condition, but doing something extremely OOC or impractical to the point a character would never do it, it's hard to see a scenario where that character could win

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

How can something be out of character for the guy that doesn't have a character?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I'm pretty sure this is a stomp.

 

[Moritzva]

The thing is, even though it's in-character for CH to attempt a winning strategy, there is none. The only way for him to win is to get lucky, and for the opponent to act like a dumbass and not use literally any of his best abilities.

So, stomp.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

With prior knowledge, OC can use enough explosives to knock out Fifteen but not kill him, and then drug him while he is out and bind him, or win by dragging out the fight for a super long time to make him run dry then apply just enough force to KO him without killing.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

The thing is, even though it's in-character for CH to attempt a winning strategy, there is none. The only way for him to win is to get lucky, and for the opponent to act like a dumbass and not use literally any of his best abilities.
So, stomp.

I have addressed this point like 18 times. Fifteen acting in character granting CH a win condition is completely valid, and happens all the time in VS matches

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Fifteen: 4

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'm pretty sure this is a stomp.

It's not a stomp. CH has access to basically one of the only consistent ways that NULLs are incapacitated. Paulo summarizes the rest

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Honestly, I don't get how "that's unlikely" is an argument when it comes to this OC. Every strategist in the history of the world put together + prior knowledge + prep = not unlikely at all.

Plus, the mere fact we managed to think of this strategy here proves OC could come up with that, or with something even better and be skilled enough to do it, specially with prior knowledge and prep.

Plus┬▓, its worth keeping in mind people vote for CH based on extremelly unlikely stuff all the time because "lol intelligence" and "lol, no character", so "it's unlikely" shouldn't be a problem at all for him.

 

[Moritzva]

Fifteen: 4

There are two votes for Fifteen.

Not four.

 

[Moritzva]

With prior knowledge, OC can use enough explosives to knock out Fifteen but not kill him, and then drug him while he is out and bind him, or win by dragging out the fight for a super long time to make him run dry then apply just enough force to KO him without killing.

Fifteen precogs, rewinds time before the explosions ignite and knock him out or jumps towards the explosions in order to kill him, then teleports away.

Or he just teleports away to start.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

15: 3 (Iapitus The Impaler, Paulo.junior.969, TheArsenal1212)

OC: 0

Thunder Mcqueen: 0

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Fifteen precogs, rewinds time before the explosions ignite and knock him out or jumps towards the explosions in order to kill him, then teleports away.

Or he just teleports away to start.

The way to get around precog is to make it indistinguishable from the futures where they don't attack. Sneak attack also does work due to thousands of possible futures.

 

[Moritzva]

Ah, right, forgot Arsenal's vote.

3 votes for 15, 3 saying stomp.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Wokistan voted for him as well

 

[Moritzva]

Actually, in retrospect, he didn't clearly vote either way. He noted it was stompish, but noted the possibility of CH being able to win.

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

So, three for the guy that looks like a girl and none for the original character donut steel.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Fifteen precogs, rewinds time before the explosions ignite and knock him out or jumps towards the explosions in order to kill him, then teleports away.

Or he just teleports away to start.

As long as the events leading up to it are the same, precog and rewind will not save them. The tactic we talked about has in canon worked, so you cannot deny it

 

[Wokistan]

That's some detailed as **** prior knowledge if he knows the exact amount of joules to produce a non fatal KO

If it's not deemed a stomp I'll go for 15. Normally I'd say this is pretty clearly one but given some of composite humans other really cheesy wins that have a similarly low chance of opponent victory i guess it cancels out so I go to not caring one way or the other

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

Yeah, most of the time, prior knowledge means "the character knows everything about the other character", this includes powers, weaknesses, stats, etc.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Fifteen: 4

 

[Paulo.junior.969]

So, three more and 15 wins.