Cole MacGrath VS.Alex Mercer

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

None. An AP gap won't inherently cause vaporization because that's not how vaporization works. It's a matter of heat, not AP. -Mr. bambu

So has cole ever vaporized someone with his attacks? Not that it matters I guess seeing as alex is mid high just thought id look into if this would have been less of an incon with low high.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Maybe Or in my case, Imo and very likely the heat of the lightning storm being comparable to the sun and Cole can hold it off much longer than a nuke's briefness would be enough.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Considering he hasn't done it to someone in his own games and has no feats of his lighting actually disintergrating even average humans? Nope! We can't assume something like that without feats, I even asked bambu about it, you need feats to make that assumption!

edit basically he needs feats of vaporizing superhumans with his attacks, you can't really argue (thats what real lightning would do) In fiction... theres a reason lightning feats are so irratating.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Yeah. Like Alex Mercer's half a second screenshot feat alongside him lacking any other feats regenerating from what his regen ranking should be huh. Pretty interesting stuff.

Much like how Alex Mercer can't infect people with gas clouds in the first game, Cole can't vaporise humans in Infamous cause gameplay limitations. Then again we get a lot more showings in that in the sequel Second Son so I'd say it's safe to say that "Prime Conduit" level conduits can do it....

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

If you want to argue it again in another crt I will but Im saying alex low high regen (His old regen) would still be too high for cole. Yeah he has a feat for his regen...Cole doesn't have a feat for vaporization unless I missed something. We see alex infect people in the begining of the second game so Im not sure what your arguing.

I don't make the rules on atomization or vaporization, according to the rules cole lacks the feats to accomplish either, unless I missed something.

Delsin isn't considered comparable to cole so I don't get your point? They are two different characters with distinct powers, one being able to vaporize wouldn't grant it to the other.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Argument:

>Alex can't do all the stuff he can do in game (Gameplay mechanics)

>Same for Cole

Easy. Not worth arguing anyway, just want to call out if we're doing the same for Alex, we should be allowed to do the same for others


Conduits to the strongest degree can basically easily vaporise conventional people and Cole being on a level treated higher than Delsin is a safe level to treat them as capable of vaporising people.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Im not sure we don't scale second son conduits to older ones because they function on different levels. There strength, and ap aren't considered scalable, so why would a conduit functioning with different powers and on a different level scale to coles own? Being stronger doesn't equal vaporization or atomization. The whole problem is both these abilities are unlinked from ap (I think the movement system in second son was better, is that popular opinion? I don't know just felt alot more fluid)

Did cole vaporize someone? could his powers do so? What showings does he have for it? If it happened in the comics fair enough. Im just saying old conduits and second son conduits are already considered different entities. Alex capablities are based on showings outside gameplay when did cole display the ability to vaporize people outside gameplay? If he did fair enough but without that...

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Not really.

Let's see, being treated as the strongest conduit to a level superior to Delsin Rowe for one thing. The tendency of the Beast to actually vaporise people and how Cole was able to easily contest with that and gain said powers too. The fact that natural lightning that lasts for a few microseconds has a tendency to turn certain things into ash and how Cole was able to harness even more power thus making it sensible that he could do it to a greater greater magnitude.

And again with the gameplay feats.

We don't have gameplay feats of that, same with Alex regenerating from being reduced to ashes or such. We use logic. We use calcs. Etc. If we take everything face value, then we're going to have to nerf Alex right now. If Alex gets buffs through 'logic' then so can everyone else.

It's only fair no?


But then again... back to Second Son vaporising if we're going to have to use that again. If even regular conduits with elements can do that to regular people when their element can't do that realistically, well, Cole who's several times stronger and has actual lightning would be an easy swing.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Cole being stronger really isnt a good argument as vaporization and atomization aren't linked to ap.... And second son conduits show fundmental differences to there origin counterparts, to the point they don't scale...

edit stength doesn't equate to vaporization....Him being the toughest conduit isn't enough, hed need feats of his attacks vaporizing, so has he shown that? Matching the beast power/strength still doesn't equal him having those abilities...

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

His strength can be easily correlated with heat considering how much more energy he can use.

When a lesser conduit whose ability is manipulating energy just like he is, can vaporise regular beings, well it's safe to say he's got this.


Also Atomization yes.

Vaporisation is different.


I'm not saying Nix and Kuo can do the same or even Alden. I'm saying those who use harmful energy with intense heat have a tendency to succeed on vaporising via sheer energy and stuff they have.

If I don't pop up much I apologize, been very busy

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

What conduit that he's comparable to can vaporize? Like i said second son doesn't scale...The only example you gave was the beast,so the beast has attacks that vaporize? Can cole acheive something similar?

I asked around vaporization is another instance of needing feats of vaporizing other superhumans. Maybe coles lightining would be enough but it'd be real helpful if he had feats of doing it himself as Im not sure how scalable heat is....

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Its fine don't aplogize! though we don't often agree your presence is always appreciated! I aplogize if I ever come across as two agressive but I enjoy debating with you and the challange can cause me to be overly dramatic. Know this even if we never agree on certain things Im always pleased by your appearence in debates.

Sorry for dragging out this hypothetical alex mid high regen makes it pointless I just wanted to know how much more one sided this would be with alex old regen and doesn't seem as bad as I expected

edit: After I read up about vaporization all I could think was....I wonder if cirno will pop a blood vessel over this hypothetical (and I was sorta hoping to get you into another heated debate ) and I feel bad for having that thought so I aplogize sometimes Im more evil then I should be and Im really sorry!

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

As same as before, Cole is second only (initially) to the Beast who was able to vaporise everything in a certain cutscene in ISS. Again, much like Alex's regen feat we're going to have to use logic and other aspects. And well easily placed on Beast Cole considering Cole can gain his power that way.

Again, if Alex hasn't shown any other scene of regenning outside of a screenshot which is already questionable and only backed by reasoning or word feats, Cole shouldn't be any different.

And it's cool! Same for me, I just tend to type fast and bluntly if I'm in a rush. And same to you!

Yup. Kinda nice to see it's not too one sided. And same effect with Beast Cole lol.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Fair enough I think I would accept it in the hypothetical scenario where alex still had low high (If only to avoid the dissatisfaction this incon brings me.....Has anyone tried to change the 24 ruling in the past)

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Not yet but I feel like it really is a rule that should be adjusted at least, gtg for now, nice to see you around again Pen! I'll prob return to this soon tho

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

K Have a good day! I think it needs to be looked at as well! Hope to see you in the future!

 

[Sir_sun_man]

welp

mercer outlives

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3456284

 

[The_Calaca]

Lol

 

[Schnee_One]

Cole should have immortality dove Conduits can live since the Salem Wotch trials and Kessler in particular is over 100 years old.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

Cole should have immortality dove Conduits can live since the Salem Wotch trials and Kessler in particular is over 100 years old.

they are not immortal just have prolonged life spans

beast on the other hand is a whole different catle of fish

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

But kessler still looks older and as far as I can tell both those feats simply suggest longevity at best.... So alex still outlives lol of course beast cole still stomps.

edit well ciruno atleast matches like this wont be incon anymore as long as a character has a supiror life span...Not a satisfying conclusion to be honest but a humerous one if nothing else.

 

[Schnee_One]

Whelp

 

[Schnee_One]

Right I'm dumb and forgot Arc restraints.

Does Alex counter those? Though it's a stomp in the other direction if he doesn't.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

How do they work?

Alex shapeshifting is pretty good for breaking out of restraint more how long does the restariant last?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Looking at them I don't see what stops mercer from shrinking his wrist, detatching his hands...ripping his own body apart against the restraints since they only cover the hands and feet

edit Im pretty sure alex counter is shapeshifting his way out here...According to what I found it seems like they are breakable from outside forces as the main purpose is to restrain until cops arrive...

 

[Schnee_One]

The arc restraints adapt to tighten around his wrist

How does he detach his hands? What stops Cole from making an arch restraint around his entire body?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

By pulling them off? deatatching the wrist literally just disconnencting the biomass ect. Mid high regen and no care for his body, what stops him from literally pulling against the restraints till his hands and feet come off? Shapeshifting, what stops him from shrinking his wrist or pullling his biomass out ?

 

[Schnee_One]

7C pulling off High 6C restraints?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Not the restraints his literal hands

 

[Schnee_One]

How? Can he telepathically rip them off? Haven't played prototype in a while.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

No he can yank against the restriants though, or again shapeshift them out or simply dissconnent the tissue connecting his hands and arms.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

His body control is molecular having his biomass pass back through the hole isn't a challange, or again he has the molecules connecting his wrist to his hands seperate

edit Has cole ever done that? Is it reasonable to assume he can? The only use ive seen on the ability is it restraining humans/conduits by the hands and feet. this was before conduits could burst into elements to escape things so.... The restraints seem to connect to the ground what stops alex from smashing downward and out?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Although I question why bother reopening this isn't like before where this was open because it was an unsatisfying incon that could be used. Assuming cole can restrain its a stomp, if he cant its still a stomp.

 

[Schnee_One]

Why not? Discussion is worth having regardless of if it's a stomp or not.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Fair enough lol Just seems like the conclusion would be the same, stomp either way. Either cole makes a restraint that covers mercers entire body (To stop his shapshifting body control shenanigans) or he cant and alex stomps via immortality. Those are the two possiblities I currently see.

 

[Schnee_One]

You mean immortality, not longevity

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

You know what I meant! Grounded for sass! Detention....Whatever other random punishments I can think of lol

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Still weird to me to think a valid win condition is just outliving your opponent though I wonder at the applicability...It only seems like it will take a lot of matches from being incon to stomps...

 

[DeathNoodles]

I'm pretty sure I've only seen Cole ever use his Arc Restraints on his targets by their arms and legs, and even then it seems to be done when they are "downed" (basically when they are injured and are laying on the ground, temporarily incapacitated. The Arc Restraints seems to have been used to lengthen the incapacitation length).

I'm pretty sure Mercer can easily shift his shape and mass out of that, or just abandon his arms and legs (via detaching them as they are just biomass like the rest of his entire body is comprised of, which he has control over) to form new ones.

And unless Cole has used his Arc Restraints to restrain his targets' every molecule, I'm pretty sure that won't stop Mercer from being able to escape the restraints.

 

[Schnee_One]

He's done it on their throats and waists as well. Also they do g need to be incapacitated to do it either, just on their backs.