Climbing 7-B: Smeargle Vs Kakine Teitoku

[Bobsican]

Speed equalized, both at 7-B

Smeargle

Kakine Teitoku

 

[Purmeenant]

Imprison+Transform

 

[Ebihara]

Imprison+Transform

How far can he climb!

 

[Bobsican]

I think the limit is here unless I'm missing something from Arifureta characters.

Anyways, for those unaware, because of SBA placing characters at their peak, this assumes that Smeargle has everything that can be copied by Sketch at once, which enables Smeargle to pull the strategy of incapping with a sleep-inducing move like Spore or Sing, then finish off with the combination of Imprison then Transform, which applies power nullification to everything the user can do, and Transform enables to copy all of Kakine's kit by replicating him (including experience to perform his abilities).

 

[XDragnoir]

I think the limit is here unless I'm missing something from Arifureta characters.

Anyways, for those unaware, because of SBA placing characters at their peak, this assumes that Smeargle has everything that can be copied by Sketch at once, which enables Smeargle to pull the strategy of incapping with a sleep-inducing move like Spore or Sing, then finish off with the combination of Imprison then Transform, which applies power nullification to everything the user can do, and Transform enables to copy all of Kakine's kit by replicating him (including experience to perform his abilities).

Sleep won't work against Kakine tho, he doesn't need to sleep nor is he even alive in the normal sense.

Can it power null reality warping/probability manipulation? As for copying Kakine, sure, nothing in his kit can kill him, at best that would be an incon if Smeargle receives his immortality through that copy ability.

Also, given esper powers need supercomputer brains to replicate their stuff, can Smeargle even use them properly?

 

[Keeweed]

Sleep in pokemon can work on literal piles of gears and ghost. Though I imagine Kakine pulls out the funny haha hax and wins.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I love how we're just like "Imprison+Transform!!!" like that's Smeargle's first move. Flip a few hundred coins, because he gets completely railed every single time he DOES NOT do that EXACT combination.

 

[Bobsican]

Sleep won't work against Kakine tho, he doesn't need to sleep nor is he even alive in the normal sense.

I mean, machines and inorganic beings are affected as well.

Can it power null reality warping/probability manipulation? As for copying Kakine, sure, nothing in his kit can kill him, at best that would be an incon if Smeargle receives his immortality through that copy ability.

Depends on what is done with them, as technically we do currently label Trick Room (which can be copied by Imposter and Sketch) as Reality Warping.

Also, given esper powers need supercomputer brains to replicate their stuff, can Smeargle even use them properly?

Transform can copy the capabilities/physiology of Slowking, Mega Metagross and Mega Alakazam (which range intelligence-wise from award-winning scientists to specifically bypassing supercomputers), so yeah.

I love how we're just like "Imprison+Transform!!!" like that's Smeargle's first move. Flip a few hundred coins, because he gets completely railed every single time he DOES NOT do that EXACT combination.

And that's where inducing sleep comes in handy as then it can try throwing stuff and seeing what works, besides Imprison + Transform, there's Sheer Cold (Absolute Zero), Fissure (BFR) and suppressing the regeneration with Heal Block or Psychic Noise then brute forcing with regular attacks. Of course, let's not ignore either that Smeargle's AP, Durability and Speed passively increase over time out of its Moody ability.

 

[DaReaperMan]

And that's where inducing sleep comes in handy as then it can try throwing stuff and seeing what works, besides Imprison + Transform, there's Sheer Cold (Absolute Zero), Fissure (BFR) and suppressing the regeneration with Heal Block or Psychic Noise then brute forcing with regular attacks. Of course, let's not ignore either that Smeargle's AP, Durability and Speed passively increase over time out of its Moody ability.

Oh cool, more improbable things!

How do you know that Smeargle doesn't use quite literally any other move in Pokémon, including physical ones which just instantly get him absorbed?

There are 16 total moves that can inflict sleep. A single combo that can maybe win, and the instant kill moves that get Smeargle killed because they hit with a 30% chance, and about half the moves he can use just get him killed, or are too slow, or just don't do what he wants and gets him touched.

 

[XDragnoir]

I mean, machines and inorganic beings are affected as well.

Can sleep affect a wall? Even if they're unconventional in one way or the other, they're still Pokémon, so conscious in some form.

Kakine is a bunch of alien particles that was made to act like a real human.

Transform can copy the capabilities/physiology of Slowking, Mega Metagross and Mega Alakazam (which range intelligence-wise from award-winning scientists to specifically bypassing supercomputers), so yeah.

How good are these supercomputers you're talking about?

And that's where inducing sleep comes in handy as then it can try throwing stuff and seeing what works, besides Imprison + Transform, there's Sheer Cold (Absolute Zero), Fissure (BFR) and suppressing the regeneration with Heal Block or Psychic Noise then brute forcing with regular attacks. Of course, let's not ignore either that Smeargle's AP, Durability and Speed passively increase over time out of its Moody ability.

None of these work or can put Kakine down for good tho:

Absolute Zero: would freeze a single body for a few moments at best, given he has subatomic control of his body and would be able to just move his particles normally and destroy any ice he is encased in.

BFR would need to affect all bodies and particles he would spread across the battle field.

I am not sure how Heal Block or Psychic Noise work, but they probably won't work as his "regen" is closer to creating a new body than healing one.

Regular attacks won't kill him.

AP, Durability and Speed aren't useful either, at best it would force an incon if Smeargle can resist matter absorption or cellular transmutation, but I can't see any in his profile.

 

[XDragnoir]

Depends on what is done with them, as technically we do currently label Trick Room (which can be copied by Imposter and Sketch) as Reality Warping.

Forgot to answer this:

Esper Power

An esper is a person who wields a supernatural power via scientific means. The vast majority of espers are produced by a person going through Academy City's Power Curriculum Programm, but around 50 espers that acquired their abilities by natural means, so-called Gemstones, are confirmed to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here is the wiki page for it, it explains a good bit and I'd say it looks nothing like Trick Room.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah, Smeargle loses. It would need feats of the required technique combinations being its in-character moves to even consider this debate.
And as no actual Smeargle with this many moves exists that is not happening.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh cool, more improbable things!

How do you know that Smeargle doesn't use quite literally any other move in Pokémon, including physical ones which just instantly get him absorbed?

Smeargle can foresee what to do by seeing the future with Future Sight.

There are 16 total moves that can inflict sleep. A single combo that can maybe win, and the instant kill moves that get Smeargle killed because they hit with a 30% chance, and about half the moves he can use just get him killed, or are too slow, or just don't do what he wants and gets him touched.

Spore is one of the few moves Smeargle can learn without using Sketch, thus minimizing the "realistic" pool of leading options a good amount. The 30% chance is only out of accuracy and even so can be circumvented with Mind Reader or Lock-On to ensure either Fissure or Sheer Cold land.

Can sleep affect a wall? Even if they're unconventional in one way or the other, they're still Pokémon, so conscious in some form.

Kakine is a bunch of alien particles that was made to act like a real human.

How good are these supercomputers you're talking about?

Actually, that may be arguable. As for the supercomputer bit, enough to simulate virtual worlds.

None of these work or can put Kakine down for good tho:

Absolute Zero: would freeze a single body for a few moments at best, given he has subatomic control of his body and would be able to just move his particles normally and destroy any ice he is encased in.

BFR would need to affect all bodies and particles he would spread across the battle field.

Yeah, I'll concede the points here.

I am not sure how Heal Block or Psychic Noise work, but they probably won't work as his "regen" is closer to creating a new body than healing one.

Regular attacks won't kill him.

AP, Durability and Speed aren't useful either, at best it would force an incon if Smeargle can resist matter absorption or cellular transmutation, but I can't see any in his profile.

Well, they do also block the capability of the target to inflict healing on others, which one could argue for this to include creating a new body. On that note they do also appear to block matter-absorbing passives from healing, which is seemingly notable to mention here.

Forgot to answer this:

Esper Power

An esper is a person who wields a supernatural power via scientific means. The vast majority of espers are produced by a person going through Academy City's Power Curriculum Programm, but around 50 espers that acquired their abilities by natural means, so-called Gemstones, are confirmed to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here is the wiki page for it, it explains a good bit and I'd say it looks nothing like Trick Room.

Oh, well, Transform can copy the mechanics of Hadron Engine and Tachyon Cutter, showing the capability to mimic the use of exotic and theoretical quantum particles. Given that Imprison itself is limited to what the user itself can perform, by extension that'd also be nullificable by it.

Yeah, Smeargle loses. It would need feats of the required technique combinations being its in-character moves to even consider this debate.
And as no actual Smeargle with this many moves exists that is not happening.

Well, this does become dubious as the 4 move limit limitation is considered as a game mechanic.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Smeargle can foresee what to do by seeing the future with Future Sight.

Ah, so another move that Smeargle has a 1 in 933 chance of using!

Spore is one of the few moves Smeargle can learn without using Sketch, thus minimizing the "realistic" pool of leading options a good amount. The 30% chance is only out of accuracy and even so can be circumvented with Mind Reader or Lock-On to ensure either Fissure or Sheer Cold land.

One-hit KO moves are some of the few in Pokémon that can't have their accuracy increased.

 

[Bobsican]

Ah, so another move that Smeargle has a 1 in 933 chance of using!

Well, Smeargle isn't just using attacks at random as far the leading game comes, considering its intelligence in this context.

One-hit KO moves are some of the few in Pokémon that can't have their accuracy increased.

Those moves don't change accuracy and instead add a homing attack trait to the next one.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, this does become dubious as the 4 move limit limitation is considered as a game mechanic.

That has nothing to do with the four move limit.
I'm not saying it can't have all the moves, I am saying that when it has all the moves it requires feats of which of these it will actually default to using, just like any other character needs feats of in-character behaviour.
Smeargle can't have such feats, as no example of a Smeargle with all these moves exists and we hence can't know its in-character behaviour.

If the in-character behaviour of a character is unknown we generally default to the least favourable reasonable interpretation.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Well, Smeargle isn't just using attacks at random as far the leading game comes, considering its intelligence in this context.

Now where's the canonical showing of him using Future Sight immediately to start a battle.

For characters like this we either go with what is shown, which for wild Smeargles is basically nothing. We know they like to Sketch a lot but that's it.

Those moves don't change accuracy and instead add a homing attack trait to the next one.

Which does not work on one-hit KO moves.

There is literally 0 way to make them ANY more accurate than 30%. If you want to argue this, grab yourself a Smeargle, grab both moves, and try it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That has nothing to do with the four move limit.
I'm not saying it can't have all the moves, I am saying that when it has all the moves it requires feats of which of these it will actually default to using, just like any other character needs feats of in-character behaviour.
Smeargle can't have such feats, as no example of a Smeargle with all these moves exists and we hence can't know its in-character behaviour.

If the in-character behaviour of a character is unknown we generally default to the least favourable reasonable interpretation.

Or just start pulling the slot machine lever

 

[Ebihara]

Which does not work on one-hit KO moves.

This is literally untrue. unless we are treating it differently then how it works in games.

 

[Ebihara]

how do we treat things that work differntly gen to gen? its most recent implementation?

 

[Ebihara]

There is literally 0 way to make them ANY more accurate than 30%. If you want to argue this, grab yourself a Smeargle, grab both moves, and try it.

skill swapping no guard onto a mon that has the moves works. I cant see how this would ever happen in a versus thread but its there.

 

[DaReaperMan]

This is literally untrue. unless we are treating it differently then how it works in games.

As someone semi-knowledgeable on the games, if it worked how you all thought it did, there would be smeargles in competitive right now.

 

[Bobsican]

Now where's the canonical showing of him using Future Sight immediately to start a battle.

For characters like this we either go with what is shown, which for wild Smeargles is basically nothing. We know they like to Sketch a lot but that's it.

Yeah, got nothing here.

On that matter I'll back to my point of Spore being known as a move it gets without Sketch, and one could still assume Smeargle would use Sketch as it's something it naturally learns 10 times compared to everything else, and by extension gaining some understanding of what it is dealing with.

Which does not work on one-hit KO moves.

There is literally 0 way to make them ANY more accurate than 30%. If you want to argue this, grab yourself a Smeargle, grab both moves, and try it.

I mean, not only are the games self-aware of this detail, this also applies to No Guard.

As someone semi-knowledgeable on the games, if it worked how you all thought it did, there would be smeargles in competitive right now.

Ahem

The reason Lock-On or Mind Reader + a OHKO move aren't used is because the latter are banned from most competitive formats, and the opponent being capable of switching out (aka, swapping to another ally while becoming encased back to a Poke Ball) to remove the homing trait further discourages that. Smeargle being relatively frail to what the formats that allow OHKO moves have also doesn't help.

how do we treat things that work differntly gen to gen? its most recent implementation?

Unless it's a dexit'd move, yes, as dexit'd moves are just straight up removed out of development simplification reasons (aka, game mechanics).

 

[Ebihara]

As someone semi-knowledgeable on the games, if it worked how you all thought it did, there would be smeargles in competitive right now.

Sheer Cold (move)

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

i also just tested it myself. Again I dont know what version of the game we base stuff of, but it should function the same in every game. it doesnt work if they are higher level but I dont think levels are somthing that exist for our purposes?

" However, effects that guarantee moves to hit (such as No Guard and Lock-On) still affect Sheer Cold."

 

[XDragnoir]

Actually, that may be arguable. As for the supercomputer bit, enough to simulate virtual worlds.

These are still Pokémon, I want to see a random normal wall getting affected.

As for the virtual world here... what? I don't see how that's related to Metagross or Smeargle.

Yeah, I'll concede the points here.

Well, they do also block the capability of the target to inflict healing on others, which one could argue for this to include creating a new body. On that note they do also appear to block matter-absorbing passives from healing, which is seemingly notable to mention here.

Okay, simple question, does Heal Block stop a Pokémon of fire from using fire moves? If it does, nice, otherwise Kakine will heal just fine.

Oh, well, Transform can copy the mechanics of Hadron Engine and Tachyon Cutter, showing the capability to mimic the use of exotic and theoretical quantum particles. Given that Imprison itself is limited to what the user itself can perform, by extension that'd also be nullificable by it.

None of these have anything to do with either Kakine or Esper Powers, tho.

 

[Bobsican]

These are still Pokémon, I want to see a random normal wall getting affected.

Well, in what sense does Kakine have a will here then? Given he'd have a desire to defend something per SBA that'd imply that a mundane inanimate wall is not the best comparison.

As for the virtual world here... what? I don't see how that's related to Metagross or Smeargle.

It is related to the kind of stuff Metagross and Alakazam upscale to intelligence-wise, and then from what Transform from Smeargle can copy capability/physiology-wise.

Okay, simple question, does Heal Block stop a Pokémon of fire from using fire moves? If it does, nice, otherwise Kakine will heal just fine.

Can you explain here? It does prevent a certain Fire-type Pokemon from using a Fire healing-move at least.

None of these have anything to do with either Kakine or Esper Powers, tho.

Well, the question here would be more so on how much verse equalization is applicable here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

On that matter I'll back to my point of Spore being known as a move it gets without Sketch, and one could still assume Smeargle would use Sketch as it's something it naturally learns 10 times compared to everything else, and by extension gaining some understanding of what it is dealing with.

Quite frankly, the Smeargle in Pokemon Adventures Chapter 105 fighting by blinding the opponent with paint is probably harder evidence of in-character behaviour than that. (as long as we use all media)

Given, Spore would not work on Kakine (the spores would disintegrate from interaction with Dark Matter) and even if they did, the moment one falls asleep one of the countless pre-existing spare clones just takes action instead, as seen when primary Kakine was incapacitated by Rensa.

 

[Bobsican]

Hm, that's a fair point.

 

[deonment]

As someone semi-knowledgeable on the games, if it worked how you all thought it did, there would be smeargles in competitive right now.

This is objectively wrong
All accuracy-affecting moves do impact OHKO moves, the reason why smeargle isn't in competitive rn is that its stats are dogwater, the moves that enabled it have been sent into the floor in the case of dark void, or banned in the case of baton pass, and thinking a two turn setup is going to be anywhere near consistent like the opponent won't accidentally breathe too hard and one shot it in either VGC or Smogon is laughable, in addition to OHKO moves, in general, being uncompetitive in Smogon and are thus banned over there rather than due to being too strong.

Anyways thinking Smeargle will attempt to use any other move than Sketch as its first action is profoundly scuffed, and while it can learn Spore due to events, spore won't actually let it do anything here, and bringing up Koridon and Miradon's abilities as examples of "quantum stuff" is something I would genuinely call out as a name fallacy considering the effects in general do not match with what the particles themselves actually do, and either way, those are abilities, not moves, and so even if we were to say they were actually legitimate, saying that imprison can nullify stuff like that is outright wrong, especially considering the stuff it would be trying to nullify would absolutely count as an ability or type in pokemon terms due to being based on physiology rather than something actively being used, heal block also just doesn't stop Regenerator so saying it would negate physiological regen is scuffed

I also question Transform even working in the first place as all instances of Transform only work on stuff that consists of "normal" matter (and also iirc it doesn't work on Dark Matter (the SMD Villian), which implies that it only works on actual pokemon, so...), which dark matter in this case just straight up isn't, I could also go into how we straight up know from the lore how Transform works via messing with cells and DNA sequence, and even if you wanted to stretch and say that there are inorganics it does affect, firstly, those same inorganics can produce eggs (ie Magnemite, Geodude, Porygon) implies that they have some level of DNA within them, likely code if you wanted to go in that direction.

But the point still stands, Transform has negative reasons to work on Kakine, and thus the Transform Imprison strat is bunk for several reasons, the least of which being the fact that the chances of it taking the actions to get that off are obscenely small, and its more likely that Kakine wins here, but worst this is an inconclusive.

I will be voting Kakine for my own reasons

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, got nothing here.

On that matter I'll back to my point of Spore being known as a move it gets without Sketch, and one could still assume Smeargle would use Sketch as it's something it naturally learns 10 times compared to everything else, and by extension gaining some understanding of what it is dealing with.

what's it gonna copy with Sketch? How to walk towards the opponent menacingly??? You're dealing with passive effects here lol

I mean, not only are the games self-aware of this detail, this also applies to No Guard.

And has literally anyone tried this? Pretty poor move to just trust a wiki 100% on a specific intaction like this

Ahem

The reason Lock-On or Mind Reader + a OHKO move aren't used is because the latter are banned from most competitive formats, and the opponent being capable of switching out (aka, swapping to another ally while becoming encased back to a Poke Ball) to remove the homing trait further discourages that. Smeargle being relatively frail to what the formats that allow OHKO moves have also doesn't help.

Ever hear of this strange little move called "Dark Void"? It's Darkrai's signature move...

And Smeargle got it nerfed to borderline uselessness and had it taken away from the things it could sketch. Frailty isn't an argument for a pokémon to not get a guaranteed switch out. Because people will apsolutely want that. Gonna be blunt, 1v1 isn't the official format for competitive Pokémon either so...

Unless it's a dexit'd move, yes, as dexit'd moves are just straight up removed out of development simplification reasons (aka, game mechanics).

This yeah.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, stomp FRA then.

I'll discuss semantics with DaReaperMan in DMs to avoid misinformation however.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, stomp FRA then.

I'll discuss semantics with DaReaperMan in DMs to avoid misinformation however.

I genuinely don't really care I'm arguing because this is something I don't really get to argue about and I tend to believe I'm right on things lol

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, in what sense does Kakine have a will here then? Given he'd have a desire to defend something per SBA that'd imply that a mundane inanimate wall is not the best comparison.

Post Revival Kakine is basically an ability that was made to act like his original self, he is closer to a wall with powers than a sentient being like a Pokémon.

It is related to the kind of stuff Metagross and Alakazam upscale to intelligence-wise, and then from what Transform from Smeargle can copy capability/physiology-wise.

Why tho? I didn't see any mention of them there or anything about supercomputers.

Can you explain here? It does prevent a certain Fire-type Pokemon from using a Fire healing-move at least.

...

Kakine is Dark Matter, a type of subatomic particle only he can create and his power is about shaping and giving it properties.

Healing/regenerating for him is no different than a fire Pokémon attacking with a fire ball, you're not dealing with an RPG character with abilities that are split and categorized, he has a single thing that has multiple applications.

 

[deonment]

Why tho? I didn't see any mention of them there or anything about supercomputers.

Metagross (and Mega Metagross) actually do have supercomputer statements of its own

Metagross has four brains in total. Combined, the four brains can breeze through difficult calculations faster than a supercomputer. This Pokémon can float in the air by tucking in its four legs.
Metagross has four brains that are joined by a complex neural network. As a result of integration, this Pokémon is smarter than a supercomputer.
It analyzes its opponents with more accuracy than a supercomputer, which enables it to calmly back them into a corner.
Its intellect surpasses its previous level, resulting in battles so cruel, they'll make you want to cover your eyes.

And it can transform into these mons, but considering the anime examples we have of Ditto (and Mew to a lesser extent), it doesn't actually affect the mind/intellect, which makes sense considering its part of the/is the spirit, which is something not rooted in the body

 

[Bobsican]

Post Revival Kakine is basically an ability that was made to act like his original self, he is closer to a wall with powers than a sentient being like a Pokémon.

Well, Transform does work on inanimate objects, but refer to the last reply I've done to you here.

Why tho? I didn't see any mention of them there or anything about supercomputers.

Given this case involves a resulgar computer in lack of more details a supercomputer would upscale by definition.

...

Kakine is Dark Matter, a type of subatomic particle only he can create and his power is about shaping and giving it properties.

Healing/regenerating for him is no different than a fire Pokémon attacking with a fire ball, you're not dealing with an RPG character with abilities that are split and categorized, he has a single thing that has multiple applications.

Yeah, got no feats to mimic that sort of stuff to begin with in that case.

what's it gonna copy with Sketch? How to walk towards the opponent menacingly??? You're dealing with passive effects here lol

And has literally anyone tried this? Pretty poor move to just trust a wiki 100% on a specific intaction like this

Here, yeah, passives would require either Transform or Role Play, in theory anyways given the above.

Ever hear of this strange little move called "Dark Void"? It's Darkrai's signature move...

Smeargle can't use it anymore since Gen 7 (more specifically it only works while having Darkrai's physiology, but it can still learn it for the purposes of Imprison).

And Smeargle got it nerfed to borderline uselessness and had it taken away from the things it could sketch. Frailty isn't an argument for a pokémon to not get a guaranteed switch out. Because people will apsolutely want that. Gonna be blunt, 1v1 isn't the official format for competitive Pokémon either so...

Not really if it can't do much back compared to what other Pokemon could do with similar positioning (such as gaining a setup opportunity, which Smeargle can't use as the other stuff that's usable in-game has significantly higher stats to quickly dispatch it, let alone hitting like a wet noodle relatively), the 4 move limit in-game quite limits its options to avoid it from just invalidating nearly all Pokemon with Imprison.

 

[deonment]

Well, Transform does work on inanimate objects, but refer to the last paragraph I've done anyways.

(wrong link)

 

[Bobsican]

Oops, meant this (see Gold dex entry).