Cirno's Ice Feat

[Agnaa]

I can see where this calc comes from, but having a closer look I don't think it's actually legit.

A few pages beforehand, we get a shot of the surrounding area, and we can see a hill near them, before Cirno performs the feat.

In the panel being calculated, we actually see a decent, but much smaller amount of ice closer to Cirno and the other fairies. It's just really weird presentation-wise for the part closer to her and the others to be so much smaller than the larger amount being used for this calculation. Plus, the part being referenced does kinda look like a hill; it's not quite like the ice we see elsewhere.

And, it's kinda weird presentation-wise how panels of her performing the feat focus on her freezing flowers and small animals; if she made a massive mound, why not highlight that?

Performing that feat made her pass out, so regardless, it shouldn't scale to her typical attacks, only to full exertion. Plus, the profiles should justify why there's Striking Strength and Durability scaling from this non-physical invocation of magic.

If these reasons suck, or if there's other profiles these changes would effect, or if there's other good feats that could replace this, please let me know :3

 

[Agnaa]

@Psychomaster35 @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara You two might be invested in this

 

[Psychomaster35]

I was told that Cirno's getting massively upgraded (Up to High 3-A) alongside various other characters as part of some mass revisions anyway, so this would be redundant to discuss.

 

[Agnaa]

At base? Wew. If someone can confirm that, then I'll close this thread until that gets accepted/rejected. If it gets rejected, remind me, and I'll re-open this.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I was told that Cirno's getting massively upgraded (Up to High 3-A) alongside various other characters as part of some mass revisions anyway, so this would be redundant to discuss.

At base? Wew. If someone can confirm that, then I'll close this thread until that gets accepted/rejected. If it gets rejected, remind me, and I'll re-open this.

No, not in base. She'll still scale to 8-B in base (I hope so, anyways). High 3-A is for her tanned form scaling to multiple statements of becoming infinitely stronger via borrowing a small fraction of a 2-C character's own power. That upgrade's a long way off, anyways. I'll work on a reply to the OP in a bit, but I just wanted to clarify this.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I can see where this calc comes from, but having a closer look I don't think it's actually legit.

A few pages beforehand, we get a shot of the surrounding area, and we can see a hill near them, before Cirno performs the feat.

This was accounted for in the original upgrade thread. It downgrades the feat by less than a full ton.

In the panel being calculated, we actually see a decent, but much smaller amount of ice closer to Cirno and the other fairies. It's just really weird presentation-wise for the part closer to her and the others to be so much smaller than the larger amount being used for this calculation. Plus, the part being referenced does kinda look like a hill; it's not quite like the ice we see elsewhere.

I disagree. The previous page gives us a clear view of the surrounding area, and there's nothing that you could reasonably interpret as being the same as the hill we see later on. The thing is over 25 feet tall, and the fairies don't move from their position while Cirno freezes everything; If there was anything that big in the immediate vicinity, we would've seen it in the overhead shot. Other depictions of the same location also don't show this mysterious giant hill despite it dwarfing everything in the area; We only ever see it after Cirno performs her freezing feat.

I also think the hill looks similar enough to the ice but tbh it's kinda ambiguous

And, it's kinda weird presentation-wise how panels of her performing the feat focus on her freezing flowers and small animals; if she made a massive mound, why not highlight that?

The very first part of that panel is of the ice spreading over the surface of the lake, though? And then the bottom part shows fragments of ice that are taller than Clownpiece (who, while pretty short, is still within human height range), so I feel like this is focusing on only a small part of the evidence provided and not the full picture. I guess I understand the core point of "we don't see the hill being created", but we don't really see the ice centered on the fairies being created, either, and you don't seem to have a problem with attributing that to Cirno. The fact remains that the hill only shows up after Cirno freezes everything, so I think it's just a matter of Occam's Razor at that point.

Performing that feat made her pass out, so regardless, it shouldn't scale to her typical attacks, only to full exertion. Plus, the profiles should justify why there's Striking Strength and Durability scaling from this non-physical invocation of magic.

The feat was performed in mid-summer, where Cirno is far weaker than normal (since fairies are living embodiments of nature, and get stronger or weaker depending on factors like the season or the state of natural phenomena). We literally see her melting and dying like, 2 pages beforehand, so it's more reasonable to assume her exhaustion came from her near-death state.

As for physical scaling, Cirno freezes things by absorbing the heat from her surroundings and taking it into her own body, so that might help prove there's some level of physical scaling? That aside, Touhou has an accepted UES in the form of spiritual energy (page is heavily outdated but all the information relevant to this thread is fine). Spiritual energy is the essence of one's physical and mental characteristics, empowering one's attacks as they gain more spirit (including physical attacks such as sword slashes or throwing knives), and it is considered equivalent to one's stamina. Everyone in the verse has access to and uses spiritual energy since it's a fundamental component in the usage of magic (which everyone uses), and like. It's their soul, they need that shit for reasons I hope are obvious.

If this isn't convincing, then there are some backup feats we could use. Individual fairies are consistently able to create localized thunderstorms, and can survive being struck by natural lightning whilst flying. Cirno herself has multiple decent ice creation feats in one of the fighting games (including freezing people solid, so 9-A at worst). Characters that are stronger than Cirno but upscale from her calc also have feats like surviving a point blank explosion (high 8-C, though there was a bit of contention over that) or causing spontaneous combustion in buildings (220 tons, which... really doesn't feel right but I ain't enough of a mathematician to say for sure). I'll gladly expand upon any of these feats, if you deem it necessary.
really, this part is just me begging for someone to calc all the extra feats i have in my backlog

I hope this clarifies some of the issues you had. Let me know if you need anything else.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

By the way, I guess I should also mention I'm fine with downgrading all the characters weaker than Cirno (everyone who isn't Cirno herself or being scaled to 8-B+) to the next best thing, which might be 8-C by my estimates. Cirno is consistently depicted as being one of the strongest fairies out there, so I don't think the fodder fairies that regularly get blown up in the mainline games have any busienss scaling to her even if you ignore her passing out at the very end. I was gonna wait until the big revisions before touching stats, but fuck it, may as well tackle it here while it's relevant.

Also,

:3

I disagree with the thread for this alone.

 

[Agnaa]

This was accounted for in the original upgrade thread. It downgrades the feat by less than a full ton.

I disagree. The previous page gives us a clear view of the surrounding area, and there's nothing that you could reasonably interpret as being the same as the hill we see later on. The thing is over 25 feet tall, and the fairies don't move from their position while Cirno freezes everything; If there was anything that big in the immediate vicinity, we would've seen it in the overhead shot. Other depictions of the same location also don't show this mysterious giant hill despite it dwarfing everything in the area; We only ever see it after Cirno performs her freezing feat.

I also think the hill looks similar enough to the ice but tbh it's kinda ambiguous

Ehh, those other depictions don't show anything at all, including the hill that you accounted for.

It feels like it's more likely to just be inconsistently drawing the size of the hill, rather than covering the hill with ice to make it that much bigger. Is essentially my Occam's Razor-ish view.

The very first part of that panel is of the ice spreading over the surface of the lake, though? And then the bottom part shows fragments of ice that are taller than Clownpiece (who, while pretty short, is still within human height range), so I feel like this is focusing on only a small part of the evidence provided and not the full picture. I guess I understand the core point of "we don't see the hill being created", but we don't really see the ice centered on the fairies being created, either, and you don't seem to have a problem with attributing that to Cirno. The fact remains that the hill only shows up after Cirno freezes everything, so I think it's just a matter of Occam's Razor at that point.

Eh, I think we kinda do see the ice centered on the fairies be created; we see ice pop up around them to some extent.

(I did notice the lake freezing stuff after I posted, but it seemed a bit tangential so I didn't mention it)

The feat was performed in mid-summer, where Cirno is far weaker than normal (since fairies are living embodiments of nature, and get stronger or weaker depending on factors like the season or the state of natural phenomena). We literally see her melting and dying like, 2 pages beforehand, so it's more reasonable to assume her exhaustion came from her near-death state.

That does make things ambiguous, but I still wouldn't be solid on scaling it to her ordinary casual attacks. But that does make such a high-end more useful in matches (she probably wouldn't collapse if she exerted herself that much during winter).

While I'd lean towards removing this, I wouldn't surprised if this ended up just being put to likely/possibly.

As for physical scaling, Cirno freezes things by absorbing the heat from her surroundings and taking it into her own body, so that might help prove there's some level of physical scaling? That aside, Touhou has an accepted UES in the form of spiritual energy (page is heavily outdated but all the information relevant to this thread is fine). Spiritual energy is the essence of one's physical and mental characteristics, empowering one's attacks as they gain more spirit (including physical attacks such as sword slashes or throwing knives), and it is considered equivalent to one's stamina. Everyone in the verse has access to and uses spiritual energy since it's a fundamental component in the usage of magic (which everyone uses), and like. It's their soul, they need that shit for reasons I hope are obvious.

If this isn't convincing, then there are some backup feats we could use. Individual fairies are consistently able to create localized thunderstorms, and can survive being struck by natural lightning whilst flying. Cirno herself has multiple decent ice creation feats in one of the fighting games (including freezing people solid, so 9-A at worst). Characters that are stronger than Cirno but upscale from her calc also have feats like surviving a point blank explosion (high 8-C, though there was a bit of contention over that) or causing spontaneous combustion in buildings (220 tons, which... really doesn't feel right but I ain't enough of a mathematician to say for sure). I'll gladly expand upon any of these feats, if you deem it necessary.
really, this part is just me begging for someone to calc all the extra feats i have in my backlog

I'm a bit busy to dig into the evidence for those right now (should have more time tonight, or in 4 days). But from a quick glance at the text itself, those don't seem like they'd support SS scaling, but it would support Dura scaling even though we probably shouldn't let heat feats work that way.

And for the support feats, small thunderstorms and ice creation seem promising. Feats from those stronger don't seem promising, since they're stronger 3:

I hope this clarifies some of the issues you had. Let me know if you need anything else.

Don't have another great place to say this, but I should mention that the calc, regardless, should be lower, since it doesn't account for the timeframe of multiple panels; we're meant to discount energy output for feats longer than 1 second. Taking 2 days to laser through a wall is less impressive than doing so in 1 second, ofc.

By the way, I guess I should also mention I'm fine with downgrading all the characters weaker than Cirno (everyone who isn't Cirno herself or being scaled to 8-B+) to the next best thing, which might be 8-C by my estimates. Cirno is consistently depicted as being one of the strongest fairies out there, so I don't think the fodder fairies that regularly get blown up in the mainline games have any busienss scaling to her even if you ignore her passing out at the very end. I was gonna wait until the big revisions before touching stats, but fuck it, may as well tackle it here while it's relevant.

Sounds good!

Also,

I disagree with the thread for this alone.

3:

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ehh, those other depictions don't show anything at all, including the hill that you accounted for.


It feels like it's more likely to just be inconsistently drawing the size of the hill, rather than covering the hill with ice to make it that much bigger. Is essentially my Occam's Razor-ish view.

Psycho's updated calc puts the small hill at like, 3% the size of the hill we see at the end. I'll gladly account for artistic inconsistencies here and there (they're not all that uncommon in Touhou manga), but saying a hill accidentally jumped up to being over 30x larger in the span of like 2 pages feels like too much of a stretch for me to accept it.

I've also never been particularly convinced that the small hill and ice hill are the same, since it doesn't make sense with what we're shown (the small hill is on the shoreline while the ice hill is on dry land), but it's whatever.

That does make things ambiguous, but I still wouldn't be solid on scaling it to her ordinary casual attacks. But that does make such a high-end more useful in matches (she probably wouldn't collapse if she exerted herself that much during winter).

While I'd lean towards removing this, I wouldn't surprised if this ended up just being put to likely/possibly.

I'm not all that familiar with our standards on this; If someone performs an attack on death's door, and the exertion from that attack causes them to collapse, do we not usually scale that attack to their base statistics?

I'd be fine with a likely/possibly rating if that's the general consensus.

I'm a bit busy to dig into the evidence for those right now (should have more time tonight, or in 4 days). But from a quick glance at the text itself, those don't seem like they'd support SS scaling, but it would support Dura scaling even though we probably shouldn't let heat feats work that way.

The scan about Cirno absorbing heat, or the spirit stuff? If it's the latter, then I don't know why it wouldn't be scaled to SS. More spiritual energy = make sword hit harderer, I don't think it gets much more straightforward than that. The other stuff just supports the idea it's tied to physicals, and the basic idea that it's the pool of energy that fuels physical and magical actions alike.

And for the support feats, small thunderstorms and ice creation seem promising. Feats from those stronger don't seem promising, since they're stronger 3:

Very nice, I'd be happy to discuss the specifics of the thunderstorm feats at some point since there's not really a concrete way to determine their size (best I could do was this). The feats for stronger characters would just replace the 8-B+ upscaling they're stuck with now, so they don't get downgraded to whatever Cirno ends up scaling to.

Don't have another great place to say this, but I should mention that the calc, regardless, should be lower, since it doesn't account for the timeframe of multiple panels; we're meant to discount energy output for feats longer than 1 second. Taking 2 days to laser through a wall is less impressive than doing so in 1 second, ofc.

Clownpiece was caught off guard by everything freezing over; I think it was clearly intended for Cirno's feat to be a very sudden act, especially since her specialty is flash-freezing (pretty much all of her feats and descriptions of her ability either show or describe the freezing process as happening "instantly"). Also everyone in this scene is relativistic at worst so it should be under a second tbhhhh

3:

:3c