Chronoverse Back to Tier 1?

[OnsokunoSonic]

Hello, I hope those who read this CRT and be respectful to it have a nice day.

So this is a CRT attempting to put back Lavos to tier 1, though this is more of a 'asking for an input' type of CRT but these are the arguments I'm gonna put.

Special thanks to @StrymULTRA for helping me out in this revision.

Cosmology

The Multiverse:
First of all, the Chrono Verse i.e Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, and Radical Dreamers. Operates on something called the Many World Interpretation Theory. It is said that there's a universe for each observers and that the amount of universes are equivalent to the amount of observers.




It begins at 1:34. Enhasa essentially said that there are a 2-B amount of universes. The nature of the multiverse is also elaborated futher on Chrono Cross, where it is said that the same people or life forms can exist within different space times.

But it doesn't stop there, because the multiverse is way bigger than that. But first we need to talk about 'dreams'.
In the same video above, right here. There's an NPC that said:

Zzz...zzz....
Truths exist in dreams.
The world exists in me.
Zzz...

What's he essentially saying is that there's a world inside of him, inside his dreams and that the world is encompassed by dreams. Now to solidify this, there is a statement from the retranslated version where the NPC said this:

Zzz, zzz.
It is within dreams that there is reality.
It is within me that there is the universe

Which is a more blatant statement for dreams encompassing the universe.
But the universes contain more than that, because we have the Queen of Zeal stating that there are multiple temporal dimensions.



Begins at 35:10. Now, I know that the Queen doesn't state anything about temporal dimensions and all. Well, that's because it's stated in the retranslation of Chrono Trigger. In it, we have this.

This Black Dream flows across all temporal dimensions
While waiting for that time when Lavos-sama will awaken...

This explains why the Black Omen (or the Black Dream) is capable of being accessed throughout various ages. Except the prehistoric age because Lavos first appeared there and mess time and space up.

So the singular universe should be Low 2-C or Low 1-C (5D) due to it containing multiple temporal dimensions.
And the multiverse is 2-A or Low 1-C (5D).

Sea of Zurvan:
In one of the endings for Radical Dreamers. Kid fall into a sea, a very interesting sea...




Begins at 21:34. In this ending, we see that Kid fall into a sea where-quoting her "The world drifts and time is a blur..." this sea is stated to be endless in size. She described this place is where "Time begins and ends.... This is where all life found peace". She then continues and see...something.
She saw herself as a baby with her mother, and...countless worlds overlapping with infinite dreams plays out.

"If only I could free myself of all my burdens and sleep here... In this sea of dreams..."

To sum up what happened, Kid fall into this sea that encompassed all of reality and the spaces between them, a bigger space than the infinite of universes in existence. To support this, in the good ending of Chrono Cross after you beat Lavos and freed Schala we got this:




Starts at 13:34. Schala, a reliable source since she's was once with Lavos that eats dimensions or dreams. State that perhaps everything is only a dream, meaning that dreams are indeed what encompassed the universes at is bigger than it. Moving on she then states that everything (dreams) will return to the sea, this sea is called Zurvan. The Sea of Dreams, Zurvan.

So with all of that, we say that the Sea of Zurvan is a space bigger than the infinite universes, with it being described as endless. This should mean that the Sea of Zurvan is a higher 2-A, or even a 6D space, since it encompassed the universes that posses multiple temporal dimensions. And based on several CRT I've read before, having a bigger than 2-A space and encompassing the spaces between them has to be higher dimensional.

The Darkness Beyond Time:
In post end game for Chrono Trigger, there's an enemy, an enemy of great power that rises from the borders of time. A fearsome presence that Crono and friends will fought after going through the Dimensional Vortex and achieving a great power. Before fighting this fearsome presence, we see Magus. Whether it's the Magus of our world or other is something we don't know. He then explained where are we. He described this place as "Where Lavos is no more. This is the future where we've defeated him." He then said that a foe has arisen here, in this endless expanse that is Time's Eclipse.

We then followed him, to see a familiar face, actually two. Lavos and...Schala? This will continue on Chrono Cross, but we will end it here for now.

In Chrono Cross. After defeating the Dragon God...to be specific the avatar of the Time Devourer (Lavos). Belthasar appeared and gives us some interesting statements:




Begins at 1:26:12. Belthasar stated that the Dragon God is only a 'quasi-existent', a temporary form that the real Dragon God uses in order in to appear in this world. But the real Dragon God was consumed by Lavos in the other side of the dimensional darkness. This place is then described as the place where time become divided.

Belthasar then continued, he said that Lavos will consume everything, every space-time if he's left to become strong enough to consume everything in the verse, which would include the Chrono Cross. In order to stop this, Belthasar then gave an item to Serge, the legendary Chrono Trigger (or the Time Egg in this case), a device that transcend time and space.

That place, is also described to have no beginning and no end.

So in short, The Darkness of Time is a place of nothingness that exist beyond the the multiverse and the Sea of Zurvan. Since Lavos is capable of devouring all of existence from that place, we can conclude that it exist beyond anything in creation, if Lavos manages to devour all of space-time then the world will turn into that.

TL;DR for the Cosmology:

The universe: Low 2-C or Low 1-C (5D)
The multiverse: 2-A or Low 1-C (5D)
The Sea of Zurvan: Low 1-C (5D/6D)
The Darkness Beyond Time: Low 1-C (6D) or 1-C (7D)

Who Scales?
You know, I don't wanna tackle this right now since this thread is mainly focusing on the cosmology and making Lavos back to tier 1. But we're just gonna spit out the obvious.

1. Lavos. All of his keys from Dream Devourer and onwards.
2. Serge. His base key and with the Chrono Cross. Serge is capable of forcing Lavos back to retreat to somewhere unknown in the Bad Ending. And with the Chrono Cross he should be higher.

Speed will also be upgraded for these two, starting from Lavos's Dream Devourer's key that consume dreams from another dimension as his starting move, which mean he consumes the Epoch that travels through time at full speed. Though I can see this as a possibly Immeasureable

Those who have different opinion might express them in the comments.

Thank you for reading this far.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm neutral about Low 1-C, but I never agreed downgrading Dream Devourer from the 2-A rating; Magus literally says, "There are as many worlds as there are possibilities" combined with there being consistent statements in Chrono Cross that there are "An infinite number of possibilities". Also, Dream Devourer had statements about "Being powerful enough to end all existence" and what not.

 

[Jinsye]

I think there's an argument for tier 1 Chrono, but I'm not gonna be the one to argue it, chief.

I'm not entirely sure about using Zeal's statement, could very well just mean something akin to 'temporal spaces' or whatnot. The Black Omen exists in many different time periods so it existing in multiple spaces does make sense.

Definitively scaling Lavos to the Sea of Dreams/Darkness Beyond Time outside of his hax is also something I've been pretty iffy on for a while. Balthasar pretty blatantly states that he'll devour "all space-time continua", and considering that the Sea of Dreams and the Darkness Beyond Time are definitively not part of the space-time continua, it's unknown if "all of existence" refers to those and if he'll actually destroy those entire constructs. He is the Dream Devourer though, so there's a case for him affecting those.

You could make it a "possible" or "likely" rating if you wanted to.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I take a small nap and this is what happens, huh?

Well then...

For first, for anyone who wonders, the source of the retranslation is here, which is in short a version which uses a way more literal translation compared to the games, comparing the official localized version, kanjis, and then the literal version.

Now that we've put this aside...

2-A

There is Tia statement saying she saw infinite possibilities in her dream to support what Serge saw.

Low 1-C

If the individual universes are 5D/Low 1-C, then the Sea of Dreams should be upgraded to 6D as it's bigger than infinite 5D things, and it's even the origin and end of time, which would include said temporal dimensions.

1-C

Disagree on this one, given that the DBT is only beyond the conventional space-time in the meaning that it is non-existent, as it's the place where timelines after being deleted go to rot and everything gets reduced to nothing. And it's not superior in nature to Zurvan, and thus is not supported from the FAQ.

So I disagree on that.

Who Scales?
You know, I don't wanna tackle this right now since this thread is mainly focusing on the cosmology and making Lavos back to tier 1. But we're just gonna spit out the obvious.

1. Lavos. All of his keys from Dream Devourer and onwards.
2. Serge. His base key and with the Chrono Cross. Serge is capable of forcing Lavos back to retreat to somewhere unknown in the Bad Ending. And with the Chrono Cross he should be higher.

You said in DMs that we are working on the haxes later. We should work on that later, 1st we deal with cosmology, then the rest + the hax in the Part II.

Besides that I agree on 6D Cosmology.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Definitively scaling Lavos to the Sea of Dreams/Darkness Beyond Time outside of his hax is also something I've been pretty iffy on for a while. Balthasar pretty blatantly states that he'll devour "all space-time continua", and considering that the Sea of Dreams and the Darkness Beyond Time are definitively not part of the space-time continua, it's unknown if "all of existence" refers to those and if he'll actually destroy those entire constructs. He is the Dream Devourer though, so there's a case for him affecting those.

You can see him erasing multiple Dreams in Plural as the first attack, and Dreams are individual universes.

So there's no reason to assume he wouldn't devour all the remaining infinite universes, especially when Schala is the one saying the nature of the dreams.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I'm neutral about Low 1-C, but I never agreed downgrading Dream Devourer from the 2-A rating; Magus literally says, "There are as many worlds as there are possibilities" combined with there being consistent statements in Chrono Cross that there are "An infinite number of possibilities". Also, Dream Devourer had statements about "Being powerful enough to end all existence" and what not.

Yeah he should never been downgraded from that, considering he's already gonna destroy everything if not because Schala's half self stopping it.

I'm not entirely sure about using Zeal's statement, could very well just mean something akin to 'temporal spaces' or whatnot. The Black Omen exists in many different time periods so it existing in multiple spaces does make sense.

It could also work if it flows from the temporal dimensions itself. And you know, qualify for tier 1.

Definitively scaling Lavos to the Sea of Dreams/Darkness Beyond Time outside of his hax is also something I've been pretty iffy on for a while. Balthasar pretty blatantly states that he'll devour "all space-time continua", and considering that the Sea of Dreams and the Darkness Beyond Time are definitively not part of the space-time continua, it's unknown if "all of existence" refers to those and if he'll actually destroy those entire constructs. He is the Dream Devourer though, so there's a case for him affecting those.

Lavos may not scales to the Darkness Beyond Time I can understand that, hence his 1-C will only be from his range. But Lavos HAS to scale to the Sea of Dreams, because in order to even kill him, Serge has to use the Chrono Cross that unifies dreams. His first attack as the Dream Devourer is consuming dreams. His evolved state shouldn't be weaker than that.

You said in DMs that we are working on the haxes later. We should work on that later, 1st we deal with cosmology, then the rest + the hax in the Part II.

Yes, we'll deal with scaling chain and hax shenanigans later.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm not entirely sure about using Zeal's statement, could very well just mean something akin to 'temporal spaces' or whatnot. The Black Omen exists in many different time periods so it existing in multiple spaces does make sense.

Aren't temporal dimensions just, you know... time? According to the Wiki FAQ they're just the timeline but repeated in snapshots like space in snapshots in Low 2-C.

 

[Jinsye]

Aren't temporal dimensions just, you know... time? According to the Wiki FAQ they're just the timeline but repeated in snapshots like space in snapshots in Low 2-C.

My main argument isn't really the quote is wrong, but since Japanese is a weird language it doesn't necessarily mean a specific temporal dimension. I suppose there's the statement of Lavos "throwing the world off of it's temporal axes" but it's still not exactly clear.

 

[Jinsye]

Lavos may not scales to the Darkness Beyond Time I can understand that, hence his 1-C will only be from his range. But Lavos HAS to scale to the Sea of Dreams, because in order to even kill him, Serge has to use the Chrono Cross that unifies dreams. His first attack as the Dream Devourer is consuming dreams. His evolved state shouldn't be weaker than that.

As far as the wiki is concerned, dreams are generally concepts. You can hold higher tier conceptual hax without having higher AP yourself. Lavos would need to affect the entire Sea of Dreams at once to qualify and not just individual dreams themselves.

Also I don't remember if the Chrono Cross actually does that. The scans I have doesn't specifically mention it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

My main argument isn't really the quote is wrong, but since Japanese is a weird language it doesn't necessarily mean a specific temporal dimension. I suppose there's the statement of Lavos "throwing the world off of it's temporal axes" but it's still not exactly clear.

But axes are literally dimensions though? Like spatial axes are spatial dimensions here.

As far as the wiki is concerned, dreams are generally concepts. You can hold higher tier conceptual hax without having higher AP yourself. Lavos would need to affect the entire Sea of Dreams at once to qualify and not just individual dreams themselves.

Also I don't remember if the Chrono Cross actually does that. The scans I have doesn't specifically mention it.

We are going to scale things later. First is about the cosmology, as I have better arguments, but I feel like I should do in another CRT as this one is messy already.

 

[deonment]

Begins at 35:10. Now, I know that the Queen doesn't state anything about temporal dimensions and all. Well, that's because it's stated in the retranslation of Chrono Trigger. In it, we have this.


This explains why the Black Omen (or the Black Dream) is capable of being accessed throughout various ages. Except the prehistoric age because Lavos first appeared there and mess time and space up.

So the singular universe should be Low 2-C or Low 1-C (5D) due to it containing multiple temporal dimensions.
And the multiverse is 2-A or Low 1-C (5D).

There are other translations of this that do not end up meaning temporal dimensions but even in the case in which it does, why would we assume it is speaking about temporal dimensions in the scientific context we know and why would we not assume it is attempting to speak about the different time periods which the black omen exists across which makes far more sense.

Sea of Zurvan:
In one of the endings for Radical Dreamers. Kid fall into a sea, a very interesting sea...



Begins at 21:34. In this ending, we see that Kid fall into a sea where-quoting her "The world drifts and time is a blur..." this sea is stated to be endless in size. She described this place is where "Time begins and ends.... This is where all life found peace". She then continues and see...something.
She saw herself as a baby with her mother, and...countless worlds overlapping with infinite dreams plays out.

"If only I could free myself of all my burdens and sleep here... In this sea of dreams..."

To sum up what happened, Kid fall into this sea that encompassed all of reality and the spaces between them, a bigger space than the infinite of universes in existence. To support this, in the good ending of Chrono Cross after you beat Lavos and freed Schala we got this:



Starts at 13:34. Schala, a reliable source since she's was once with Lavos that eats dimensions or dreams. State that perhaps everything is only a dream, meaning that dreams are indeed what encompassed the universes at is bigger than it. Moving on she then states that everything (dreams) will return to the sea, this sea is called Zurvan. The Sea of Dreams, Zurvan.

So with all of that, we say that the Sea of Zurvan is a space bigger than the infinite universes, with it being described as endless. This should mean that the Sea of Zurvan is a higher 2-A, or even a 6D space, since it encompassed the universes that posses multiple temporal dimensions. And based on several CRT I've read before, having a bigger than 2-A space and encompassing the spaces between them has to be higher dimensional.

Most of the evidence here just points to the already well-supported fact of dreams in chrono being the fundamental essence of which all things are made out of, you would have a better chance for getting tier 1 via its nature of it being beyond time along with those who enter it being able to view all of space and time at once imo.

The Darkness Beyond Time:
In post end game for Chrono Trigger, there's an enemy, an enemy of great power that rises from the borders of time. A fearsome presence that Crono and friends will fought after going through the Dimensional Vortex and achieving a great power. Before fighting this fearsome presence, we see Magus. Whether it's the Magus of our world or other is something we don't know. He then explained where are we. He described this place as "Where Lavos is no more. This is the future where we've defeated him." He then said that a foe has arisen here, in this endless expanse that is Time's Eclipse.

We then followed him, to see a familiar face, actually two. Lavos and...Schala? This will continue on Chrono Cross, but we will end it here for now.

In Chrono Cross. After defeating the Dragon God...to be specific the avatar of the Time Devourer (Lavos). Belthasar appeared and gives us some interesting statements:



Begins at 1:26:12. Belthasar stated that the Dragon God is only a 'quasi-existent', a temporary form that the real Dragon God uses in order in to appear in this world. But the real Dragon God was consumed by Lavos in the other side of the dimensional darkness. This place is then described as the place where time become divided.

Belthasar then continued, he said that Lavos will consume everything, every space-time if he's left to become strong enough to consume everything in the verse, which would include the Chrono Cross. In order to stop this, Belthasar then gave an item to Serge, the legendary Chrono Trigger (or the Time Egg in this case), a device that transcend time and space.

That place, is also described to have no beginning and no end.

So in short, The Darkness of Time is a place of nothingness that exist beyond the the multiverse and the Sea of Zurvan. Since Lavos is capable of devouring all of existence from that place, we can conclude that it exist beyond anything in creation, if Lavos manages to devour all of space-time then the world will turn into that.

no, just no, this doesn't work at all for reasons that people stated above

Speed will also be upgraded for these two, starting from Lavos's Dream Devourer's key that consume dreams from another dimension as his starting move, which mean he consumes the Epoch that travels through time at full speed. Though I can see this as a possibly Immeasureable

I would doubt this because if Lavos deletes the timeline the epoch goes too, there is no reason to believe he needs to specifically reach the speed of the epoch to devour it when his AoE would let him do so

We are going to scale things later. First is about the cosmology, as I have better arguments, but I feel like I should do in another CRT as this one is messy already.

I agree with Strym here, we can deal with the cosmology first, and leave the scaling for another thread because this thread will be ending up quite long by simply just discussing the cosmology, no need to also bloat it with the who scales where stuff

 

[StrymULTRA]

I would doubt this because if Lavos deletes the timeline the epoch goes too, there is no reason to believe he needs to specifically reach the speed of the epoch to devour it when his AoE would let him do so

Thing is that dreams contain universes, which would contain a version of the Epoch.

Lavos has a very good power mimicry which allows him to copy the powers of the things on the Earth from across all eras, even those which did not exist yet, and covers both organic and inorganic beings.

The argument is that Lavos has immeasurable because of him absorbing the Epoch in itself and thus getting its powers.

Most of the evidence here just points to the already well-supported fact of dreams in chrono being the fundamental essence of which all things are made out of, you would have a better chance for getting tier 1 via its nature of it being beyond time along with those who enter it being able to view all of space and time at once imo.

Zurvan is the place where everything will eventually return and where time itself begins and ends. It's not just a place where you see universes, is a place that infinitely dwarfs a single 4D/5D continuum, making it Tier 1 like Kingdom Hearts or Bayonetta.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Besides, note that myself do not completely agree with the Multiple Temporal Dimensions, but going from the FAQ, Zurvan is definitely Higher-Dimensional compared to the multiverse.

So I can see a "Low 1-C, likely far higher" to cover both interpretations of 5D or 6D, depending on the dimensionality of the multiverse.

 

[deonment]

Thing is that dreams contain universes, which would contain a version of the Epoch.

Lavos has a very good power mimicry which allows him to copy the powers of the things on the Earth from across all eras, even those which did not exist yet, and covers both organic and inorganic beings.

The argument is that Lavos has immeasurable because of him absorbing the Epoch in itself and thus getting its powers.

They don't dreams don't contain universes, they are the substance from which universes, are made, they are to chrono what data is to digimon or what energy/matter is to irl, the fundamental substance in the verse of which all things are made.

I mean, just use that argument instead of trying to say that since lavos can eat dreams he should scale to the epoch for ???

Zurvan is the place where everything will eventually return and where time itself begins and ends. It's not just a place where you see universes, is a place that infinitely dwarfs a single 4D/5D continuum, making it Tier 1 like Kingdom Hearts or Bayonetta.

I am not saying it is simply a place where you can see the universe, I am saying that instead of trying to argue it contains the multiverse as the only argument for it (which was what the OP was doing), I was saying that instead of the kinda wack argument of saying it is tier one ONLY because it contains the argument the OP should have also brought up the fact that Zurvan transcends time and also that all of space and time can be seen at once from it as that would be a better argument for tier 1 Zurvan.

 

[StrymULTRA]

They don't dreams don't contain universes

They do.

I mean, just use that argument instead of trying to say that since lavos can eat dreams he should scale to the epoch for ???

Because the cosmology follows MWI, and thus infinite versions of Epoch exist? Again, Lavos copies the properties of the things he absorbs, of course, he definitely scales from it lmao.

I am not saying it is simply a place where you can see the universe, I am saying that instead of trying to argue it contains the multiverse as the only argument for it (which was what the OP was doing), I was saying that instead of the kinda wack argument of saying it is tier one ONLY because it contains the argument the OP should have also brought up the fact that Zurvan transcends time and also that all of space and time can be seen at once from it as that would be a better argument for tier 1 Zurvan.

This counter-argument is very baseless and is against the "it's the origin and end of time" statement lmao.

 

[StrymULTRA]

A thing that can help the argument of dreams containing universes is Serge straight up calling the universes as him seeing "infinite dreams" or Tia seeing all the infinite possibilities in her dream now that I think.

 

[deonment]

This counter-argument is very baseless and is against the "it's the origin and end of time" statement lmao.

I'm not arguing against Zurvan being tier 1, what I am saying is
The OP was only saying that Zurvan was tier 1 based on encompassing the multiverse, which is not normally enough
I'm saying that the OP should have instead also argued/mentioned Zurvan transcending time and viewing all of time and space at once, as that would reinforce the argument for tier 1.

Because the cosmology follows MWI, and thus infinite versions of Epoch exist? Again, Lavos copies the properties of the things he absorbs, of course, he definitely scales from it lmao.

Please carefully read the text I am typing, I am not arguing against immeasurable lavos I am saying that, once again, the OP was using a bad argument, this time however you brought up a better argument in the form of lavos being able to copy the immeasurable speed from the Epoch, which I agree with him getting from that argument.

They do.

The universe is within space-time but that doesn't mean they aren't one and the same

A thing that can help the argument of dreams containing universes is Serge straight up calling the universes as him seeing "infinite dreams" or Tia seeing all the infinite possibilities in her dream now that I think.

I mean that just is stuff that would be saying dreams=universes rather than dreams>universes

 

[StrymULTRA]

The OP was only saying that Zurvan was tier 1 based on encompassing the multiverse, which is not normally enough

But it is? Being infinitely bigger than a x-dimensional thing is enough to be Higher D on this wiki.

And given Zurvan can hold infinite universes, it is bigger than a Low 2-C (or Low 1-C) universe.

I'm saying that the OP should have instead also argued/mentioned Zurvan transcending time and viewing all of time and space at once, as that would reinforce the argument for tier 1.

Well, more evidence is good ig.

I mean that just is stuff that would be saying dreams=universes rather than dreams>universes

Given the Sea of Dreams itself is the origin and end of reality, it's the latter.

It's even supported from the fact that everything happening is also a dream like the ones Serge/Tia saw (and Earth is confirmed to be indeed alive, as it was the one sending Dinopolis back in time to counter lavos sending Chronopolis to the past.

Another evidence of dreams > reality is the Dreamstone holding dreams, and has created concepts such as love and hate.

 

[deonment]

But it is? Being infinitely bigger than a x-dimensional thing is enough to be Higher D on this wiki.

And given Zurvan can hold infinite universes, it is bigger than a Low 2-C (or Low 1-C) universe.

yes if you can properly prove the thing in question is so, but just saying a thing in question encompasses something without any further context doesn't really mean anything since for example, my fist encompasses the air inside of it, but does it mean that it is of a higher order than said air? No, which was why I was saying OP needed to add more evidence

 

[StrymULTRA]

yes if you can properly prove the thing in question is so, but just saying a thing in question encompasses something without any further context doesn't really mean anything since for example, my fist encompasses the air inside of it, but does it mean that it is of a higher order than said air? No, which was why I was saying OP needed to add more evidence

Kingdom Hearts and Bayonetta became Low 1-C right because of this though.

So you're applying a double standard here.

 

[deonment]

Kingdom Hearts and Bayonetta became Low 1-C right because of this though.

So you're applying a double standard here.

I said without extra context, I'm saying the context which can make Zurvan Low 1-C doesn't apply
Let me say it again, I am not against Low 1-C Zurvan, im saying saying encompass with no extra context and no supporting evidence means jack all, which isn't the case here

 

[StrymULTRA]

Alright, I guess I was arguing over nothing smh...

So I can see a "Low 1-C, likely far higher" to cover both interpretations of 5D or 6D, depending on the dimensionality of the multiverse.

This is for the multiple temporal dimension thing.

 

[deonment]

Alright, I guess I was arguing over nothing smh...

Yes

This is for the multiple temporal dimension thing.

I still do find taking the multiple temporal dimensions stuff to be literal as sus instead of what the context implies it to be referring to instead (different time periods), but I will accept a possibility if the parties related are adamant about it being legit

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

There are other translations of this that do not end up meaning temporal dimensions but even in the case in which it does, why would we assume it is speaking about temporal dimensions in the scientific context we know and why would we not assume it is attempting to speak about the different time periods which the black omen exists across which makes far more sense.

Well, I guess it can mean two things. Maybe a possibly could work?

Most of the evidence here just points to the already well-supported fact of dreams in chrono being the fundamental essence of which all things are made out of, you would have a better chance for getting tier 1 via its nature of it being beyond time along with those who enter it being able to view all of space and time at once imo.

What I presented can work too since verse like Bayyonetta, and DMC uses this same argument. Though you have point, maybe I should include that too. Do you have the scans?

DBT stuff.

I feel like it's a higher tier, or at least a higher than baseline tier.

Maybe Low 1-C possibly higher...can work?

I would doubt this because if Lavos deletes the timeline the epoch goes too, there is no reason to believe he needs to specifically reach the speed of the epoch to devour it when his AoE would let him do so

The main point is Lavos devouring dimension that contain the Epoch, based on how the cosmology works, where the same things in multiple spacetimes can exist, this mean that Lavos has absorbed the power of the Epoch.

Yes, we'll deal with the scaling chain later, but the big bois need to updated if this goes through.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes, we'll deal with the scaling chain later, but the big bois need to updated if this goes through.

The cosmology goes 1st as I said.

I think the Dream Devourer, Post-Vortex Crono/Lucca/Marle, Dragon God, Harle, End Game Chrono Cross Cast and (ofc) the Time Devourer should all get the "Low 1-C, possibly far higher" in AP/Dura and "possibly Immeasurable" in speed, but this ain't the thread right now.

The only thing that currenlt gets upgraded is the Time Devourer as it is the only one thing scaling from cosmology rn.

Though you have point, maybe I should include that too. Do you have the scans?

I think they mean it holding both the origin and end of time.

I still do find taking the multiple temporal dimensions stuff to be literal as sus instead of what the context implies it to be referring to instead (different time periods), but I will accept a possibility if the parties related are adamant about it being legit

I think a justification can be something like this.

will eventually become Low Complex Multiverse level (In the distant future, when the bond between Schala and Lavos becomes complete, the Time Devourer will awaken to its final evolution, allowing it to consume all spacetime continua, of which there are infinite, and erase all of existence, which would include even Zurvan, the sea of dreams that is the origin of everything and holds both the beginning and end of time, as well as all the timelines inside of it), possibly far higher (Is it possible that the space-time that Zurvan holds is 5-D in nature as multiple temporal dimensions were mentioned, which would make Zurvan 6-D instead of 5-D, though is debatable whenever those are literal temporal dimensions or it just meant the Black Omen existing in different eras all at once)

 

[deonment]

will eventually become Low Complex Multiverse level (In the distant future, when the bond between Schala and Lavos becomes complete, the Time Devourer will awaken to its final evolution, allowing it to consume all spacetime continua, of which there are infinite, and erase all of existence, which would include even Zurvan, the sea of dreams that is the origin of everything and holds both the beginning and end of time, as well as all the timelines inside of it), possibly far higher (Is it possible that the space-time that Zurvan holds is 5-D in nature as multiple temporal dimensions were mentioned, which would make Zurvan 6-D instead of 5-D, though is debatable whenever those are literal temporal dimensions or it just meant the Black Omen existing in different eras all at once)

Yeah I'm fine with this if this gets passed

 

[StrymULTRA]

The reason why I want Immeasurable speed to be in the second part of the CRT is because there can be arguments which can apply it even to base Lavos, not necessairly just the Dream Devourer and up, given that Lavos' has a very busted Power Mimicry which has allowed him to store in its being every living being's DNA and has manipulated the evolution on the Earth, and allows him to use their Powers, like with Playable cast, things that did not exist yet (as Lavos' fight happens in 1999 AC but that robot was in 2300 AC), and yes, he copied also robots/machines, which would include also the Epoch.

So the argument exists, but it's quite controversial.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@CrimsonStarFallen @The_real_cal_howard @LephyrTheRevanchist @EliminatorVenom thoughts on the topic?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

My only problem is that some things seem to be extrapolated, but do make sense within the context of the verse, so am not really against anything.

Overall, I share the same opinions as Strym tho.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

This thread is quite silent for a tier 1 revision.

Btw this thread is also proposing on immeasurable speed for Lavos since he absorbed the Epoch in his Dream Devourer key, just to be clear on that. So I'll need some input on that too.

 

[Jinsye]

It's because Chrono isn't a verse thats talked about on the wiki more.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It used to have a lot more support, but a lot of people who supported it left the wiki and/or Vs debating in general. ProtoDude/ClassicGameGuys, FateAlbine, Cal back when he used to be more active, Matt back when he was a decent Admin, and Ultima before he got burned out by the constant Tier 1 debates and such. Amelia Lonelyheart also was someone I recall being a big fan, but she left and has no plans coming back sadly.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well...

We might make it a talk of also what the verse needs to be talked about in general.

The P&A for all profiles looks awful and Base Lavos being > Frozen Flame causes a fuckload of scaling issues.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

It used to have a lot more support, but a lot of people who supported it left the wiki and/or Vs debating in general. ProtoDude/ClassicGameGuys, FateAlbine, Cal back when he used to be more active, Matt back when he was a decent Admin, and Ultima before he got burned out by the constant Tier 1 debates and such. Amelia Lonelyheart also was someone I recall being a big fan, but she left and has no plans coming back sadly.

Well if that's the case then I guess we just need anyone that's knowledgeable on tier on 1 to look at this. Preferably staffs.

Well...

We might make it a talk of also what the verse needs to be talked about in general.

The P&A for all profiles looks awful and Base Lavos being > Frozen Flame causes a fuckload of scaling issues.

What're you proposing?

 

[StrymULTRA]

What're you proposing?

Overhaul on the pages in general.

 

[deonment]

rip, ed didnt do a good enough job on reworking lavos

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Overhaul on the pages in general.

Oh.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh.

My issues with Base Lavos > Frozen Flame are that:

• FATE and Dragon God are equal to each other, and both of them are fought right before the Time Devourer, making them both definitely above the Dream Devourer. And FATE has such power after taking the Frozen Flame's power. If we count to the fact that the Frozen Flame is directly connected to Lavos, it's reasonable to think that as Lavos gets strong, the Frozen Flame does too. Y'all forget that Chrono Trigger and Cross are both RPGs where power grows as long as the game goes on, and if those Gods are fought right before the Time Devourer, they definitely do downscale from it in some fashion.

• Base Lavos > FATE and Dragon God would cause a very weird scaling, as FATE treats Lynx as only a piece of herself, and Lynx has killed Lucca. Aka it would make Base Lavos > FATE > Dream Devourer. Or it would make Lucca > Lynx, as she was able to defeat Lavos, despite Lynx, who is merely FATE's biological avatar, has killed her.

Seriously, who the **** thought that Base Lavos scaling from Chrono Cross high tiers was a good idea?