Chronos Low 1-C Downgrade

[TheUnshakableOne]

What is the main language?

The series is Japanese.

 

[Bernkastelll]

The series is Japanese.

Do u have the raw text?

 

[Hasty12345]

Question, why is Portuguese and Spanish envolved? I dont have context here, is the main language there Portuguese and Spanish? btw, can u send the portuguese version?

The manga of the scan in question has no official release outside of Japanese afaik. No single language holds more weight then another, there's issues with all of them.

Edit: My bad, it does have a Spanish release, however my point still stands. G's BR/Spanish translations were and are littered with issues. StS is just one of those manga.

 

[Bernkastelll]

The manga of the scan in question has no official release outside of Japanese afaik. No single language holds more weight then another, there's issues with all of them.

Well, do you have the japanese text?

 

[Hasty12345]

Well, do you have the japanese text?

yeah, it's above one:



I don't have a better quality scan

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Question, why is Portuguese and Spanish envolved? I dont have context here, is the main language there Portuguese and Spanish? btw, can u send the portuguese version?

It's good to have a second point of view when talking about fan translation. And Hasty had already posted the Japanese scan.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/chronos-low-1-c-downgrade.125434/#post-4191969

In the case of Chronos he's transcending space and time of the multiverse.

The multuverse is contained inside his body.

Does it really transcend the space and time of the multiverse?. Chronos does not exist on a different plane and he still exists within the multiverse. The place where Chronos lives is a lake inside Olympus.

Spoiler

---------------------------------

In the manga it is never shown or mentioned that Chronos exists in a higher dimension or anything like that.

 

[Saiyan40009]

Iancelot a question. in the scan of. shura speaking multiverse is of several multiverse what it says

 

[Hasty12345]

Iancelot a question. in the scan of. shura speaking multiverse is of several multiverse what it says

Can this be re-phrased please?

 

[Saiyan40009]

I was wondering if someone can tell me if the scan they use to say that there are several multiverses refers to several or just one

 

[Lormac_CC]

Why does this thread make me feel like saint seiya needs a cosmology revision

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Why does this thread make me feel like saint seiya needs a cosmology revision

A cosmology blog would be better.

Or yeet the verse because every translation says something different

 

[Hasty12345]

I was wondering if someone can tell me if the scan they use to say that there are several multiverses refers to several or just one

Ok, so I talked to a few people and essentially from what I can gather, it can be plural but it's kind of a redundant translation, and this more or less fits the cosmology.

Think of it like this:

1) you can have say 6 multiverses that can be called a multiverse in it's own right. or,

2) you can have a multiverse, and sub-divide it into 6 lesser multiverses.

Given Saint Seiya makes no distinction between destroying "many multiverses" as being greater than a singular multiverse, and the verse has a 2-A cosmology anyway, it makes 0 difference as to if the statement is "multiverse" or "multiverses", The main vocal point of the statement is that memories between humans can be transferred upon meeting someone from another "world" or "universe".

Why does this thread make me feel like saint seiya needs a cosmology revision

Like what? it's literally just a MWI 2-A cosmology, Chronos either transcends it and is low 1-C or he doesn't and nothing changes?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Iancelot a question. in the scan of. shura speaking multiverse is of several multiverse what it says

I just remembered that I had these chapters saved on my computer in better quality.

Spoiler

And, if the scan mentions that there are several multiverses.

The problem is that he doesn't describe the number that exists and how these multiverses are formed. Because Okada is a mediocre author who never develops in detail the concept that introduces the franchise.

And another problem is that the cosmology of this franchise does not affect the power of the characters, because no god or character has been shown to affect the entire multiverse.

Ok, so I talked to a few people and essentially from what I can gather, it can be plural but it's kind of a redundant translation, and this more or less fits the cosmology.

Think of it like this:

1) you can have say 6 multiverses that can be called a multiverse in it's own right. or,

2) you can have a multiverse, and sub-divide it into 6 lesser multiverses.

Given Saint Seiya makes no distinction between destroying "many multiverses" as being greater than a singular multiverse, and the verse has a 2-A cosmology anyway, it makes 0 difference as to if the statement is "multiverse" or "multiverses", The main vocal point of the statement is that memories between humans can be transferred upon meeting someone from another "world" or "universe".

It could also be as I mentioned before each universe has several dimensions and planes of existence, therefore each universe can be named as a multiverse from that point of view.

 

[Hasty12345]

It could also be as I mentioned before each universe has several dimensions and planes of existence, therefore each universe can be its own multiverse.

yeah, that's one way of looking at it. Okada does us the displeasure of using "universe", "world" and "dimension" very generously and in some cases in the same phrase indicating they're all different...... And then seemingly freely interchanging them to add confusion

 

[My_area]

what?????? the only way to see or to have something infinite as finite is to be higher D, because even if you add N to N the result is still N and as such not larger, so the only way for it to be that is if you exist from a higher point of view, just like how the entirety of R is has nothing on C, this is the same case here, in fact any infinite number being compared to a finite quantity in relation to something else objectively needs the thing that it is being compared to be a higher infinity, and this is a fact

That is true, but that is simply for addition and not transcendence which can easily be above infinite of certain dimensionality and yet still not be within higher dimensionality since the gap between lower and higher dimension(if it follows dimensional tiering) is literal uncountable infinity, so just adding countable infinity over countable infinity essentially wouldn't make it uncountable infinity, otherwise having higher than baseline 3-A and 2-A wouldn't be possible. I dont know what you mean by R or C and I am not sure where you honestly got the whole " any infinite number being finite on comparison to something is higher infinity(as in uncountable infinity)"

This is my same thought too. Where was this decided on?

I thought transcending time and space granted this as long as the context behind this meant superior to lower realms and not something vague?

I am very sure it needs more evidence than just "being superior to lower realms" but vague FAQ page doesn't tell too much regarding that

This is what I meant.

I was given the impression that space-time transcendence in general no longer meant higher D, no matter what context. Which was what confused me.

But if we still grant it as long as sufficient context is given, nvm.

My bad, if my word wasn't clear but that is what I meant.
"Transcending space and time is only Low 1-C given the sufficient context"

Question, why is Portuguese and Spanish envolved? I dont have context here, is the main language there Portuguese and Spanish? btw, can u send the portuguese version?

Why is the portuguese/spanish version more reliable than english? was it published in portuguese/spanish? doesnt there have raws of the main language?

Thats because spanish/portugese community of Saint Seiya is larger than english version which is why they often translate the raws faster than english version or the raws are only translated in those languages, I dont think that necessarily makes it more reliable than english translation but in cases english translation can be bad, like Episode G.

And another problem is that the cosmology of this franchise does not affect the power of the characters, because no god or character has been shown to affect the entire multiverse

Isn't Cronus(Episode G) stated to destroy all of the universes or something like that? Wouldn't he scale to the cosmology(except Chronos)?

 

[StekFence]

Isn't Cronus(Episode G) stated to destroy all of the universes or something like that? Wouldn't he scale to the cosmology(except Chronos)?

Well basically, he said he would destroy all of time, it was later revealed there was a multiverse, so that’s what cronus was collapsing. And that’s why he’s 2a.

 

[My_area]

Well basically, he said he would destroy all of time, it was later revealed there was a multiverse, so that’s what cronus was collapsing. And that’s why he’s 2a.

So he scales to 2-A cosmology basically

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Isn't Cronus(Episode G) stated to destroy all of the universes or something like that? Wouldn't he scale to the cosmology(except Chronos)?

No, Cronus is never described as having this power. In the manga it is only described that when Cronus' star clock was destroyed, the Time on Earth and the Tartarus was altered causing creatures from other eras to appear on Earth and this would bring chaos to the place. The power of Cronus is said to affect only the Earth (planet) and the Tartarus (a small part of the Underworld or a prison of that place, and only affects the land where the Titans' castle was located), it is never mentioned that it affects the entire multiverse in any way. I don't even think it affects the whole universe, as this is never mentioned and their goal was to return to Earth to conquer it.

Well basically, he said he would destroy all of time, it was later revealed there was a multiverse, so that’s what cronus was collapsing. And that’s why he’s 2a.

This was never described in the manga and the concept of multiverse did not even exist in the franchise at that time. In Assassin, Shura himself mentions that the power to travel to other universes is a power exclusive to Chronos.

A god could never destroy the multiverse when there are infinite versions of these gods in each of the universes of the multiverse. Each universe has its own gods and the gods seek to conquer the Earth of that universe, not all the Earths of the multiverse.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I'm going to make a cosmology blog as soon as I have time

 

[My_area]

No, Cronus is never described as having this power. In the manga it is only described that when Cronus' star clock was destroyed, the Time on Earth and the Tartarus was altered causing creatures from other eras to appear on Earth and this would bring chaos to the place. The power of Cronus is said to affect only the Earth (planet) and the Tartarus (a small part of the Underworld or a prison of that place, and only affects the land where the Titans' castle was located), it is never mentioned that it affects the entire multiverse in any way. I don't even think it affects the whole universe, as this is never mentioned and their goal was to return to Earth to conquer it.

So what about the statement of destroying "all of time" or something like that though?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

So what about the statement of destroying "all of time" or something like that though?

No, it only describes that it can destroy the time of Aiolia's body to reduce it to an atom (the power of the god can destroy the time of an object). The rest was just altering time so that the planet was in chaos and eliminating humanity to conquer the world covered by light of the sun.

 

[My_area]

No, it only describes that it can destroy the time of Aiolia's body to reduce it to an atom. The rest was just altering time so that the planet was in chaos and eliminating humanity to conquer the world covered by light.

Is that so? I heard about different things. Thanks for the information

 

[Bernkastelll]

Thats because spanish/portugese community of Saint Seiya is larger than english version which is why they often translate the raws faster than english version or the raws are only translated in those languages, I dont think that necessarily makes it more reliable than english translation but in cases english translation can be bad, like Episode G.

Kkkkkkkk ai e foda ne

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Is that so? I heard about different things. Thanks for the information

Raws says he can destroy all existence. I have its. 4 translators agree with it. 3 Japanese speaking people say it heavily depends on context.

But again cosmology blog is needed due to the weirdness of the SS Verses multiverses

 

[deonment]

That is true, but that is simply for addition and not transcendence which can easily be above infinite of certain dimensionality and yet still not be within higher dimensionality since the gap between lower and higher dimension(if it follows dimensional tiering) is literal uncountable infinity, so just adding countable infinity over countable infinity essentially wouldn't make it uncountable infinity, otherwise having higher than baseline 3-A and 2-A wouldn't be possible. I dont know what you mean by R or C and I am not sure where you honestly got the whole " any infinite number being finite on comparison to something is higher infinity(as in uncountable infinity)"

what????????? what are you even saying, I can't understand a thing you are trying to say, to put this in a way that you can hopefully understand, N(the natural numbers) can be contained within 1 and 2 in R(The set of the Real numbers) and that is a "relatively" finite distance, and also, about the can't have higher than high 3-A and 2-A, we consider verse logic to our rules like card games like YuGiOh and MTG do with cards and rulings, also if we go by maths tier 2 should only have two sections, and for the last part Ultima and you can even see what I say in action with Dark tower and its High 1-Bs

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Raws says he can destroy all existence. I have its. 4 translators agree with it. 3 Japanese speaking people say it heavily depends on context.

But again cosmology blog is needed due to the weirdness of the SS Verses multiverses

The raws do not say that, and I explained it in another topic. That scene only describes that he destroys everything, but it only describes that his power allows him to destroy any object, as he then tries to destroy the time of Aiolia's body to reduce it to an atom. The power of the god on a large scale only affects the planet Earth and the Tartarus, as he himself describes when the changes in time begin, and it does not destroy all the matter of the planet and only brings chaos to the planet to eliminate humanity, because Cronus' goal was to conquer the planet where the sun shines.

Cronus doesn't even have 2-C feats in the whole manga and only gets powerscaling with other gods like Athena, Eris, Zeus, Poseidon and Hades (and only three of these gods, Eris, Hades and Poseidon have universal scale feats, because Assassin's Zeus does not have feats of this level, he could not even destroy the planet of Aiolos in the Lost World, and Athena only has powerscaling with two of these gods because she is comparable or more powerful than Poseidon and Hades of the main universe), although this is in doubt because in the story he wasn't a very impressive god and seemed much weaker than these gods.

Is that so? I heard about different things. Thanks for the information

It is just an exaggeration and misinterpretation of Episode.G by some users who use a wrong translation of that manga.

 

[My_area]

Kkkkkkkk ai e foda ne

Should I do the curse K laugh here?

Raws says he can destroy all existence. I have its. 4 translators agree with it. 3 Japanese speaking people say it heavily depends on context.

But again cosmology blog is needed due to the weirdness of the SS Verses multiverses

The raws do not say that, and I explained it in another topic. That scene only describes that he destroys everything, but it only describes that his power allows him to destroy any object, as he then tries to destroy the time of Aiolia's body to reduce it to an atom. The power of the god on a large scale only affects the planet Earth and the Tartarus, as he himself describes when the changes in time begin, and it does not destroy all the matter of the planet and only brings chaos to the planet to eliminate humanity, because Cronus' goal was to conquer the planet where the sun shines.

Cronus doesn't even have 2-C feats in the whole manga and only gets powerscaling with other gods like Athena, Eris, Zeus, Poseidon and Hades (and only three of these gods, Eris, Hades and Poseidon have universal scale feats, because Assassin's Zeus does not have feats of this level, he could not even destroy the planet of Aiolos in the Lost World, and Athena only has powerscaling with two of these gods because she is comparable or more powerful than Poseidon and Hades of the main universe), although this is in doubt because in the story he wasn't a very impressive god and seemed much weaker than these gods.

It is just an exaggeration and misinterpretation of Episode.G by some users who use a wrong translation of that manga.

Interesting conflicting thought, I want to see raws of the scene and its translation to see who is correct but I think that would derail this thread as its about Chronos tier, not Cronus tier so maybe we can move this conversation to message wall.

what????????? what are you even saying, I can't understand a thing you are trying to say, to put this in a way that you can hopefully understand, N(the natural numbers) can be contained within 1 and 2 in R(The set of the Real numbers) and that is a "relatively" finite distance, and also, about the can't have higher than high 3-A and 2-A, we consider verse logic to our rules like card games like YuGiOh and MTG do with cards and rulings, also if we go by maths tier 2 should only have two sections, and for the last part Ultima and you can even see what I say in action with Dark tower and its High 1-Bs

Mutual confusion I suppose. What I am trying to say is that gap between lower and higher dimension provided that verse follows dimensional tiering is much larger than infinity, so adding just another degree of infinity over infinity would just be higher in the same dimension and not literally in the next dimension, which then loops back to why seeing infinite as finite doesn't necessarily equals to being higher dimension. Hope I explained it in simple terms.

Well, those numbers between 1 and 2 are not necessarily only natural number but rather decimals and rational + irrational numbers in it, meaning counting that and that whole number set would be equated to first uncountable infinity which in case of 3D would Low 2-C, in case of 4D would be Low 1-C. True. I mean Tier 2 really in essence just has 2 sections, its divided more for tiering sake, makes it easier that way. Uh okay, guess I will check soon

 

[StekFence]

So what’s the conclusion

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

So what’s the conclusion

Lack of staff input so no conclusion but the options are

1.) Delete him

2.) Downgrade him

3.) He qualifies because

A.) Hyper timeline logic

B.) His statements are infsct valid but if you havent read the series it would be hard to tell.from lack of context on profile.

4.) Downgrade him because state of being =/= AP so he'd have 5D omnipresence but lower tier AP


I'm working on a rough draft for a cosmology blog

 

[StekFence]

Alr

 

[My_area]

I vouch for downgrade but I am not a staff so yeah

 

[Bernkastelll]

I vouch for downgrade but I am not a staff so yeah

oye

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Are dimensions in Saint Seiya implied to be degrees of infinities?

Because if it isn't, there's nothing here presented that defend Chronos' Low 1-C. In which case, I agree with the downgrade.

 

[StekFence]

Yup. Looks like a cosmology blog is heavily needed

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Yeah. I do agree that it seems that Chronos' is higher dimensional compared to gods, and it seems he is more powerful too. But so far, I haven't seen proof that indicate that more dimensions in Saint Seiya imply degrees of infinities. Maybe more power, but not to the degree necessary to justify a new tiering.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Yeah. I do agree that it seems that Chronos' is higher dimensional compared to gods, and it seems he is more powerful too. But so far, I haven't seen proof that indicate that more dimensions in Saint Seiya imply degrees of infinities. Maybe more power, but not to the degree necessary to justify a new tiering.

I can get some scans. I have a few but in at work atm

 

[My_area]

Are dimensions in Saint Seiya implied to be degrees of infinities?

Because if it isn't, there's nothing here presented that defend Chronos' Low 1-C. In which case, I agree with the downgrade.

Not to my knowledge no, especially when there are no 5th dimension in Saint Seiya. Low 1-C literally comes from Chronos transcending 2-A cosmology and then having timelines as part of it.

I can get some scans. I have a few but in at work atm

Looking foward to it, because so far none of the scans exactly looks Low 1-C to me

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Looking foward to it, because so far none of the scans exactly looks Low 1-C to me

A timeline that holds other timelines isn't 5D by implying an additional time axis?

Well anyways it might be a bit before I have time.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Actually nvm. Just downgrade him. I'll make a new crt once my cosmology blog is ready.


The scans are implying some crazy things lol

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Not to my knowledge no, especially when there are no 5th dimension in Saint Seiya. Low 1-C literally comes from Chronos transcending 2-A cosmology and then having timelines as part of it.

Oh, this isn't what I'm talking about. The stuff I've seen here does look 5D - But Saint Seiya, so far, doesn't seem to treat higher dimensions as having degrees of infinity power.