Chrono Trigger: The day the world refused to have consistent size scaling

[DMUA]

So, I finally got my hands on a copy of this masterpiece on the steam port (Which started out awful but eventually was patched into quality), and it was really good. You know, save the part where I loaded it onto a new computer and the sound became this nightmare, but either way.

As I looked upon the profiles and the calcs again, with a bit more detail then before... I realized.

The calcs are utterly wanked.

Queen Zeal's moon sized mountains
So, this uses the world map to scale the mountains in Chrono Trigger to be the size of the moon. Which, is a bit absurd just as an opening, but this is a fantasy world, they can do what they want.

... That said, the same map also portrays the market place as being over 400 Kilometers long, something you can walk end to end of within the span of a few seconds

Seem like an exaggeration? Let me get an image I made way back.


The market is 11 pixels, divided by 1024 makes for a discrepancy of 0.0107421875

Times 40,075 km for the circumference would make for 430.493164063 Kilometers.

... For a normal medieval marketplace. Needless to say, the world map absolutely should not be used for feats like this, as if we do, we'd be utterly bloating the results to immense degree.

But wait, there are yet more.

The Day of Lavos
... Yet again, using the worldmap, which is horribly inconsistent. Case in point, it has the rocks, which are a bit smaller than lavos, clocking in at over 300 Kilometers across.

... Which is a bit weird, considering that when you actually go to throw down against Lavos, he's big, sure, but nowhere near the size of an entire country staring you in the face. It's not like there are many specific statements about how big he is in lore, I remember one statement about him being "Enormous", which, sure is a bit weird for something that's no bigger than an elephant, but it also really doesn't justify a continental size like what's suggested here.

Side note: This would also make Lavos distinctly not Class T in sheer size, but not like anyone cares about lifting in Lavos matches.

But wait, there is yet one last one that could maybe, possibly, save the 5-A ra- no.

Cross' Meteor Shower
Now, I haven't looked through Chrono Cross yet (nor do I have any idea why they'd scale to the cast of Trigger), so perhaps there's some better feat I don't know about however. This one, is not that feat.

So, the thing is apparently size of a forking continent based off a shot where it's extremely far away from earth and it's simply perspective distorting the sizes, you know, bigger things (like a planet) are smaller farther away. Once it actually reaches the enemies you're casting it on, it's like, a meter wide at best (which gets 7-B results)

But wait, I'm not just done destroying the AP. I have more.

a space flea rolls around at the speed of very fast
This is actually valid calc wise, but, I don't really see any reason this shouldn't just classify as travel speed. It's just Lavos picking out earth among the planets, and setting a course. You don't need high reactions to go through open space, much less if you've plotted a course ahead of time to make sure you don't crash into anything.

So now what
As for what they should scale to? All here

Individual blasts from the rain of destruction are 6-B, the party takes them to the face pretty easily. Sub Rel from the flight speed of something they're actually shown somewhat navigating.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean, Frog is still mach 100K

 

[DMUA]

you mean his attack speed, from the moon sized mountains

 

[Psychomaster35]

Just to bring something up: isnt it just game mechanisms that the market seems bigger than usual? Probably just enlargened just for us to see. Now, its like other RPGS, where our playable character wouldnt be Large Size Type 3 just because theyre as big as the village, wouldnt they? Game mechanics, again. So, they just enlargened the player and the villages just so we could see them.

 

[DMUA]

And why wouldn't they also enlarge the mountains beyond belief as a result?

Heck, it shows the country wiping blasts from Lavos' rain of destruction as significantly smaller when it zooms out for the planetary shot, it generally has no mind to portray anything in a way we should scale from.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

A g r e e d

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

TBF, I always kind of saw the moon sized mountain is iffy. Its a Woe is the largest mountain on the Continent and covered a great deal of it; so I rolled with it. But yeah game mechanics. However, we still have this video. It's narrated by the same guy who made the calcs. Though, is the Lavos crashing down and reaching the Earth's core in seconds still combat applicable? Earlier in the video also explains why Frog scales to Crono, and I think DarkAnine explained some detail on why it scale to reactions on another thread since Lavos actively makes U-turns.

Anyway, High 6-A should be the bare minimum since Lavos does legit scorch the planetary surface in seconds.

 

[TriforcePower1]

The mountain feat is indeed iffy, but as DDM said, High 6-A for scorching the planetary surface is a good alternative.

 

[DMUA]

It doesn't even entirely get destroyed, plenty of buildings are still around even a thousand years afterwards.

And at that, it was done with an immense number of individually 6-B blasts

I'd sure love to actually see him making U turns travelling at MFTL+ if such a thing exists.

Isn't it stated that Lavos is absorbing the life of the planet, not the heat? Something not exactly quantifiable. And even if he absorbed all that, there's no saying he can release it all at once for an attack or series of attacks.

It doesn't actually wipe out the dinosaurs though. It hits extremely hard, sure, but everything is still mostly fine after impact. The crater itself also has no good way to scale from, so not like we can measure it that way.

Heck, Aku wiping out the dinosaurs only got baseline 6-B due to the fact it didn't make nearly the crater, so, eh

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

6-A+ to High 6-A isn't too stretchy, plus the former feat was super casual. So it's still reasonable for Lavos Core to be High 6-A via multiple scaling chains.

 

[DMUA]

Edited a bit, just him hitting the Earth hard doesn't mean he was what killed off the dinosaurs (especially considering said meteor wasn't breaking Newtonian physics in sheer speed)

 

[DMUA]

.... Looking through that powercrunch video gives me an immense amount of conniptions

For one thing, they use the complete geothermal energy of the core of the Earth and assume Lavos absorbed all of it, which is pretty contrary to saying it's renewable because the amount is small... Compared to the... Core...?

Beyond it being a bit vague if the Chrono Trigger actually moved the moon into an eclipse or they just used some other trick, no one actually scales to it in any way.

They calculated Lavos at several hundred kilometers in diameter when they're nowhere near that size in the actual fight, and used a velocity completely contrary to the fact they were going MFTL+ a few moments prior, getting a result that would completely obliterate the planet as opposed to just cratering a castle and wrecking the surroundings

And I'm barely halfway, oh boy

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's only enough energy to destroy a planet; it doesn't destroy the planet entirely if that energy is concentrated. Also, shame on you for trash talking ProtoDude

 

[DMUA]

> considering that this mountain was big enough to hold most the world's population

What. The absolute. Fork.

Did, like, this guy play the same game I did? I feel like something went wrong here.

Melchior was the only one to actually be sealed on the mountain of woe, the rest of humanity is living in the village in the shadow of said mountain.

Actually, now that I think about it, our Zeal calc assumes they moved the mountain with MHS+ speed, constantly swaying the mountain around... As opposed to just, letting it sway in the wind? What sort of person looks at how it's portrayed and goes "hmm, yes, Zeal is constantly moving it back and forth with TK on a 24/7 basis while doing everything else in her life"

Even disregarding the size and mass inflation, the speed is drastically overestimated, and speed shouldn't even apply considering we don't see how fast it's lifted, we just see it come down after the seal breaks.

Oh, also something I forgot for earlier, there's really nothing to suggest Zeal is as big as Great Britian (then again, we don't really get any size, but are we sure a country sized island is a good assumption) or that GPE should scale for Lavos just ripping it apart and letting it fall.

Luckily that's all the AP feats so my soul may yet rest

 

[DMUA]

It's only enough energy to destroy a planet; it doesn't destroy the planet entirely if that energy is concentrated. Also, shame on you for trash talking ProtoDude

Inverse square law and conservation of energy says it would be really un concentrated very fast and it wouldn't end well whatsoever for what's on the receiving end.

Names mean nothing to me, for I speak only in the tongues of math.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, he literally played the game like 40 something times.

 

[DMUA]

Well that just makes it even more confusing

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Perhaps ask someone like FateAlbine?

 

[DMUA]

Fate doesn't want anything to do with VS and I'm not going to retrigger their Lavos PTSD

All the Chrono Trigger guys on the site re already here, being Cal Crimson and Triforce

 

[TriforcePower1]

I think it's possible to calculate how big Zeal is using the warp thing that lifts you to Zeal. Like, calculate the distance between the two mechanisms using world map, then use that same distance to calculate Zeal. Scaling from the World map should be fine here, because it should be consistent at the very least with the size of its landmasses.

Considering that Lavos' power was used to lift Zeal (either that or the "sun power", but it's stated that Lavos>that anyway), we can just use E=mgh , g is constant 9.81, m is calculated above and h is cloud height as Zeal is above clouds.

 

[Overlord775]

Would Magus' Black Hole be usable for AP ?

 

[TriforcePower1]

Nope because it's not a real Black Hole

 

[Overlord775]

reasons ?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Because there's no evidence to show it's a real black hole.

 

[DMUA]

I think it's possible to calculate how big Zeal is using the warp thing that lifts you to Zeal. Like, calculate the distance between the two mechanisms using world map, then use that same distance to calculate Zeal. Scaling from the World map should be fine here, because it should be consistent at the very least with the size of its landmasses.

Considering that Lavos' power was used to lift Zeal (either that or the "sun power", but it's stated that Lavos>that anyway), we can just use E=mgh , g is constant 9.81, m is calculated above and h is cloud height as Zeal is above clouds.

Hmm, it is an idea, but as I think I said before, holding something in place doesn't have any work to it. If they lift it fairly fast, GPE would apply, but all we see is it being in the sky, then being torn down.

Then again, it isn't all that unreasonable to assume that the thing was lifted at GPE applicable speed, so I guess if I wanted I could figure all that out

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Wouldn't Lavos still be above the Sun Stone/Son of the Sun, who absorbed the energy of the sun for 60,001,999 years straight?

 

[DMUA]

Yes, but keep in mind that it was a small hole in a cave so luminosity would probably just give extreme depression as the result

... Then again that long of a time could be something, guess I could try to figure luminosity out

 

[DMUA]

Alright so

F = L/(4*pi*d^2). Where F (measured in watts/m^2) = Energy/radiant flux; L = Luminosity (measured in watts); d = distance (measured in meters). We need to transform 10000 Lux in watts/m^2 first, we simply multiply the vallue by 0.0079, wich give us F = 79 watts/m^2

Assuming the sun stone is like, exactly a square meter 79├ù(4├ù¤Ç├ù1^2) is 992.74327853437 watts

It starts at 65,000,000 BC and ends at 2300 AD (unless there are translation differences between copies by which case oh lord), 65,002,300 years, 23725839500 days, 569420148000 hours, 2049912532800000 seconds

2049912532800000×992.74327853437 makes the total energy...

2035036888520566278.552336 Joules, 486.38548960816 Megatons, Mountain level

... Well I guess that is indeed less powerful than Lavos.

 

[TriforcePower1]

The fun part is that I also tried to calculate that thing and only got 7-B lol

Anyway, about that feat, while keeping something in place isn't energy (assuming this was done by Telekinesis or something instead of using Newton's 3rd law), E=mgh is the energy needed to LIFT Zeal from the surface to the place it currently is (to be more exact, that's the potential energy of Zeal being up there, but in order to bring something that high you need at least to use that very amount of energy).

I think it's probably even possible to calculate AP from keeping Zeal afloat if it worked like a normal plane or helicopter and pushed air downwards to stay up there. That would be fully calculable (knowing mass)

 

[DMUA]

You're describing GPE, standing for Gravitational Potential energy, which is the energy something has when dropped from a certain height. If it's reasonable to assume they lifted it at fair speed, we can also use it for that, but at it's core it's all about dropping.

Well, it doesn't really look like a plane or helicopter. No wind is being blown down to keep it afloat, it's just some kind of gravity negation or whatever magic you prefer. But, yeah, either way, how would you suggest I actually go about the scaling? Like, you mentioned something about the beam that sends you up but I'm not sure how I'd apply it.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Use the world map to calculate the distance between the terminals


And then use the distance you found from there and apply it to the corresponding terminals, and then use that to pixel scale Zeal's size

 

[DMUA]

... The distance between the terminals actually looks smaller on Zeal

... meaning it would be... bigger than the entire world's surface, taking this literally?


for fork's sake Square why do you make my life suffering

 

[TriforcePower1]

Consider that there's prospective in the second map, but still, yeah. At bare minimum it shows that Zeal is forking huge anyway.

 

[DMUA]

I just dunno what to do with this

Can we just say it's a country being lifted and thereby it supports a country level rating?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's treated as a floating Continent, plus we can't be too over board with pixel scaling because that's all over the place. Giant humans are bad, but tiny planets and continents are even worse. Plus, even low-balling it as assuming it's comparable to the British Isles got a Continent level+ result when Lavos' destroying it using inverse square law came into play.

 

[DMUA]

That was from a series of different blasts and not all of it really shattered, Lavos just let it fall over

Heck, there were plenty of survivors despite supposedly fragging it hard enough for that result

 

[TriforcePower1]

To be fair, even in the way it's portrayed there shouldn't be any survivors. Maybe they managed to evacuate or something.

Anyway, I guess an another way of calculating Zeal's GPE is to see how much destruction it caused


A good chunk of the world got flooded, if not outright destroyed.

Lastly, considering that most likely, Zeal occupied the empty space in the middle of the map, we can just use that and assume that the terminals aren't lifting you vertically.

 

[DMUA]

hmm, even then, we dunno how much is destruction and how much is raised sea level

But yeah that's definitely a lot of damage

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Pretty sure a combination of both would inherently be impressive tier wise.

 

[DMUA]

Question being how do we get our numbers

... actually, stepping back in the thread a bit

Is Zeal ever actually stated to be a floating continent or anything akin to that? It's not like it's out of the question for it to be a fairly large island.