Chara downgrade/overhaul (Undertale)

[Eden_Warlock99]

Wouldn't Genocide Frisk being the one who destroyed the timeline also make Sans Low 2-C? Which doesn't really make sense

 

[Funnimane]

Wouldn't Genocide Frisk being the one who destroyed the timeline also make Sans Low 2-C? Which doesn't really make sense

Nah. Sans is only a challenge by sheer skill and cheating. We can still one-shot him and he would normally only be able to deal 1 damage per hit to us, and the game mechanics don't allow damage dealt to the player to be 0. Not to mention, we fought him before reaching our full potential.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It's a rather easy fix. If you're frustrated, you just keep the whining and insults to yourself, maybe scream into a pillow, eat a meal, wank one or two off, come back here whenever you have a clear head and cleanly, concisely type out your arguments. Life's too short and the world's too grand to be stressing eachother out about a video game. This is meant to be a break from the real world to talk about the fictional stuff we enjoy, even if it's a debate.
That said, aside from this you seem to have mellowed out in the rest of your comment, so good job.

I poked fun at the implications that my tone would have any repercussions in real life, it's not that deep.

I meant that when Chara says "my human soul/determination", they are referring to Frisk's soul and determination. The "weren't mine, but yours" is referring to us. No self-contradiction there.

But these are talking about the same thing.
If "yours" is the player, then it's claiming that the determination and the SOUL are theirs, the Player's. If we accept that Chara is talking to the player, then we also need to accept that the determination, a substance carried by the SOUL (which are us), is from the Player's own desires and determination to see that ending. Chara just overtook that power to themselves, it still belongs to them in the moment they perform the feat, and afterwards when they rebuild it.
Again, I believe indexing the feat for them at the moment they had monopolized the Player's power is fair, as the profile is meant to represent that very version of Chara, the one where they had that much power in their possession.

You're not contradicting me here. I agree, they had full control by that point, by virtue of possessing them.

I believe the profile is indexing Chara at the point where they have control over that much power, yes. Frisk would not be able to accomplish such levels of power on their own when the determination and SOUL (which presumably carry the stats - even though we can't really argue that they are responsible for such feat for reasons I mentioned) aren't even theirs. While in Pacifist we have several instances where Frisk takes over and shows preference over our choices, much like Kris to a lesser extent, in Genocide, all there is, is Chara, and the player. Frisk's strength takes no part in this, thus, I believe indexing this feat under their belt seems inaccurate imo.

That much is clear. Gaining "full ownership" means they aren't limited by corruption and possession and more literally are Frisk, as seen when they can take control during the ending of a saintly pacifist route and they also feel our emotions.
And now that I'm thinking about it more, they would just solidly scale to everything about Frisk after obtaining the soul, though I wouldn't add it to their page since they aren't separate physical beings at that point and it would just be a cluttered duplicate of Frisk's profile with extra keys. Multiple Selves type 1 for both of them, maybe.

I can accept that new hax, yes. I can also agree with Chara just wanting an actual body rather than just the SOUL, and thus, control Frisk the exact same way the player do.

If I throw a grenade at someone and the grenade's explosion turns them into a pile of blood and gore, it was me who killed that person but the grenade would be rated as 9-B~ for it. I dunno how to better analogize it.

If you have access to said grenade as your natural weaponry, you'd still get 9-B with grenades in your profile. It's redundant to specify Chara using the Player's power because at that point, it was theirs, they had control over it, able to fully manipulate that much power as they wished, just lacking a body.

A better analogy would be you consuming a grenade and then having the power to use them as a super power. Yes the source was a third party, but you're still the one who pulls off the feats.

 

[Funnimane]

I poked fun at the implications that my tone would have any repercussions in real life, it's not that deep.

I just read the title and assumed you were mocking me. My bad?
In all likelihood, it wouldn't. I just meant that most people want to have a respectable image and would be reluctant to act that way to someone's face, as opposed to through the internet miles away from eachother.

If "yours" is the player, then it's claiming that the determination and the SOUL are theirs, the Player's. If we accept that Chara is talking to the player, then we also need to accept that the determination, a substance carried by the SOUL (which are us), is from the Player's own desires and determination to see that ending. Chara just overtook that power to themselves, it still belongs to them in the moment they perform the feat, and afterwards when they rebuild it.
I can also agree with Chara just wanting an actual body rather than just the SOUL, and thus, control Frisk the exact same way the player do.
It's redundant to specify Chara using the Player's power because at that point, it was theirs, they had control over it, able to fully manipulate that much power as they wished, just lacking a body.

They do have the body, they're in possession of Frisk's body by the end since they can perform physical strikes without our input and it's visually represented by their sprite being reskinned. What they explicitly don't "have" is the soul, despite being able to manipulate its power. It isn't inherently theirs even at this point. Like tearing the arm cannon off of a combat robot and using it like a gun VS being a cyborg with an arm cannon...? Don't take that analogy too seriously.

Anyways, the red soul is ultimately what has the power, not whichever body owns it. Since Chara in Frisk's body using the red soul's power can physically destroy the timeline and remake it, Frisk having the red soul should be able to as well, even if they never do. Frisk in the pacifist route, who has more independence as you said, is capable of tanking Low 2-C attacks and can turn their hopes and dreams into reality. Chara's Low 2-C attack potency is just a parallel to that, going thematically with the pacifist route (defense) and genocide route (offense), and they both can manipulate reality.

I'd argue that Frisk would've been able to hurt Asriel as well, if they had wanted to. As shown in the Undyne date and implied in the library book scan from earlier, even if you swing with a perfect, full force attack, if you don't actually want to hurt the victim then you pretty much won't. Asriel is the final boss of the pacifist route, so by that point any malice Frisk might've had would be gone. Instead, the focus is all on surviving, saving their friends, and saving Asriel himself.

For another example of souls having power independent from the owner, there's Photoshop Flowey. Flowey is normally outclassed by Frisk in determination, but once he obtains six human souls, the determination residing in those souls adds up to him despite his own actual personality not changing, and he ends up outclassing Frisk. The souls there even have will independent from Flowey, as they're able to support his enemy and betray him. Hell, that's also more or less the case with Chara, since we can still do whatever we want with Frisk and the soul even after giving it up, though that may just be voluntary on Chara's part.

I believe the profile is indexing Chara at the point where they have control over that much power, yes.

While there are profiles for characters at specific points in the story like Dragon Ball/Z/Super Goku and Part 1/2/War arc/New era Naruto, Chara's profile is just "Chara". It should be showing how powerful they are at each point they appear in the story, especially since it would only be two or three different ratings.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I just read the title and assumed you were mocking me. My bad?
In all likelihood, it wouldn't. I just meant that most people want to have a respectable image and would be reluctant to act that way to someone's face, as opposed to through the internet miles away from eachother.


They do have the body, they're in possession of Frisk's body by the end since they can perform physical strikes without our input and it's visually represented by their sprite being reskinned. What they explicitly don't "have" is the soul, despite being able to manipulate its power. It isn't inherently theirs even at this point. Like tearing the arm cannon off of a combat robot and using it like a gun VS being a cyborg with an arm cannon...? Don't take that analogy too seriously.

Anyways, the red soul is ultimately what has the power, not whichever body owns it. Since Chara in Frisk's body using the red soul's power can physically destroy the timeline and remake it, Frisk having the red soul should be able to as well, even if they never do. Frisk in the pacifist route, who has more independence as you said, is capable of tanking Low 2-C attacks and can turn their hopes and dreams into reality. Chara's Low 2-C attack potency is just a parallel to that, going thematically with the pacifist route (defense) and genocide route (offense), and they both can manipulate reality.

I'd argue that Frisk would've been able to hurt Asriel as well, if they had wanted to. As shown in the Undyne date and implied in the library book scan from earlier, even if you swing with a perfect, full force attack, if you don't actually want to hurt the victim then you pretty much won't. Asriel is the final boss of the pacifist route, so by that point any malice Frisk might've had would be gone. Instead, the focus is all on surviving, saving their friends, and saving Asriel himself.

For another example of souls having power independent from the owner, there's Photoshop Flowey. Flowey is normally outclassed by Frisk in determination, but once he obtains six human souls, the determination residing in those souls adds up to him despite his own actual personality not changing, and he ends up outclassing Frisk. The souls there even have will independent from Flowey, as they're able to support his enemy and betray him. Hell, that's also more or less the case with Chara, since we can still do whatever we want with Frisk and the soul even after giving it up, though that may just be voluntary on Chara's part.


While there are profiles for characters at specific points in the story like Dragon Ball/Z/Super Goku and Part 1/2/War arc/New era Naruto, Chara's profile is just "Chara". It should be showing how powerful they are at each point they appear in the story, especially since it would only be two or three different ratings.

Before continuing, do we at least agree that Chara, at the end of the genocide route, should keep it's Low 2-C?

 

[Funnimane]

Before continuing, do we at least agree that Chara, at the end of the genocide route, should keep it's Low 2-C?

Not opposed to it. I really more care about upgrading Frisk and improving Chara's profile than downgrading them, that was just for marketing.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I disagree FRA

 

[Greatsage13th]

I agree with the disagreement

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Not opposed to it. I really more care about upgrading Frisk and improving Chara's profile than downgrading them, that was just for marketing.

I see, could you, please, edit the OP to reflect this? (Also the blog)

Just so we don't have any confusions here. Please paint it as a Frisk upgrade and as a Chara profile update, it should track even more attention from staff and supporters. I will call in some of them.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Oh my f-
Bullshit. Absolute bullshit, it has been SHOWN that Determination is a valid method, and a better one, at making one strong, this is seen all throughout the Genocide Run when we, a 20 DEF Character, face a 99 ATK Undyne, even though we can one shot Asgore with 99 ATK (And even less) who has 80 DEF, now, genius, how exactly do we manage to survive 99 ATK hits? And how do we one shot 80 DEF character with even less ATK?
It's through the only method shown to increase one's strength which doesn't rely on stats, Determination.

Bullshit, very bullshit of yours, Charmander.
Killing intense is the reason why.
It was shown that intense is always a reason why oneshot or small damage.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Humans have 8-B Souls but often control about 9-B levels of it, so...

And that's where greatest magicians of humanity comes in with Low 2-C stats and where's Asgore's most strongest and vague feat hides.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Bullshit, very bullshit of yours, Charmander.
Killing intense is the reason why.
It was shown that intense is always a reason why oneshot or small damage.

Killing intent mostly weakens other monsters and not increase the player's current statistics.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Killing intent mostly weakens other monsters and not increase the player's current statistics.

Nah, wrong.
Killing Intense is a thing.
Thing what helps a lot everytime and DT doesn't even acting here.

For example

In Undyne's home fight, when we punch her we do just simple 1 damage, Frisk really didn't wanted to kill her and etc.

But in Genocide route, Chara comes in and tell us that they really hate Toriel by "Not worth talking to."
and yet Toriel says that we really do hate her THAT much.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Nah, wrong.
Killing Intense is a thing.
Thing what helps a lot everytime and DT doesn't even acting here.

For example

In Undyne's home fight, when we punch her we do just simple 1 damage, Frisk really didn't wanted to kill her and etc.

But in Genocide route, Chara comes in and tell us that they really hate Toriel by "Not worth talking to."
and yet Toriel says that we really do hate her THAT much.

Then should we remove killing intent from the every single monster's weakness section then?

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Then should we remove killing intent from the every single monster's weakness section then?

What.
I mean that Killing Intent is only reason why we can one shot all of them as easy as Frisk do.

Why removing?

 

[Greatsage13th]

What.
I mean that Killing Intent is only reason why we can one shot all of them as easy as Frisk do.

Why removing?

Because you said it doesn't weaken them at all. Only amplifying Frisk's AP.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Because you said it doesn't weaken them at all. Only amplifying Frisk's AP.

What.
I never mentioned that "AP" solos.

The only thing I wanted to say that killing intense is the main reason why they die, because This's their MAJOR weakness.

Except Susie Deltarune of course.

 

[Greatsage13th]

What.
I never mentioned that "AP" solos.

The only thing I wanted to say that killing intense is the main reason why they die, because This's their MAJOR weakness.

Except Susie Deltarune of course.

I mean they can still die even when frisk isn't bloodlusted tho.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

I mean they can still die even when frisk isn't bloodlusted tho.

Of course they can.

But one of times when Frisk actually didn't do any damage is Undyne Home fight

 

[Greatsage13th]

Of course they can.

But one of times when Frisk actually didn't do any damage is Undyne Home fight

Pretty sure Frisk did that with no effort. Therefore 1 damage only.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Pretty sure Frisk did that with no effort. Therefore 1 damage only.

Of course, why hurting your friend?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Bullshit, very bullshit of yours, Charmander.
Killing intense is the reason why.
It was shown that intense is always a reason why oneshot or small damage.

Their defense weakens if they do not wish to fight. This does nog apply to Undyne the Undying who has as much intention and determination as we do. Her defense isn't dropped at all.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Their defense weakens if they do not wish to fight. This does nog apply to Undyne the Undying who has as much intention and determination as we do. Her defense isn't dropped at all.

Not only.
They get the hella damage if they meet someone who want to kill them like a lot.

 

[Funnimane]

I see, could you, please, edit the OP to reflect this? (Also the blog)

Just so we don't have any confusions here. Please paint it as a Frisk upgrade and as a Chara profile update, it should track even more attention from staff and supporters. I will call in some of them.

Not opposed to it. I really more care about upgrading Frisk and improving Chara's profile than downgrading them, that was just for marketing.

I am still opposed to it actually, I said that impulsively. Chara used to have a key for "possessing Frisk", which was transferred to Frisk's profile as a genocide route key specifically because it was possession and it's still Frisk's stats and abilities. The profile considers end-game Chara to be them physically manifested independent from Frisk. I already explained that that's incorrect, and it's still them possessing Frisk even at the end. So, to be consistent, Chara's end-game feats should be transferred to Frisk's profile. Final answer, hopefully.

Their defense weakens if they do not wish to fight. This does nog apply to Undyne the Undying who has as much intention and determination as we do. Her defense isn't dropped at all.

A powerful human aiming to kill a passive monster was just highlighting the most dangerous scenario, which would result in the monster being instantly killed. We do dozens to hundreds of damage to fodder monsters but thousands of damage to Undyne the Undying despite her 99 DF, so killing intent still had effect there.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I am still opposed to it actually, I said that impulsively. Chara used to have a key for "possessing Frisk", which was transferred to Frisk's profile as a genocide route key specifically because it was possession and it's still Frisk's stats and abilities. The profile considers end-game Chara to be them physically manifested independent from Frisk. I already explained that that's incorrect, and it's still them possessing Frisk even at the end. So, to be consistent, Chara's end-game feats should be transferred to Frisk's profile. Final answer, hopefully.

It quite literally doesn't? There's nothing but an implication in the weakness section that they interacted with the Universe on their own. All the stats and abilities, and AP justifications are still considering Chara possessing Frisk rather than them on their own, as seen with the justification that "Chara betrayed Flowey" in the AP section, which is something that happens while we're still mostly controlling Frisk. Just remove that line from the weakness section and we're golden.

---

The Genocide Key considers all the feats which have not been performed by the possessing Chara. The only problem is them considering one shotting Asgore as a feat for Frisk when Chara is the one who did it.
So rather than moving Chara's feats to that key, we should edit Frisk's genocide key.

Again, no. Having "potentially Low 2-C" powers but not having nearly enough capability to tap it without someone else's possessing you is not warranting a Low 2-C key.

 

[Funnimane]

It quite literally doesn't? There's nothing but an implication in the weakness section that they interacted with the Universe on their own. All the stats and abilities, and AP justifications are still considering Chara possessing Frisk rather than them on their own, as seen with the justification that "Chara betrayed Flowey" in the AP section, which is something that happens while we're still mostly controlling Frisk. Just remove that line from the weakness section and we're golden.

---

The Genocide Key considers all the feats which have not been performed by the possessing Chara. The only problem is them considering one shotting Asgore as a feat for Frisk when Chara is the one who did it.
So rather than moving Chara's feats to that key, we should edit Frisk's genocide key.

Again, no. Having "potentially Low 2-C" powers but not having nearly enough capability to tap it without someone else's possessing you is not warranting a Low 2-C key.

You'll want to go back to my earlier comment now. That was me running through my thought process for myself mostly.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You'll want to go back to my earlier comment now. That was me running through my thought process for myself mostly.

So you're not opposed to keeping the Low 2-C for Chara in Frisk's body? You're gone back and forth with this, so I'd like a definitive answer.

 

[Funnimane]

So you're not opposed to keeping the Low 2-C for Chara in Frisk's body? You're gone back and forth with this, so I'd like a definitive answer.

The "earlier comment" was referring to

this one.

I am opposed to a L2C rating on Chara's profile, final answer.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Then who gets the low 2C rating? certainly not Frisk either.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I believe I gave a very sound reasoning as to why Chara should keep it, as it's basically their power after they have total control over it. Sorry, but I will have to disagree with the CRT.

On another note, may I use your blog on a new revision for Chara's profile, not only to remove the little section, but to improve it overall.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I believe I gave a very sound reasoning as to why Chara should keep it, as it's basically their power after they have total control over it. Sorry, but I will have to disagree with the CRT.

On another note, may I use your blog on a new revision for Chara's profile, not only to remove the little section, but to improve it overall.

Agreed

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Imagine if Chara invades Deltarune Chapter 7 and erase infinite dimension multiverse

 

[Greatsage13th]

Imagine if Chara invades Deltarune Chapter 7 and erase infinite dimension multiverse

No...don't jinx it.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

No...don't jinx it.

I will.
It would be so fun to see "Chara is only Universal" faces after that