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Chara downgrade/overhaul (Undertale)

480
232
bored, I'll quit stalling and post the thing now
tldr this garbage, this less so

uKCYInH.jpg


First thing is the biggest, but shouldn't be difficult to explain. The profile seems to treat the ending scene as Chara physically manifesting independently, hence the feat of nuking the timeline being listed on their profile + superhuman physical abilities. All of the context either contradicts this or has a much better explanation.

First of all, the sole bit of explanation the profile has for this.
Weaknesses: Chara needs someone with strong enough Determination and capacity for violence to manifest and needed to possess a host to interact with the universe before they had reached a sufficiently great level of power.
"Power" presumably means LV, as they only show up like this at the end of the game, when we're at max level. But LV just increases the recipient's physical strength and lessens their empathy. Nothing suggests it would allow a tagalong spirit to manifest with its own form. One of Chara's slightly obnoxious amount of arbitrary classifications is "Manifestation of the player's willingness to kill just to increase their stats" which is oh so dumb, but presumably based on the line in the page's quote, which might serve to explain Chara being able to do random bullshit if we level up enough. First problem is that you can legitimately get all the way up to LV 19 on a neutral route with no possession weirdness, meaning Chara's influence isn't actually linked with statistics. Them claiming they embody the feeling of gaining power much better serves the idea that they are, literally, a demon, which I'll come back to later.

Now, the alternative.
Throughout the genocide route, Chara gradually overrides control of our character, which the profiles do seem to agree with. Starting from Toriel's house, while this is probably always the case, the non-dialogue text boxes are explicitly Chara speaking. Right after you kill off Toriel, Flowey immediately recognizes Chara in the protagonist. As early as Snowdin, Frisk walks in the middle of dialogue which they never do otherwise. By Waterfall, Frisk adopts Chara's signature smile when encountering an enemy, and later intimidates Flowey with it. At New Home, the descriptions when you examine objects are explicitly Chara's thoughts. At the end of Sans' boss fight, Frisk attacks Sans a second time in a row unprompted. Near the end, Frisk attacks Asgore without us even choosing to attack once first, and then they brutalize Flowey without the rest of the battle HUD even being present.

By the end here, continuing the natural story progression of the entire rest of the run, Chara has taken full control, represented by Frisk's sprite being reskinned with the fallen human's features and clothing. In the post-genocide pacifist ending, when possessed, Frisk takes on Chara's appearance as the same sprite they have at the end of the genocide route.

A natural assumption could be that we're just looking at Chara in first-person from Frisk's perspective, as we would in a "battle" screen. Only problem is, Chara has an overworld sprite here. And this is the overworld. This parallels with the finale of the neutral path, in which it's an all-black overworld and Flowey speaks with the exact same text format as Chara does: same font, white text, appears below the character, and not contained within a speech bubble or text box. There's even similar sinister ambience, and Flowey makes the screen flash red during his transformation the same way Chara does during their scare, though Flowey's is less epilepsy-triggering. If this is the overworld, though, Frisk has to be somewhere on screen; and they're right in the center, with Chara having overridden their appearance to symbolize their control.

Even the direct relationship with genocide route progress and possession works here. Chara calls themselves a demon, and they're even likened to Satan with "the demon that comes when people call its name" (speak of the devil and he shall appear) and the fact that they make a deal for your soul, just like a typical deal with the devil. Demons are typically just the voices in people's heads that tempt them to do evil, and the more corrupt you are the more susceptible to demonic influence and outright possession. In the genocide route, Chara is a voice in your head, represented by the non-dialogue text boxes, and does encourage you throughout. As you become more violent throughout the game, Chara gains more control. As I said before, you can legitimately go all the way to LV 19 on a neutral route. Furthermore, if you ever abandon the genocide route by failing to kill every enemy before proceeding or sparing a pivotal enemy, it transitions to a neutral route with no sign of Chara's influence for the rest of the game. Regardless of statistics, it's only when you actively seek out monsters to kill and do so until none remain throughout the entire game, thus being as conventionally evil as you can be and furthering Chara's goal during the route of "eradicating the enemy and becoming strong", that they ever have any control; just as demons gain more control over you when you decide to indulge in whatever sins they suggest.

The currently used interpretation is a flimsy assumption that's just extremely dumb if you think about it. My proposal is consistently supported by everything the game shows and tells us, and is significantly less dumb. Also favored by Occam's razor, being the simpler theory, since people here care about that I think.

As for the world recreation feat, my head hurts. I'd probably just say they do it via Frisk, since it seems very far fetched for Chara to be able to do it themselves given their nature and isn't at all for Frisk, the person who has "total control over the timeline" heavily implied to be more than just the ability to reverse it. I considered "Low 2-C creation with Frisk's/the player's soul", but the way Chara speaks during that scene like it's a transaction implies that recreating the world is already within their power to do. Acquiring the soul just means they can control Frisk whenever they want, as in the PGPE.

Other than that, I added an "alive" key. Not really necessary, but Asriel has a key for his actually featless and barely seen pre-death child self and Monster Kid has a profile so might as well be consistent. Some of the wording and explanations are smoothened out, the summary is more substantial, and I replaced the quote with a better one.

Finally, while I forgot to apply it to the sandbox, "Chara" isn't the fallen human's canonical name. It's an easter egg reference to TFH's sprite names, starting with "truechara" for "true character", which itself is referencing how green shirt is the true character we choose the name for rather than blue shirt Frisk, whose sprite names are "mainchara" for "main character". People pretend it's clever for some reason, but Chara would be one of the dumbest and laziest names one could choose for a character aside from just the full unabridged word, and Toby is very good with names when he wants to be. Giving the character a true name at all ruins the point of having us choose their name, and this game is obviously very serious about player choices. Basically, Chara is a convenient fan nickname the internet adopted because of a misinterpreted easter egg. I was going to let it side just for convenience, but I thought it'd be better to actually voice all of my opinions in this more or less overhaul CRT.
 
Well, wasn't that a nothing burger?

Nah, it comes down to interpretation as you said, but the absurdity of saying "Chara is just a voice in our head parodying Satan that influences us and it wasn't them who destroyed the Universe" is the simpler solution is bogus at worst. Chara is implied to be in-control, and straight up shown to be controlling us in several scenes as you said. Occam's Razor of a character controlling us and saying they're controlling us is just exacly that, they are the ones in control. Their manifestation destroyed the world, they attacked, not us. You even make an attempt to debunk the sole supporting evidence to suggest Chara has enough power to pull this off, but it's incorrect. Because, no, Chara didn't use Frisk's SOUL to restore the timeline, if they did, Frisk would be able to accomplish that on their own. It's literally a baseless assumption.

Your second counter evidence is worse.
They have control in a specific point in time, just like Flowey had it beforehand.
It would be a shame if we had evidence that a stronger Determination can overcome Frisk's control-- AH GOD DAMN IT!

This point was very goofy, Chara simply had superior Determination.
heavily implied to be more than just the ability to reverse it. I considered "Low 2-C creation with Frisk's/the player's soul", but the way Chara speaks during that scene like it's a transaction implies that recreating the world is already within their power to do. Acquiring the soul just means they can control Frisk whenever they want, as in the PGPE.

Other than that, I added an "alive" key. Not really necessary, but Asriel has a key for his actually featless and barely seen pre-death child self and Monster Kid has a profile so might as well be consistent. Some of the wording and explanations are smoothened out, the summary is more substantial, and I replaced the quote with a better one.

Finally, while I forgot to apply it to the sandbox, "Chara" isn't the fallen human's canonical name. It's an easter egg reference to TFH's sprite names, starting with "truechara" for "true character", which itself is referencing how green shirt is the true character we choose the name for rather than blue shirt Frisk, whose sprite names are "mainchara" for "main character". People pretend it's clever for some reason, but Chara would be one of the dumbest and laziest names one could choose for a character aside from just the full unabridged word, and Toby is very good with names when he wants to be. Giving the character a true name at all ruins the point of having us choose their name, and this game is obviously very serious about player choices. Basically, Chara is a convenient fan nickname the internet adopted because of a misinterpreted easter egg. I was going to let it side just for convenience, but I thought it'd be better to actually voice all of my opinions in this more or less overhaul CRT.
Toby has referred to Chara by that name in several official merchandise, Livestreams and the "Easter Egg" is quite literally stating that it's the true name. We're not changing that because you dislike it.
 
Nah, it comes down to interpretation as you said, but the absurdity of saying "Chara is just a voice in our head parodying Satan that influences us and it wasn't them who destroyed the Universe" is the simpler solution is bogus at worst. Chara is implied to be in-control, and straight up shown to be controlling us in several scenes as you said. Occam's Razor of a character controlling us and saying they're controlling us is just exacly that, they are the ones in control. Their manifestation destroyed the world, they attacked, not us. You even make an attempt to debunk the sole supporting evidence to suggest Chara has enough power to pull this off, but it's incorrect. Because, no, Chara didn't use Frisk's SOUL to restore the timeline, if they did, Frisk would be able to accomplish that on their own. It's literally a baseless assumption.
This is extremely incoherent and you don't even seem to say any counterarguments, just reiterating one of the things I said (which doesn't contradict any of my other arguments), making the claim I'm arguing against with no explanation, and saying... something at the end, maybe, I'm almost sure of it.

And yeah, Chara being a demon is much simpler and more coherent than Chara being the embodiment of our megalomaniacal tendencies who periodically possesses Frisk until they leech enough power and then they pop into being with their own body and are instantly a godlike being with the power to destroy and create the world at a whim, and then in another ending they're shown to still just possess Frisk.

I'd suggest rereading my post, from top to bottom, and reiterating your argument with a clear head. Or, hell, just reading it. It seems like you skimmed it at best.
For a simple summary of my claim without the evidence, Chara used Frisk's body and strength to destroy the universe, therefore the feat does not apply to Chara.

It would be a shame if we had evidence that a stronger Determination can overcome Frisk's control-- AH GOD DAMN IT!

This point was very goofy, Chara simply had superior Determination.
Chara is a part of Frisk, reincarnated within their vessel. Frisk looking in a mirror results in the text "It's me, Chara." When talking directly to the player, they say 'My human soul. My determination. They weren't mine, but YOURS.' Frisk's and Chara's determination are the same thing.
Toby has referred to Chara by that name in several official merchandise, Livestreams and the "Easter Egg" is quite literally stating that it's the true name. We're not changing that because you dislike it.
Merch isn't canon and the easter egg part I already explained, but really it's not a big deal. Think what you want about that if it's gonna be that troublesome to convince you.
 
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my question would be why attribute the Low 2-C feat for frisk only when by your interpretation chara and the player's souls are involved
it would just be on everyone's profile
 
my question would be why attribute the Low 2-C feat for frisk only when by your interpretation chara and the player's souls are involved
it would just be on everyone's profile
It's blatantly not done through Frisk's stats, nor is it using Frisk's determination (aka the Player's Soul), as it's unwilling. It's just Chara using their determination to attack, this is further solidified when they recreate the Universe. It's goofy assuming it was Frisk's doing and Chara's strength was not the main source for this feat.

I disagree with the CRT.
 
It's blatantly not done through Frisk's stats, nor is it using Frisk's determination (aka the Player's Soul), as it's unwilling. It's just Chara using their determination to attack, this is further solidified when they recreate the Universe. It's goofy assuming it was Frisk's doing and Chara's strength was not the main source for this feat.
Stats have nothing to do with willingness, that's just their body's physical attributes :/
Chara makes a big deal out of their (Frisk's) having become strong throughout the route, by increasing their stats. If it was Chara's determination that provided the strength to nuke the universe, they could've just done it all the way back at the end of the Ruins or Snowdin, when they first start showing some control. Not to mention, we'd be able to just overkill one-shot Undyne the Undying like any other would-be boss fight.
 
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i'm not saying i agree i'm just wondering why it's indexed like that since iirc we never index stuff like that to only one profile
 
Stats have nothing to do with willingness, that's just their body's physical attributes :/
Chara makes a big deal out of their (Frisk's) having become strong throughout the route, by increasing their stats. If it was Chara's determination that provided the strength to nuke the universe, they could've just done it all the way back at the end of the Ruins or Snowdin, when they first start showing some control. Not to mention, we'd be able to just overkill one-shot Undyne the Undying like any other would-be boss fight.
It's almost like Determination isn't a constant and it grows as you advance in the story.

It's a good thing we don't have examples of determination being infinitely above stats- Ah god damn it, Infinite Attack Asriel vs 1 Def Frisk.
 
Man i was hoping this was the based multiversal upgrade for undertale.

also, why would it say 'frisk's soul' for their Universal stuff? frisk's soul is chara's, doesn't chara LITERALLY say that the soul frisk has isn't theirs, but chara's?
 
Man i was hoping this was the based multiversal upgrade for undertale.

also, why would it say 'frisk's soul' for their Universal stuff? frisk's soul is chara's, doesn't chara LITERALLY say that the soul frisk has isn't theirs, but chara's?
They say the reverse
"My human SOUL, my Determination, it wasn't mine, but yours"
In reference to the fact Chara was mistakenly believing they were the ones doing what we did.
 
They say the reverse
"My human SOUL, my Determination, it wasn't mine, but yours"
In reference to the fact Chara was mistakenly believing they were the ones doing what we did.
oh cool.

still waiting for the absolute chad thundercock to make the multiversal undertale CRT
 
Toby has referred to Chara by that name in several official merchandise, Livestreams and the "Easter Egg" is quite literally stating that it's the true name. We're not changing that because you dislike it.
Do not reference Merchandise ever again.

It isn't canon anymore since Toby's tweet about that.

But it doesn't refers to Deltarune thought
 
Btw I didn't even understood the CRT, in Russian land we name it...

"Water."
 
It really isn't. It shows Chara attacking you (if you refuse to be their partner), then an attack animation that destroys the world, with Chara being the only one there (and the one who remakes the world). It's very blatant.
 
It's almost like Determination isn't a constant and it grows as you advance in the story.

It's a good thing we don't have examples of determination being infinitely above stats- Ah god damn it, Infinite Attack Asriel vs 1 Def Frisk.
Determination matters in the pacifist route because we're faced with overwhelming opposition and we need to push ourselves to survive. In the genocide route, we are the overwhelming opposition that our enemies need to push themselves against. Determination for a casual, unopposed smack at the end would be super dumb. Determination is the will to live which allows individuals to keep fighting beyond death or ignore death entirely, not just a superpower you can turn off and on to blow up the universe if you feel like it.

I'll say again, if determination is all that ended up mattering, despite Chara specifically citing having become strong through increasing stats, the entire route was pointless. By your interpretation, Undertale has even worse writing than I thought. Chara considered "eradicating the enemy and becoming strong" their PURPOSE IN LIFE, why would they only be determined when it's pretty much already done?
 
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imagine their reaction when they found out who is demonabc and what it is
 
Chances are I've already seen it.
Pretty low.

Demonabc is a easter egg in game code.

Greetings.
demona
You have made yourself completely clear.
demonb
Understood.
demonc
I, your humble servant, will follow you to the utmost...
demond
HE IS
demonx
 
Pretty low.

Demonabc is a easter egg in game code.

Greetings.
demona
You have made yourself completely clear.
demonb
Understood.
demonc
I, your humble servant, will follow you to the utmost...
demond
HE IS
demonx
Yep, that's exactly the thing what I was thinking of. Dunno what that has to do with this though.
 
Yep, that's exactly the thing what I was thinking of. Dunno what that has to do with this though.
I'm surprised, I thought that Vsbattle Undertale community doesn't know anything about canon.
 
Always was skeptical of it since you can hear wind like noises afterwards.
Sans:
"our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting... until suddenly, everything ends. ... that's your fault, isn't it?
...
you'll keep consuming timelines over and over, until..."

There's no doubt of it being a L2C or higher feat. The wind is just for emphasis of loneliness after the matter, I'd guess.
 
Determination matters in the pacifist route because we're faced with overwhelming opposition and we need to push ourselves to survive. In the genocide route, we are the overwhelming opposition that our enemies need to push themselves against. Determination for a casual, unopposed smack at the end would be super dumb. Determination is the will to live which allows individuals to keep fighting beyond death or ignore death entirely, not just a superpower you can turn off and on to blow up the universe if you feel like it.

I'll say again, if determination is all that ended up mattering, despite Chara specifically citing having become strong through increasing stats, the entire route was pointless. By your interpretation, Undertale has even worse writing than I thought. Chara considered "eradicating the enemy and becoming strong" their PURPOSE IN LIFE, why would they only be determined when it's pretty much already done?
Oh my f-
Bullshit. Absolute bullshit, it has been SHOWN that Determination is a valid method, and a better one, at making one strong, this is seen all throughout the Genocide Run when we, a 20 DEF Character, face a 99 ATK Undyne, even though we can one shot Asgore with 99 ATK (And even less) who has 80 DEF, now, genius, how exactly do we manage to survive 99 ATK hits? And how do we one shot 80 DEF character with even less ATK?
It's through the only method shown to increase one's strength which doesn't rely on stats, Determination.

Now, are you going to claim Chara is NOT using Determination in it's strength when that's literally what's keeping them alive, and the only thing written on the save point dialogues? Again, absolute bullshit.

99 ATK isn't Low 2-C. If you want to argue something as stupid as this, you better make Undyne the Undying Low 2-C as well.
 
It has been shown that Determination is a valid method, and a better one, at making one strong. This is seen all throughout the Genocide Run when we, a 20 DEF Character, face a 99 ATK Undyne, even though we can one shot Asgore with 99 ATK (And even less) who has 80 DEF. How exactly do we manage to survive 99 ATK hits? And how do we one shot 80 DEF character with even less ATK?
It's through the only method shown to increase one's strength which doesn't rely on stats, Determination.

Now, are you going to claim Chara is not using Determination in it's strength when that's literally what's keeping them alive, and the only thing written on the save point dialogues?
Ignoring the insufferable attitude that many internet users feel free to let loose due to the luxury of anonymity, you have a point.
tumblr_inline_p0fem6xHZx1tnlh39_500.png

The first bit explains why we're able to one-shot and significantly harm monsters that are statistically much stronger than us on a genocide route, but the second bit confirms that the power of the soul, therefore also determination, is involved here, and the first doesn't explain defense. I'll backtrack to a previous point that was abandoned, since continuing this one would be arbitrary.

Chara's consciousness was reincarnated in the vessel of Frisk. When Frisk looks into a mirror on the genocide route, the text is "It's me, Chara."

Chara says this, directly to the player:
"Your power awakened me from death.
My "human soul"...
My "determination"...
They were not mine, but YOURS."

By virtue of basic logic and storytelling they can't be referring to anything but Frisk's soul and determination, the red soul, which it is said to be all the time otherwise. As Chara realizes here, Frisk's soul and determination in reality belongs to us; it's not theirs. They can just use and control it throughout the genocide route, by virtue of demonic corruption and possession. They have to persuade us into giving them full ownership of our (Frisk's) soul, which allows them to take control freely, even when we're completely clean in the ending of a pacifist route.

Chara also says:
"Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong."
This implies that Chara themselves became strong, except it still doesn't.
As they say, WE became strong. Both Chara and us, the player. Except we ourselves don't become stronger throughout the game, we're just sitting on our asses playing a video game. Instead, both Chara and we become strong through Frisk, our mutual vessel for interacting with Undertale's world.

In conclusion, it's still Frisk's power that Chara is utilizing in the ending of the genocide route and throughout. While Chara is the one who pulls the trigger on erasing the world, Frisk is the gun and bullet.
 
Ignoring the insufferable attitude that many internet users feel free to let loose due to the luxury of anonymity, you have a point.

tumblr_inline_p0fem6xHZx1tnlh39_500.png

The first bit explains why we're able to one-shot and significantly harm monsters that are statistically much stronger than us on a genocide route, but the second bit confirms that the power of the soul, therefore also determination, is involved here, and the first doesn't explain defense. I'll backtrack to a previous point that was abandoned, since continuing this one would be arbitrary.
It does not explain defense, and Undyne was as determined as us (which is why she melts), she has a 99 ATK power, thus, if stats are the sole cause of the Low 2-C feat, she has to scale. Determination allows for stronger attacks, and amplifies one's power. Chara is wielder of Determination as evidenced by their ability to manipulate the timeline. Souless creatures can develop determination after experiencing the substance, after all.
Chara's consciousness was reincarnated in the vessel of Frisk. When Frisk looks into a mirror on the genocide route, the text is "It's me, Chara."

Chara says this, directly to the player:
"Your power awakened me from death.
My "human soul"...
My "determination"...
They were not mine, but YOURS."

By virtue of basic logic and storytelling they can't be referring to anything but Frisk's--
You later admit that Chara is talking to the player, as it is a common norm for character talking directly to the screen outside of battle.
It was a common red herring to think it was referring to Frisk until it was revealed by Flowey in True Pacifist that it's actually the player, and Frisk is treated as a separate entity.

Chara is referring to the player. We take the action and have determination to kill in the Genocide route. And we are the red heart.
and determination, the red soul, which it is said to be all the time otherwise. As Chara realizes here, Frisk's soul and determination in reality belongs to us; it's not theirs. They can just use and control it throughout the genocide route, by virtue of demonic corruption and possession. They have to persuade us into giving them full ownership of our (Frisk's) soul, which allows them to take control freely, even when we're completely clean in the ending of a pacifist route.
They had to destroy the world to get full ownership of Frisk's SOUL in the future.

Thus, claiming Chara had control over said SOUL, and Determination when they destroy the world is nonsensical? Control enough to destroy the universe and recreate time and space at will, how is that any different from full control?
Chara also says:
"Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong."
This implies that Chara themselves became strong, except it still doesn't.
As they say, WE became strong. Both Chara and us, the player. Except we ourselves don't become stronger--
We're likely the Red SOUL, a common denominator in the Undertale extended Universe as seen in dialogues in the game, and Deltarune.
We do become stronger, we're an anomaly that has direct influence on the timeline, we are represented as a character/SOUL that clearly grows in strength. That's how we currently see the red SOUL.
In conclusion, it's still Frisk's power that Chara is utilizing in the ending of the genocide route and throughout. While Chara is the one who pulls the trigger on erasing the world, Frisk is the gun and bullet.
Chara is the one who destroys the Universe.
 
Figurative speech, we can't exactly measure how much determination she had. She is just outwardly determined to the point she can deny death, something only us and Flowey were shown to do. She is "higher than 9-A" as of now
I mean, the Amalgamates were more determined and one of them was 10-B
 

It's a rather easy fix. If you're frustrated, you just keep the whining and insults to yourself, maybe scream into a pillow, eat a meal, wank one or two off, come back here whenever you have a clear head and cleanly, concisely type out your arguments. Life's too short and the world's too grand to be stressing eachother out about a video game. This is meant to be a break from the real world to talk about the fictional stuff we enjoy, even if it's a debate.
That said, aside from this you seem to have mellowed out in the rest of your comment, so good job.

You later admit that Chara is talking to the player, as it is a common norm for character talking directly to the screen outside of battle.
It was a common red herring to think it was referring to Frisk until it was revealed by Flowey in True Pacifist that it's actually the player, and Frisk is treated as a separate entity.

Chara is referring to the player. We take the action and have determination to kill in the Genocide route. And we are the red heart.
I meant that when Chara says "my human soul/determination", they are referring to Frisk's soul and determination. The "weren't mine, but yours" is referring to us. No self-contradiction there.
Thus, claiming Chara had control over said SOUL, and Determination when they destroy the world is nonsensical? Control enough to destroy the universe and recreate time and space at will, how is that any different from full control?
You're not contradicting me here. I agree, they had full control by that point, by virtue of possessing them. That much is clear. Gaining "full ownership" means they aren't limited by corruption and possession and more literally are Frisk, as seen when they can take control during the ending of a saintly pacifist route and they also feel our emotions.
And now that I'm thinking about it more, they would just solidly scale to everything about Frisk after obtaining the soul, though I wouldn't add it to their page since they aren't separate physical beings at that point and it would just be a cluttered duplicate of Frisk's profile with extra keys. Multiple Selves type 1 for both of them, maybe.
We're likely the Red SOUL, a common denominator in the Undertale extended Universe as seen in dialogues in the game, and Deltarune.
We do become stronger, we're an anomaly that has direct influence on the timeline, we are represented as a character/SOUL that clearly grows in strength. That's how we currently see the red SOUL.
Good point, though that was more just supporting reasoning.
Chara is the one who destroys the Universe.
If I throw a grenade at someone and the grenade's explosion turns them into a pile of blood and gore, it was me who killed that person but the grenade would be rated as 9-B~ for it. I dunno how to better analogize it.
 
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