Chara BDE and NEP additions

[StrymULTRA]

Just few things I noticed about the character.

After seeing Zeno and Alien X profile, I noticed that it's technically possible to add "History & Space-Time" to EE degrees, so I decided to join in as well.

To begin, as noted in both the Cosmology Blog and the Type 2 Information Manipulation on their profile, Chara has destroyed the game entirely and all of its reality and timelines, and then, as said already for their NEP, Chara spoke as the void left after said destruction, as made evident from their lack of a SOUL, making them nonexistent at least at the degree that the game was left after said erasure.

I think Chara should also have Type 5 Aspect for the NEP, considering that the files in Undertale make up the world within it, and Chara obviously destroyed all of the space-time, and each of the timelines also have their individual history given the 0whole stuff about DT users being able to SAVE in order to take whatever path and ending they want in each timelines, making it clear they lack also these two aspects.

Another thing is adding Type 1 BDE to their Nonexistent being, as they should have no reason to still have dimensioned attributes, given they're within a void that lacks space-time entirely.

EDIT: Forgot that given the letter given in the Autumn 2024 newsletter, Chara is confirmed to be linked with the Number 9, which represents their desire of becoming the strongest, as shown by also opponents getting damage in only "9s" when Chara takes over unlike other enemies, meaning that their AE1 should become a full instead of a possibly.

New justifications would be these:

Spoiler: Pre-Death (no host)

Immortality (Types 1, 5, 6 and 7), Incorporeality, Abstract Existence (Type 1), Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1) and Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, Aspect Types 1, 4 and 5 [Space-Time and History]: Lost both their body and soul after dying while having their soul combined with Asriel's, the latter collapsing into dust and his soul disappearing, reducing them to a nonexistent being who needs to possess hosts such as Frisk in order to interact with the world again. Flowey described them as empty inside just like him, him lacking a soul. Despite being unable to interact with the world by their own, they should still have similar traits as their Absolute self)

Spoiler: Absolute

Space-Time Manipulation, Reality Warping, Information Manipulation (Type 2) and Existence Erasure (Type 2 Information, Space-Time and History. Erased the entirety of "Undertale" as a reality, destroying the game world alongside all of its files, timelines and histories, with attempts to reverse the damage through messing with the game files being ineffective. Should be comparable to Frisk and restored the entire game world with possibly a TRUE RESET)

Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, Aspect Types 1, 4 and 5 [Space-Time and History]. Implied to still be in a nonexistent state even after getting enough DETERMINATION to being able to interact with the world from their own again, as they talked as the void left after the destruction of the game, with later on saying that their human soul wasn't actually theirs, but "yours")

Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1. Should lack space-time features as they are a nonexistent entity that is within the void left after the erasure of "Undertale" and the files that make up its existence and the timelines within it)

Abstract Existence (Type 1. Became the player's feeling of increasing their statistics, which is showcased by also their link with the number 9 as it represents Chara's desire to become the strongest, or also by opponents getting damage in only "9s" when Chara takes over unlike other enemies)

This also updates The Player, Frisk and Asriel's degrees of EE and their resistances to it.

 

[Monsters_fight]

I agree

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I’m ngl, History and Space-Time EEs are somewhat “OP” on this wiki but they always sounded dumb to me since anyone with basic Uni+ DC technically erases them as well.

Being within the void should not grant BDE. It’s about one’s existence. You can exist in BDE Type 1 or even Outerversal structures, but this would not make you BDE and/or Outer. It’s like saying I have all properties of my house.

Also I don’t think there is any information on Chara being NEP in Information. Lacking SOUL is one thing, but this does not really translate onto basic block of the world. Also Chara having NEP in Information would downgrade their durability, since this means they survived via hax, wouldn’t it?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I’m ngl, History and Space-Time EEs are somewhat “OP” on this wiki but they always sounded dumb to me since anyone with basic Uni+ DC technically erases them as well.

Make a site wide CRT :V

Being within the void should not grant BDE. It’s about one’s existence. You can exist in BDE Type 1 or even Outerversal structures, but this would not make you BDE and/or Outer. It’s like saying I have all properties of my house.

This is a false equivalence as here Chara is displayed as clearly speaking as said void, without using any physical body. Occam's Razor says that they share similar properties because of nothing really saying they're more "existent" than whatever is left from the game, from what we saw.

If this was a case of, idk, Asriel, then I'd have disagreed because of him still being a clearly physical entity. But here? Chara clearly is not a physical entity, as they're the very feeling of the Player's stats increasing (I should include in OP, forgot to do so). I do think they're a special case here.

Also Chara having NEP in Information would downgrade their durability, since this means they survived via hax, wouldn’t it?

Did you deadass forget that they still scale from Frisk, who survived that attack?

Plus DT here is accepted as increasing all the stats the same, so this is a moot point anyway.

Regardless ye, adding the AE 1 point, it should be a full thing than a likely, given the whole 9 thing that Chara is blatanlty linked to.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Make a site wide CRT :V

It was a personal complaint.

This is a false equivalence as here Chara is displayed as clearly speaking as said void, without using any physical body. Occam's Razor says that they share similar properties because of nothing really saying they're more "existent" than whatever is left from the game, from what we saw.

If this was a case of, idk, Asriel, then I'd have disagreed because of him still being a clearly physical entity. But here? Chara clearly is not a physical entity, as they're the very feeling of the Player's stats increasing (I should include in OP, forgot to do so). I do think they're a special case here.

Did you deadass forget that they still scale from Frisk, who survived that attack?

From my PoV, we don’t see Chara physically because our host is dead, but eh, forgot Frisk here survived the destruction smh (which is dumb given that they were just a vessel for both Chara and Player, but I’m not going over that).

Plus DT here is accepted as increasing all the stats the same, so this is a moot point anyway.

Wait, is that the same person who was debating with me all the time that Frisk should be a stonewall on my Frisk 2-B upgrade?

Regardless ye, adding the AE 1 point, it should be a full thing than a likely, given the whole 9 thing that Chara is blatanlty linked to.

Agree with this fully, also the fact that Chara’s full summoning fails if you fail to increase your stats to maximum possible (aka abort Genocide Route).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Alright... Cracks Fingers.

Wait, is that the same person who was debating with me all the time that Frisk should be a stonewall on my Frisk 2-B upgrade?

Maybe because your arguments were filled with a bunch of assumption to the point it was fanfiction there, while instead I still managed to do so by using actual arguments with more basis and official sources.

Maybe don't start to throw venom and hisses just because eh? I do think Frisk is 2-B in both AP and Dura, but not for the reasons you think it is. Drop this, because it's irrelevant to the point and and seemingly an attempt to cause tension.

Won't reply to the rest because it's fluff/complaints that don't add anything.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Maybe because your arguments were filled with a bunch of assumption to the point it was fanfiction there, while instead I still managed to do so by using actual arguments with more basis and official sources.

It’s not fanfiction? Holding back downgrading your AP is a very well known fact in UT. You just denied it desperately. And your argument was entirely different and I can debunk it easily, but I won’t because 2-B Frisk is good

Maybe don't start to throw venom and hisses just because eh? I do think Frisk is 2-B in both AP and Dura, but not for the reasons you think it is. Drop this, because it's irrelevant to the point and and seemingly an attempt to cause tension.

It is relevant, because you were arguing that DT does not upscale all of your stats equally, but now you do. I genuinely don’t get the logic, sorry.

Won't reply to the rest because it's fluff/complaints that don't add anything.

Cruel but fair.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Orange, I think I'm your friend (maybe), but I'll reply to these one last time because it's derailing the thread entirely, given that you're arguing a stats increase in a thread regarding a hax, basing on already accepted arguments.

I know you love to always have the last word, but I'll just warn you to drop this, because I will report you for derailment and throwing drama for the sake of it. If you don't like how some stuff is accepted here, then change it in another thread.

It’s not fanfiction? Holding back downgrading your AP is a very well known fact in UT. You just denied it desperately. And your argument was entirely different and I can debunk it easily, but I won’t because 2-B Frisk is good

This screams mad spite and dishonesty. If you're just gonna say "I disagree but I'll keep it anyway", then don't say it because it does not add anything.

It is relevant, because you were arguing that DT does not upscale all of your stats equally, but now you do. I genuinely don’t get the logic, sorry.

I used to because I was not aware of the Player-Frisk thing, as I thought it was exclusive to Chara, and my CRT changed that belief.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I used to because I was not aware of the Player-Frisk thing, as I thought it was exclusive to Chara, and my CRT changed that belief.

What is the reasoning anyway? Omega Flowey has no scan for his SS.

If you want to go your way, then change the durability justification.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What is the reasoning anyway?

Both Frisk and Chara using the Player's DT to increase their power.

Omega Flowey has no scan for his SS.

That should go in its own thread (and even then I explained why it scales in the upgrade CRT). Last chance, drop this.

If you want to go your way, then change the durability justification.

For Chara? Sure.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

That should go in its own thread (and even then I explained why it scales in the upgrade CRT). Last chance, drop this.

Stop with the threats. I was just saying that I did not find the reasoning behind this in Omega Flowey profile that you upgraded. I can’t express the reasons behind why I don’t understand your justification for the Chara durability (which is directly affected by this CRT of yours) anymore?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

EDIT: Forgot that given the letter given in the Autumn 2024 newsletter, Chara is confirmed to be linked with the Number 9, which represents their desire of becoming the strongest, as shown by also opponents getting damage in only "9s" when Chara takes over unlike other enemies, meaning that their AE1 should become a full instead of a possibly.

I don't really get the link between this and Chara being the pure abstraction of increasing stats. Just really tells us that when Chara reached the Absolute and became the strongest they started dealing the highest amount of damage possible (According to them at least).

I can't find the thread where Chara originally got the possible AE, but I assume the reason it's a possibly is cause it can be read non-literally, which this doesn't really change?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't really get the link between this and Chara being the pure abstraction of increasing stats. Just really tells us that when Chara reached the Absolute and became the strongest they started dealing the highest amount of damage possible (According to them at least).

This.

I think it's more a narrative implication because of the letter explaining why Chara likes the Number 9, because it's linked to their desire to become stronger and stronger until becoming an unsurpassable peak. That does fit in their statement of them becoming the statistical increase itself, because of it linking in said desire they always had, and finally being able to destroy the world with the 9s once they got enough power.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Just few things I noticed about the character.

After seeing Zeno and Alien X profile, I noticed that it's technically possible to add "History & Space-Time" to EE degrees, so I decided to join in as well.

To begin, as noted in both the Cosmology Blog and the Type 2 Information Manipulation on their profile, Chara has destroyed the game entirely and all of its reality and timelines, and then, as said already for their NEP, Chara spoke as the void left after said destruction, as made evident from their lack of a SOUL, making them nonexistent at least at the degree that the game was left after said erasure.

I think Chara should also have Type 5 Aspect for the NEP, considering that the files in Undertale make up the world within it, and Chara obviously destroyed all of the space-time, and each of the timelines also have their individual history given the 0whole stuff about DT users being able to SAVE in order to take whatever path and ending they want in each timelines, making it clear they lack also these two aspects.

Another thing is adding Type 1 BDE to their Nonexistent being, as they should have no reason to still have dimensioned attributes, given they're within a void that lacks space-time entirely.

EDIT: Forgot that given the letter given in the Autumn 2024 newsletter, Chara is confirmed to be linked with the Number 9, which represents their desire of becoming the strongest, as shown by also opponents getting damage in only "9s" when Chara takes over unlike other enemies, meaning that their AE1 should become a full instead of a possibly.

New justifications would be these:

Spoiler: Pre-Death (no host)

Immortality (Types 1, 5, 6 and 7), Incorporeality, Abstract Existence (Type 1), Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1) and Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, Aspect Types 1, 4 and 5 [Space-Time and History]: Lost both their body and soul after dying while having their soul combined with Asriel's, the latter collapsing into dust and his soul disappearing, reducing them to a nonexistent being who needs to possess hosts such as Frisk in order to interact with the world again. Flowey described them as empty inside just like him, him lacking a soul. Despite being unable to interact with the world by their own, they should still have similar traits as their Absolute self)

Spoiler: Absolute

Space-Time Manipulation, Reality Warping, Information Manipulation (Type 2) and Existence Erasure (Type 2 Information, Space-Time and History. Erased the entirety of "Undertale" as a reality, destroying the game world alongside all of its files, timelines and histories, with attempts to reverse the damage through messing with the game files being ineffective. Should be comparable to Frisk and restored the entire game world with possibly a TRUE RESET)

Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, Aspect Types 1, 4 and 5 [Space-Time and History]. Implied to still be in a nonexistent state even after getting enough DETERMINATION to being able to interact with the world from their own again, as they talked as the void left after the destruction of the game, with later on saying that their human soul wasn't actually theirs, but "yours")

Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1. Should lack space-time features as they are a nonexistent entity that is within the void left after the erasure of "Undertale" and the files that make up its existence and the timelines within it)

Abstract Existence (Type 1. Became the player's feeling of increasing their statistics, which is showcased by also their link with the number 9 as it represents Chara's desire to become the strongest, or also by opponents getting damage in only "9s" when Chara takes over unlike other enemies)

This also updates The Player, Frisk and Asriel's degrees of EE and their resistances to it.

I agree with OP for now, but Alien X's History EE is due to the history (past - present - future) related to time, as Alien X and Annihilarrgh can destroy time means destroy history

 

[StrymULTRA]

I agree with OP for now, but Alien X's History EE is due to the history (past - present - future) related to time, as Alien X and Annihilarrgh can destroy time means destroy history

I am aware, just that I found a similarity with Undertale's given that each timeline created by the DT user has its own course of fate and ending, meaning that each timeline has its own separate history.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I need see Sans in Tier 0

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

I am aware, just that I found a similarity with Undertale's given that each timeline created by the DT user has its own course of fate and ending, meaning that each timeline has its own separate history.

Ok, this make sense

 

[Planck69]

The addition seems fine.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright.