Cairne Bloodhoof vs Grommash Hellscream (3/3/0)

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Ah, the day in the life of VSBW, where 2 people filibuster each other into a stalemate.
FR, I'm going to read the past like, last 3 pages twice to get a feel of each other's arguments, and then I'll do the staff-inspired move of just... asking both sides what their main argument is fundementally.

I'm gonna keep my word to Pepper and try to end the debate. but I'm mostly here to continue the filibuster stalemate

 

[Peppersalt43]

I'm gonna keep my word to Pepper and try to end the debate

Thanks

 

[Peppersalt43]

Anyway, bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Ebihara]

I read through the slog that was pages 2 and 3 as best as I could and I think its close but I am gonna vote grommash.

 

[Peppersalt43]

I read through the slog that was pages 2 and 3 as best as I could and I think its close but I am gonna vote grommash.

Finally

 

[Peppersalt43]

Anyway, 3 more votes to grace!

 

[Peppersalt43]

Come on...

 

[Greatsage13th]

The dedication of this guy.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Looks like I'm going to have to take notes to see who's telling the truth more. I'm pretty much more likely to volunteer on debating forever, mainly since knowing the small details and empathizing of people would break up the impasse here.

I've been situations like these before. One of (not always) the reasons of why arguments go in circles is due to one or both sides not understanding the other's argument.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Looks like I'm going to have to take notes to see who's telling the truth more. I'm pretty much more likely to volunteer on debating forever, mainly since knowing the small details and empathizing of people would break up the impasse here.

I've been situations like these before. One of (not always) the reasons of why arguments go in circles is due to one or both sides not understanding the other's argument.

TBF a big thing of it is that if you don't walk on glass with WoW scaling you're going to end up in a bad place, frankly I've looked into Thrall more recently and Grom has another one-shot added to his scaling.

literally this entire debate was on scaling because things get fucky very quickly if you do shit improperly, and me and Udl have pretty differing opinions on how to scale this verse lol

 

[Ebihara]

TBF a big thing of it is that if you don't walk on glass with WoW scaling you're going to end up in a bad place, frankly I've looked into Thrall more recently and Grom has another one-shot added to his scaling.

literally this entire debate was on scaling because things get fucky very quickly if you do shit improperly, and me and Udl have pretty differing opinions on how to scale this verse lol

Ive played wow a long time and never thought about the powerscaling of it till recently. the scaling always seemed so wonky and random for the player that i was like ehhh and just didnt think about it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ive played wow a long time and never thought about the powerscaling of it till recently. the scaling always seemed so wonky and random for the player that i was like ehhh and just didnt think about it.

Eh, honestly looking back on it I'm glad for being properly contested on this verse for once lol

 

[Udlmaster]

My main view on the game is linear power prog until Legion where we start getting borrowed power.

BFA our power drops but not infinitely so, considering N'zoth had the power to create a Timeline and was planning on fusing the two timelines into one.

Then our power goes back up in Shadowlands with the stupid "Pantheon of Death are Titan+" and then Zovaal is like above even that.

Blah blah blah. Alexstrasza is canonically above Sargeras, I will be taking no further questions.

 

[Ebihara]

My main view on the game is linear power prog until Legion where we start getting borrowed power.

BFA our power drops but not infinitely so, considering N'zoth had the power to create a Timeline and was planning on fusing the two timelines into one.

Then our power goes back up in Shadowlands with the stupid "Pantheon of Death are Titan+" and then Zovaal is like above even that.

Blah blah blah. Alexstrasza is canonically above Sargeras, I will be taking no further questions.

aight little off topic but this thread has been that way for 2 years now. where would you tier the players then. spitball

 

[Udlmaster]

aight little off topic but this thread has been that way for 2 years now. where would you tier the players then. spitball

Like Low 2-C pretty easily.

In Legion they kill Argus who's enrage timer ability literally ended the Universe.

They fell off for most of BFA but then rose again when N'zoth appeared at full power, with the power of the Heart of Azeroth they defeated N'zoth who created a whole timeline where the Black Empire won and planned on fusing it with the main timeline to basically autowin. We know it's a real place you can go to as well since the players have to farm their dailies there lmao.

Later on in Shadowlands with no borrowed power (besides Animus which we never used ourselves) we defeated several beings on or above the levels of the Titans, which again puts the Players at Low 2-C.

They could be higher, like maybe 2-C or above, but no higher.

 

[Ebihara]

Like Low 2-C pretty easily.

In Legion they kill Argus who's enrage timer ability literally ended the Universe.

They fell off for most of BFA but then rose again when N'zoth appeared at full power, with the power of the Heart of Azeroth they defeated N'zoth who created a whole timeline where the Black Empire won and planned on fusing it with the main timeline to basically autowin. We know it's a real place you can go to as well since the players have to farm their dailies there lmao.

Later on in Shadowlands with no borrowed power (besides Animus which we never used ourselves) we defeated several beings on or above the levels of the Titans, which again puts the Players at Low 2-C.

They could be higher, like maybe 2-C or above, but no higher.

I could see that. what would we need to fight to go even higher.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Wait, so you guys are telling me this is more of a 2 different views from 2 different people, seeing the same coin?

That in of itself is very subjective and would be like saying there is a diffinitive answer to what 2 different flavorful chips are better. The best thing I can do here from a guy that barely knows about the verse is see which view is more consistent.

 

[Udlmaster]

I could see that. what would we need to fight to go even higher.

Probably the First Ones.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Wait, so you guys are telling me this is more of a 2 different views from 2 different people, seeing the same coin?

That in of itself is very subjective and would be like saying there is a diffinitive answer to what 2 different flavorful chips are better. The best thing I can do here from a guy that barely knows about the verse is see which view is more consistent.

Currently scaling folks like Mannoroth and not scaling to Fel Grom favors me, but that's because I made the profiles so what I feel is right, which is more conservative, is what's technically accepted.

Like Low 2-C pretty easily.

In Legion they kill Argus who's enrage timer ability literally ended the Universe.

They fell off for most of BFA but then rose again when N'zoth appeared at full power, with the power of the Heart of Azeroth they defeated N'zoth who created a whole timeline where the Black Empire won and planned on fusing it with the main timeline to basically autowin. We know it's a real place you can go to as well since the players have to farm their dailies there lmao.

Later on in Shadowlands with no borrowed power (besides Animus which we never used ourselves) we defeated several beings on or above the levels of the Titans, which again puts the Players at Low 2-C.

They could be higher, like maybe 2-C or above, but no higher.

As for this, pre-cosmology maybe upgrading this BS to tier 1, yeah basically this since I REALLY do not feel like contesting Low 2-C Old Gods right now

Probably the First Ones.

And this is correct too

 

[Udlmaster]

As for this, pre-cosmology maybe upgrading this BS to tier 1, yeah basically this since I REALLY do not feel like contesting Low 2-C Old Gods right now

I remember Midas tried contesting Low 2-C Old Gods but ended up failing and diverting the conversation because I actually had a quote from the 8.3 trailer saying the Nightmares were another Universe or something to that effect

 

[DaReaperMan]

I remember Midas tried contesting Low 2-C Old Gods but ended up failing and diverting the conversation because I actually had a quote from the 8.3 trailer saying the Nightmares were another Universe or something to that effect

my problem is mostly physical scaling, like, I'm fine with Old Gods having tier 2 ED, they had good reason to have it on their original profiles, but I'm iffy on the physical scaling. Old God scaling is weird at the best of times but then there's the chains connecting themselves to Old God scaling... that being Titan Keepers and through them, Dragon Aspects.

It's one of those things I feel is too shaky because it is VERY easy to just scream outlier at it considering the 5-B feats are considered impressive, and then we have things like Xal'atath harming good ol' N'zoth wielded by Wrathion. Without adventurer scaling, which has more backscaling problems than anything, it's a massive weird bundle of crap.

And outside of them literally REQUIRING cosmology to be made properly, that's why I haven't made Old Gods, I need to settle on tiers for them first.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Lol. Don't tell me I reignited the fire in this Var.

 

[Udlmaster]

that being Titan Keepers

Well, we don't really see the Titan Keepers ever actually fight the Old Gods directly, iirc.

In fact, I remember there being a statement that they couldn't fight them and had to use magic to overwhelm and then trap them, like Loken tricking all C'thun's Cthraxxi into thinking everyone but the Keepers were enemies.

As far as I remember, the Old Gods themselves were less plungered into their Prisons and just had Titanic Magic and Technology.

This is also backed up by Titan Keepers usually losing or drawing with major Old God minions, like Tyr had to self-detonate to kill Zakajz and didn't even end up killing Kith'ix.

So we can firmly say that Titan Keepers aren't really on the level of the Old Gods, especially not at their full power.

Dragon Aspects.

That one is easy to resolve. We know Deathwing, who's far more powerful than the other aspects after they lost a portion of their power and Deathwing continued to be given more power by the Old Gods was put on a pike on top of Wyrmrest Temple during the End Time dungeon where the Old Gods are released.

We can definitely say they're way more powerful since they literally Off-screened Deathwing.

Xal'atath harming good ol' N'zoth wielded by Wrathion.

Yeah, but isn't the implication that it's the Blade of the Black Empire doing all the Work, not Wrathion. Wrathion was just the deliverer with no return policy.

Considering that artifact was able to nullify the Fel energy coming from Gorshalach/Gorribal, I'm not all that surprised.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Well, we don't really see the Titan Keepers ever actually fight the Old Gods directly, iirc.

In fact, I remember there being a statement that they couldn't fight them and had to use magic to overwhelm and then trap them, like Loken tricking all C'thun's Cthraxxi into thinking everyone but the Keepers were enemies.

As far as I remember, the Old Gods themselves were less plungered into their Prisons and just had Titanic Magic and Technology.

This is also backed up by Titan Keepers usually losing or drawing with major Old God minions, like Tyr had to self-detonate to kill Zakajz and didn't even end up killing Kith'ix.

So we can firmly say that Titan Keepers aren't really on the level of the Old Gods, especially not at their full power.

On this, yeah, maybe, it's mostly something I say puts Old Gods in the same ballpark but sort of distantly above TKs. There's reasons for scaling and not scaling strewn about.

That one is easy to resolve. We know Deathwing, who's far more powerful than the other aspects after they lost a portion of their power and Deathwing continued to be given more power by the Old Gods was put on a pike on top of Wyrmrest Temple during the End Time dungeon where the Old Gods are released.

We can definitely say they're way more powerful since they literally Off-screened Deathwing.

We only know that Deathwing's essence was torn apart(since that is directly stated to be the only way to kill him via Alexstrasza), so chances are he just got haxxed lol

Should also note it's like... iffy on him actually being above the other aspects before Cataclysm. It's stated but Alexstrasza literally harmed him by giving him a good smack on the Elementium plates, it's Cataclysm, which we have statements he's stronger in, that any aspect that tried to 1v1 him gets dogwalked.

Yeah, but isn't the implication that it's the Blade of the Black Empire doing all the Work, not Wrathion. Wrathion was just the deliverer with no return policy.

Considering that artifact was able to nullify the Fel energy coming from Gorshalach/Gorribal, I'm not all that surprised.

Fair, i was moreso thinking about Xal'atath itself, since Wrathion... I mean he's half the reason Anduin even smells 5-B on his profile, you can argue him to be in the conversation but like... he's probably the weakest part because him scaling that high is plagued by him having more Ls than OG Blackhand whenever he fights the 5-Bs of the verse.

Why is it that I can't talk about WoW scaling without going on like 3 seperate tangents vaguely related lmfao

Anyways, the point was does this even scale to N'zoth's physicals? Because I've had to make that distinction a frustrating amount of times! Only reason Anduin doesn't is because he tends to **** over things he can **** over with his magic anyway!

 

[Peppersalt43]

uh, bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

bump