Broly vs Giga Bowser

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

I mean...I'd like to see a link to where this was decided? I'm unsure how multipliers would put Goku above Whis, his upper limits are unknown and it's established that he's so far above the lot of characters in DBS that legitimately fight that the default assumption should be that he's simply far above any peak that say Goku would reach with heretofore accepted multipliers.

 

[Huesito88]

I...don't remember.

We need to contact Matt =P

 

[Sptflcrw]

ChosenOrDeath wrote: And to answer your question, no. Said Goku in question couldn't do any chip damage to an extremely restrained Jiren. What makes you think he can do it to a Jiren who broke his limits and received a boost?

Actual lie. UIO1 Goku hits Jiren right in the gut dead on, which very clearly does damage.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Whis's 72 Quadrillion c feat is his casual flight speed, where as his combat speed is technically overwhelmingly greater than that to an unknown extent. Though, there was another calc that put him at Quintillions of C iirc. Beerus 56 quadrillion C flight feat was considered legit to scale to various 3-A character's combat speed, which Beerus' own combat speed is also much greater than his flight speed.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Sptficrw .... Then you remember at that point he was holding back ludicrously and was nowhere near even a hint of his true power. He literally stopped Full Powered UIO Goku's full attack with a hand just before he reverted back to Base.... To show he wasn't using his power and was just toying with him completely.

 

[GyroNutz]

bump

 

[Sptflcrw]

@Sptficrw .... Then you remember at that point he was holding back ludicrously and was nowhere near even a hint of his true power. He literally stopped Full Powered UIO Goku's full attack with a hand just before he reverted back to Base.... To show he wasn't using his power and was just toying with him completely.

Doesn't matter. The fact that he could do any damage at all shows that he could do chip damage to Jiren. Anyway, Giga Bowser stomps. Can we close this?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Doesn't matter. The fact that he could do any damage at all shows that he could do chip damage to Jiren. Anyway, Giga Bowser stomps. Can we close this?

Jiren had "chip damage" from Goku's attacks because he lowered himself onto an even playing field where he could be effected by Goku's attacks.

That doesn't prove anything.

Also, I am 99% sure that Low 2-C Smash isn't going to be a thing after the upgrades go through, but even if it is, by scaling, Jiren stomps badly.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I still am not buying that the boosts in this one arc are as high as people are hyping them up to be.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I still am not buying that the boosts in this one arc are as high as people are hyping them up to be.

Here's a blog that shows the large gaps in power that Goku goes through in the arc.

 

[Akreious]

@Sptficrw .... Then you remember at that point he was holding back ludicrously and was nowhere near even a hint of his true power. He literally stopped Full Powered UIO Goku's full attack with a hand just before he reverted back to Base.... To show he wasn't using his power and was just toying with him completely.

Doesn't matter. The fact that he could do any damage at all shows that he could do chip damage to Jiren. Anyway, Giga Bowser stomps. Can we close this?

Yes...

Chip Damage against an enemy that purposefully lowered themselves to a level so that you even have a chance of doing any damage.

The same enemy that later stopped your enraged full powered punch with their palm with absolute casualness.

Also the same one that after 3 power ups does he finally even show a glimpse of his true power...

How does this show that first UIO Goku is able to chip damage 100% Jiren again?

"I still am not buying that the boosts in this one arc are as high as people are hyping them up to be."

Goku went from losing instantly with one neck chop to nearly blowing up the Universe in one arc.

Vegeta went from being 1-shot to completely and utterly dominating his enemy in Goku Black Arc

Goku went from getting pummeled as a SSB against the U6 Saiyans to mostly besting them as only a SSG, not even a SSB. In less than 5 episodes.

And it's not the individual differences and boosts that matters, it's the fact that all these boosts stack up hard.

 

[Sptflcrw]

Here's a blog that shows the large gaps in power that Goku goes through in the arc.

This blog is shit. LSS2 Kale isn't even a thing. It's just a controlled version of LSS. Nothing implies it's stronger, let alone twice as strong as LSS. LSS1 Kefla isn't comparable to the Spirit Bomb either. Whis' comparison describes Kefla as a cataclyst for UIO, like the Spirit Bomb. That doesn't mean LSS1 is equal to the Spirit Bomb. Nothing implies that post-2nd UIO SSB Goku is stronger that UIO1 Goku. SSBKK Goku isn't comparable to Hint of True Power Jiren, he had help from SSBE Vegeta and even then they got curbstomped. And nothing implies that post-2nd UIO SSBKK Goku is stronger than UIO2 Goku. Post-3rd UIO Goku is absolutely not stronger than Golden Frieza and Android 17. Not only did Golden Frieza and Android 17 weaken the blast before Goku stopped it, Frieza and 17 were also both heavily weakened at the time. Broly Saga Base Goku is absolutely not stronger than Broly Saga SSG Vegeta, nor is Broly Saga SS1 Goku surperior to post-2nd UIO SSB Goku. He uses stuff from the light novel, which we don't accept. Beerus isn't comparable to UIO3 Goku, considering that even a massively surpressed Jiren was stated to be stronger than Beerus. And Broly Saga SSB Goku isn't comparable to UIO3 Goku. But even if all of this was true, Giga Bowser would STILL have the AP advantage.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Statements and feats are the implications, as detailed in the blog. They prove you wrong.

Just because you don't believe in something that is shown to you, and makes your own interpretations, doesn't mean you're right.

If you have questions with the blog, you can always speak to the one who wrote it.

 

[Sptflcrw]

The blog constantly will say something, and just move on without any evidence to prove it.

My "interpretations" aren't even interpretations. The blog will take "feats" out of context all the time.

We don't even accept the blog. I don't need to go to every CRT I disagree with. Nor do I need to respond to every blog I disagree with.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The blog constantly will say something, and just move on without any evidence to prove it.
My "interpretations" aren't even interpretations. The blog will take "feats" out of context all the time.

We don't even accept the blog. I don't need to go to every CRT I disagree with. Nor do I need to respond to every blog I disagree with.

The blog will say something, and then have a video showing what was said. It gives the context straight up.

Where are you getting any of this from?

And you are wrong, that line of thinking is how we power scale Dragon Ball Super characters on the wiki - if you have a problem with it, then you should debate it.

If you don't - then why are you complaining?

 

[Peter1129]

@Warren Give up Warren. Sptflcrw has a track record for disagreeing with the DBS scaling in multiple threads even though evidence were presented. Last time in the Goku upgrade thread he called stuff that happened in the anime and consistent official statements that are talking about stuff from the anime as mixing canon, from the manga and head canon.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Fine. I got school tomorrow anyway.

 

[Sptflcrw]

No it won't. It'll say stuff like post-2nd UIO SSB Goku is stronger that UIO1 Goku without any video evidence or scans or anything.

Literally read the blog.

No we don't. Plenty of people in the comments of that blog disagree, we treat Broly Saga Goku and Vegeta as equals, we don't treat Base Goku as stronger than ToP Golden Frieza and 17 combined. If that was the case, we would have Broly Saga SSJ and above as Low 2-C, but we don't.

I'm not complaining. You provided the blog as evidence that Broly has the AP advantage, and I'm telling you that the blog is false. But even ignoring all this, I'm gonna be generous and say everything in that blog is true. Even then, Giga Bowser would STILL have a huge AP advantage.

 

[Peter1129]

Post-2nd UIS SSB Goku being stronger than the First UIS was something that was accepted by the wiki quite a while ago.

The only thing people disagreed with in the comments was the legitimacy of a severely weakened Post-UI Base Goku being stronger than 17 and Golden Frieza at the end of the ToP. Which doesn't really matter since that's just a supporting feat. During the Broly arc we literally see Goku having much better feats in Base and SS1. The light novel which acts as support material also confirms what we see in the movie.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

There's not a single even secondary canon novel in all of Dragon Ball.

 

[Sptflcrw]

Post-2nd UIS SSB Goku being stronger than the First UIS was something that was accepted by the wiki quite a while ago.
The only thing people disagreed with in the comments was the legitimacy of a severely weakened Post-UI Base Goku being stronger than 17 and Golden Frieza at the end of the ToP. Which doesn't really matter since that's just a supporting feat. During the Broly arc we literally see Goku having much better feats in Base and SS1. The light novel which acts as support material also confirms what we see in the movie.

No we don't. We accept SSBKK Goku as stronger than UIO1. You also claim that Base Goku is stronger than SSG Vegeta. We don't even accept the novel.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

" We don't even accept the novel."

Where does this come from? I don't recall there being a thread where that was agreed on.

 

[GyroNutz]

What novel?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

DBS Broly novel

 

[Sptflcrw]

" We don't even accept the novel."
Where does this come from? I don't recall there being a thread where that was agreed on.

First of all, it doesn't work like that. You need to prove that we should accept the novel, not the other way around. Second of all, we don't accept the freaking manga, why on earth would we accept the novel?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Broly stomps via that huge scaling chain, and Giga Bowser lacks hax to make up for the AP gap.

 

[Sptflcrw]

Broly stomps via that huge scaling chain, and Giga Bowser lacks hax to make up for the AP gap.

No, he doesn't. Giga Bowser is the one with the AP advantage. Dialga is low 2-C via existing, Arceus is far surperior to him, and Master Hand views Arceus as a toy. Crazy Hand is equal to Master Hand, and Giga Bowser is stronger than both of them put together.

 

[Warren_Valion]

First of all, it doesn't work like that. You need to prove that we should accept the novel, not the other way around. Second of all, we don't accept the freaking manga, why on earth would we accept the novel?

Because the novel is just a retelling of what happened in the movie.

It's a novelization of the Broly Movie.

The manga has its own canon separate from the anime, that's why it isn't accepted because they are two different canons - the same can't be said for the Broly Movie.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

"First of all, it doesn't work like that. You need to prove that we should accept the novel, not the other way around. Second of all, we don't accept the freaking manga, why on earth would we accept the novel?"

What are you talking about? The manga not being the same canon as the anime has been discussed multiple times. You said "We don't even accept the novel" so I asked you for where it was discussed that the novel isn't accepted.

 

[Sptflcrw]

Because the novel is just a retelling of what happened in the movie.

It's a novelization of the Broly Movie.

The manga has its own canon separate from the anime, that's why it isn't accepted because they are two different canons - the same can't be said for the Broly Movie.

DBZ Kai is just a retelling of the manga, and the first 2 arcs of DBS are just retellings of the first two DBS movies. That doesn't mean we accept DBZ Kai or the first two DBS movies.

 

[Sptflcrw]

"First of all, it doesn't work like that. You need to prove that we should accept the novel, not the other way around. Second of all, we don't accept the freaking manga, why on earth would we accept the novel?"
What are you talking about? The manga not being the same canon as the anime has been discussed multiple times. You said "We don't even accept the novel" so I asked you for where it was discussed that the novel isn't accepted.

I can literally say the same thing. Where was it discussed that we do accept the novel? Burden of proof is on you.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I never said the novel was accepted. You said that We do not accept the novel so I wanted to know where multiple people agreed not to accept the novel.

 

[Warren_Valion]

DBZ Kai is just a retelling of the manga, and the first 2 arcs of DBS are just retellings of the first two DBS movies. That doesn't mean we accept DBZ Kai or the first two DBS movies.

We don't accept Kai because it has multiple contradiction to the original source material.

The first two arcs are retold in the series. For consistency sake, we go with Super's canon, not the movie.

Nothing you have said proves anything.

 

[Sptflcrw]

I never said the novel was accepted. You said that We do not accept the novel so I wanted to know where multiple people agreed not to accept the novel.

No. If something hasn't been discussed, we don't accept it. There needs to be a reason to accept it, not the other way around.

 

[Warren_Valion]

No. If something hasn't been discussed, we don't accept it. There needs to be a reason to accept it, not the other way around.

If something hasn't been discussed, then it hasn't been discussed.

There is no stance on the wiki until it is discussed and either accepted or denied.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We don't accept the novel yet. Currently, even Bleach's novel had more going for it than this one does. And that one got nixed as well.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The novel is literally just a retelling of the movie.

From reading translations, it doesn't do anything different.

 

[Sptflcrw]

If something hasn't been discussed, then it hasn't been discussed.

There is no stance on the wiki until it is discussed and either accepted or denied.

THEN WHY DOES THE BLOG USE IT AS EVIDENCE?!?!? Besides, that's not even how we operate here. If we haven't discussed something, then we don't accept it. That's the default.

 

[Warren_Valion]

If something hasn't been discussed, then it hasn't been discussed.

There is no stance on the wiki until it is discussed and either accepted or denied.

THEN WHY DOES THE BLOG USE IT AS EVIDENCE?!?!? Besides, that's not even how we operate here. If we haven't discussed something, then we don't accept it. That's the default.
That was speaking generally.

If something hasn't been discussed then there is no take on the wiki.

And no, you are wrong. The first instinct is not to doubt everything, what are you talking about?

Where are you getting this from?

 

[Sptflcrw]

When someone makes a CRT, it isn't automatically accepted. It's not accepted until multiple people accept it. Same thing with a calc. It's not accepted by default, it's only accepted after people, well, accept it.