Bleach Soul Manipulation Potency Questions & Concerns

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What the title says. And relax. This was made to moreso ask questions first. While I have a few concerns with the level of potency for Bleach's soul manipulation, those issues only hold up depending on the answers to my question.

Anyway, whats the potency of Bleach's Soul Manipulation again exactly? Last I recall, it stems from scaling Reiatsu Crush above a resistance to another soul manipulation ability, and using that as the basis for the potency scaling. But I want a confirmation first before doing anything else.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I don't recall the potency myself but there really should have just been a blog explaining Reiatsu Crush (It's applications, potency, and how it works in general) so whenever someone has a question regarding it, anyone can simply just link it for them.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't recall the potency myself but there really should have just been a blog explaining Reiatsu Crush (It's applications, potency, and how it works in general) so whenever someone has a question regarding it, anyone can simply just link it for them.

Agreed. But wasnt there one made by IMade or something?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I honestly don't remember there being one but if there is one, someone knowledgeable should know.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Currently, Bleach's Soul Potency is somewhere massively upscaling from the hundreds of souls that Yammy was able to suck out and absorb with his Gonzui ability.


But there are current plans in the works to MASSIVELY upgrade their level of spiritual potency.

Aaroniero, who was a mere Gillian, was comprised of 33,650 Hollows (Hollows are comprised of numerous souls, don't forget).

And there are is even a statement that Grimmjow is comprised of hundreds of millions of souls.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

wasn't their a statement in the bleach Novel that goes along the lines that every atom has a soul?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Currently, Bleach's Soul Potency is somewhere massively upscaling from the hundreds of souls that Yammy was able to suck out and absorb with his Gonzui ability.

Okay, and im guessing this comes from Tatsuki resisting Gonzui, then getting near insta soul crushed from Yammy, and then so on?

 

[Warren_Valion]

Okay, and im guessing this comes from Tatsuki resisting Gonzui, then getting near insta soul crushed from Yammy, and then so on?

Yeah, shit like that.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

wasn't their a statement in the bleach Novel that goes along the lines that every atom has a soul?

i found it.. It was discussed here. https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-soul-potency.73633/

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah, shit like that.

Okay, its as I suspected. I had a feeling it was this, but its been a while so I wasnt sure if this changed or not. Thank you for confirming. Now getting to the issues with this hax scaling, this was actually brought up before, but it was a long while ago and I have no idea in which thread this was in, so i'll be bringing it up again here.

The problem im having with using Gonzui as the basis for the current soul potency scaling in Bleach is that Gonzui and the other generic soul haxes in the verse are not 1 to 1 to each other. In other words, they don't correlate with each other to suggest that they scale from one another in the first place. Insread, we are using cross-scaling between different forms of soul manipulation to give a value for the hax's potency, a type of scaling that we aren't allowed to use for hax abilities as they don't make sense. The biggest offender of this problem in the verse is Reiatsu Crush for example.

Now as you said, the logic behind Reiatsu Crushes current potency is that Yammy was easily soul crushing Tatsuki's soul just being near her, the same Tatsuki who resisted Yammy's Gonzui, a technique that absorbed souls from hundreds of people across Karakura Town. But herein lies the problem. Reiatsu Crush isn't the same type of soul manipulation as Gonzui.

Reiatsu Crushing an opponent's soul is destroying their soul. Yammy's Gonzui on the other hand is an ability that absorbs the soul. These 2 particular soul haxes are 2 different types of soul manipulation that are applied differently and effect the soul differently. They don't corelate as they are not the same kind of soul manipulation as one another, so the potency behind their soul hax differs from each other. Absorbing a soul is not the same thing as destroying it. And in this case, Tatsuki did not resist having her soul destroyed by Yammy, she only resisted having it pulled out from her. Aka, she resisted her soul being absorbed, not destroyed.

Because of that, we have no real basis to scale Reiatsu Crush from Gonzui since both do not do the same things as each other. Reiatsu Crush cant absorb souls and Gonzui cannot destroy them. So what concrete reason lies here for us to scale Reiatsu Crush from Gonzui? From what I see, there is none. Instead, whats being done is incorrectly cross-scaling the 2 differently applied abilities from each other so that the potency of Reiatsu Crush is defined. And as said above, cross-scaling between different forms of hax isn't allowed since there's no basis behind the scaling.

Ofc, Reiatsu Crush isnt the only example, but you should see the point im trying to raise here. The potency of Bleach's soul hax is coming from arbitrary cross-scaling between differently applied abilities, and thats an issue that needs to be raised.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I could argue this, talking about how Reiatsu Crush isn't a specific type of hax, but are just the effects that emanate from the density of their soul and that the strength of their soul determines the strength of their abilities, but this all doesn't really matter since Gonzui scaling isn't going to matter at all soon.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well those other things for the verse's soul hax potency, even if planned, aren't accepted here yet. For now, Reiatsu Crush is the basis, so it would be benefical to resolve the issue here with it for now.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

You kinda just wrote a whole lot of nothing honestly. There was also a thread like this already most likely by you no less as usual... There is 1 resistance there isn’t something separate in the series that stops your soul from getting sucked out or just getting crushed.

When judging the potency of Soul Manipulation, and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the Soul Manipulation can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc.

There is 1 mechanic within the verse that applies for like 99% of every ability within it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You kinda just wrote a whole lot of nothing honestly. There was also a thread like this already most likely by you no less as usual... There is 1 resistance there isn’t something separate in the series that stops your soul from getting sucked out or just getting crushed.

Except there is? Resistance to having your soul destroyed kinda isnt the same as having it absorbed.

Like, at all.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Having a thread to specifically "resolve the issues" with Reiatsu Crush, just to have a thread changing the soul potency in Bleach that would "resolve that issue" anyway, right afterward, is pointless and is just adding more work.

There is no reason to have this thread.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I will check tomorrow.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Having a thread to specifically "resolve the issues" with Reiatsu Crush, just to have a thread changing the soul potency in Bleach that would "resolve that issue" anyway, right afterward, is pointless and is just adding more work.

There is no reason to have this thread.

Its not exactly pointless if the event that thread for what your proposing doesn't get accepted, and just leads back to the issues here with scaling the potency. So yeah, until that thread gets made and accepted, there is a reason to have this thread.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Based on what? Is there some sort of study?

It’s literally based on mechanics amongst various other factors as stated on the soul manipulation page. There is only 1 mechanic within the verse.

You’re just recycling your annual reiatsu thread lol.

 

[Damage3245]

This is also a Questions & Answers thread, not a CRT. Have the original questions been answered?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Based on what? Is there some sort of study?

One destroys the soul. One absorbs the soul. Both affect the soul differently. Thus, resisting one isnt the same as resisting the other. This isn't hard.

It’s literally based on mechanics amongst various other factors as stated on the soul manipulation page. There is only 1 mechanic within the verse.

Okay and how does that mechanic solve this cross-scaling issue?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This is also a Questions & Answers thread, not a CRT. Have the original questions been answered?

Yeah, Warren answered. Though this thread is still to also raise concerns with the logic behind the haxes scaling, which I said I would raise here. So i'd still like for this to be discussed and resolved.

Should I remake this in the CRT forum?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

One destroys the soul. One absorbs the soul. Both affect the soul differently. Thus, resisting one isnt the same as resisting the other. This isn't hard.

Both are resisted the same way. Having a sufficiently strong soul. How have you not understood this after dozens of threads for like 2 years dude?

Okay and how does that mechanic solve this cross-scaling issue?

There isn’t a cross scaling issue. You legit have no evidence whatsoever. Your argument is essentially “one sucks” and “one destroys”. You haven’t actually explained why they don’t scale to each other within the context of the series hen literally everything functions the same at a fundamental level for Shinigami.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Both are resisted the same way. Having a sufficiently strong soul. How have you not understood this after dozens of threads for like 2 years dude?

No because this explanation in these "dozens" of threads does not make sense to solve this issue. You guys take "having a strong soul" as just resistance, yes? So how does that solve the issue of 2 completely different applied soul haxes scaling from each other?

There isn’t a cross scaling issue. You legit have no evidence whatsoever.

Evidence like both abilities not operating in the same manner? Because thats kinda self-explanatory dude.

Your argument is essentially “one sucks” and “one destroys”. You haven’t actually explained why they don’t scale to each other within the context of the series hen literally everything functions the same at a fundamental level for Shinigami.

Seems you're forgetting what burden of proof is here dude. I dont have to explain why both wouldnt scale off each other when the reason for why they would scale to each other in the first place isn't given. Or rather, its not a sufficient explanation that can properly fulfill the burden of proof.

In addition, the abilities themselves effecting the soul in different ways, which is painfully obvious, kind of already tells us why they shouldnt be scaling. We wouldnt be here now if that wasn't the case.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Literally, how can clear and direct statements about the number of souls characters are comprised of not be accepted? That's ******* ludicrous.

Also, even if it isn't accepted. So what? Make the extra thread then, not now.

If it is accepted, which it will be, then you won't have to make the thread, since the "problem" is solved. If it isn't accepted, then you have a reason to make your CRT.

But doing it now is just adding more work for no good reason.


Have patience.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Because again it’s resisted the same way. Gonzui was resisted by having the bare minimum amount of spiritual awareness which is also reliant on ones spiritual capabilities. You need a decently powerful soul to even qualify.

Soul Crush is resisted the same way within the series which is by having a sufficiently strong soul that can withstand the opposing force.

People sure love abusing burden of proof.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

snip

You knew what I meant earlier dude. My point is, no matter how obvious or questionable a proposal is, it still needs to be put in a thread here, discussed and accepted to be applied on the site. None of which has happened yet. Im not saying it wont be accepted or anything, just that its a matter of when. Especially when the verse in question doesnt exactly have everything smoothly done for it.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Also, this argument you are making is nonsense. These abilities aren't separate - everything is spiritual in Bleach, everything comes from the same source - the soul.

The strength of Yammy's soul is what empowers his Gonzui to suck out the soul of another, and the strength of Yammy's soul is what denotes the strength of his Reiatsu Crush.

The same is said for resisting spiritual attacks as well.

As the reason that Tatsuki resisted Gonzui was that her soul was stronger than the average person because Ichigo's soul had empowered it, allowing her the ability to resist Gonzui, albeit barely.

It is the same reason as to how characters resist the effects of Reiatsu Crush (Also, RC isn't just Soul Destruction, it has a bunch of other effects as well), you need a stronger spiritual resistance to resist it.

If Tatsuki's soul is strong enough to resist the absorption that is affecting hundreds of others at one time, then you need a soul that has comparable or greater soul potency to affect her soul with Reiatsu Crush.

 

[Warren_Valion]

You knew what I meant earlier dude. My point is, no matter how obvious or questionable a proposal is, it still needs to be put in a thread here, discussed and accepted to be applied on the site. None of which has happened yet. Im not saying it wont be accepted or anything, just that its a matter of when. Especially when the verse in question doesnt exactly have everything smoothly done for it.

And you should know what I meant.

There is no reason why this topic has to be discussed immediately, and couldn't wait for a thread that will cover both it and something else in the near future.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because again it’s resisted the same way. Gonzui was resisted by having the bare minimum amount of spiritual awareness which is also reliant on ones spiritual capabilities. You need a decently powerful soul to even qualify.

This doesn't really solve the issue though, as having a strong soul is just Bleaches way of saying a soul needs resistance to an ability.

"Having the bare minimum amount of spiritual awareness" = soul resistance in Bleach. Tatsuki used said resistance to resist having her soul absorbed by Yammy. Thus, its Resistance to Soul Absorption.

Soul Crush is not soul absorption as said before. It effects the soul differently than how Gonzui effects it. One destroys the soul, the other absorbs the soul. Potency isnt being applied in the same manner because of that and it makes no sense to argue it does. Soul Crushing someone whos spiritual capabilities resisted Gonzui doesnt suddenly mean Reiatsu Crush's potency is above the potency of Gonzui.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, this argument you are making is nonsense. These abilities aren't separate - everything is spiritual in Bleach, everything comes from the same source - the soul.

And those said abilities do different things to the soul, effecting them differently. So yes, they are seperate. Coming from the same source doesnt matter as potency between these abilities aren't applied the same way.

The strength of Yammy's soul is what empowers his Gonzui to suck out the soul of another, and the strength of Yammy's soul is what denotes the strength of his Reiatsu Crush.

And again, this doesnt really matter, because potency from Gonzui isnt being applied the same way as the potency from Reiatsu Crush. Why? Because they arent the same ability.

Your assuming here that Yammy putting in his souls "strength" to absorb hundreds of souls means that he puts that very same potency into the manner of destroying the same amount of souls. That is what im saying doesn't make sense here.

If Tatsuki's soul is strong enough to resist the absorption that is affecting hundreds of others at one time, then you need a soul that has comparable or greater soul potency to affect her soul with Reiatsu Crush.

See above.

 

[Zoro21043]

if im not mistaken a crt is being planned for bleach's soul potency i say save these for then

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

if im not mistaken a crt is being planned for bleach's soul potency i say save these for then

Do you know when the CRT for it will be made if possible?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok i skimmed through some of this:

Both are resisted the same way. Having a sufficiently strong soul. How have you not understood this after dozens of threads for like 2 years dude?

Not really. Not all types of soul manip are resisted the same way. Which is why it's best to specify which type it resisted as it doesn't equalize.

The strength of Yammy's soul is what empowers his Gonzui to suck out the soul of another, and the strength of Yammy's soul is what denotes the strength of his Reiatsu Crush.

The same is said for resisting spiritual attacks as well.

As the reason that Tatsuki resisted Gonzui was that her soul was stronger than the average person because Ichigo's soul had empowered it, allowing her the ability to resist Gonzui, albeit barely.

That is, although not a standard, hard to argue against cus it works on almost the same logic as shared energy system.

 

[Zoro21043]

Do you know when the CRT for it will be made if possible?

probably not anytime soon the speed revision has been ongoing forever now lol
and there is a AP revision for the god tiers after that, that has been planned for almost 4 months now
i guess it will be after these two unless im missing something

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

In that case, we should try and resolve this since it seems it will stay as the basis for the hax potency for while.

 

[Zoro21043]

there is this statement from cfyow “The strong Arrancars in Hueco Mundo are the aggregations of several tens of thousands—or hundreds of millions—of konpaku. Whether it’s the result of them all mixing together, or the result of one strong individual overtaking the will of the others, the resulting Arrancars have their own beliefs. That’s exactly why, if we can understand their way of thinking…even just a tiny fraction of it, if there’s a part of them that agrees with us, negotiations are possible.”
if the current one has problems this could replace it?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well the amount of given souls isn’t so much the issue at play here (then again aren’t Gillian Hollows supposed to be reserved for captain class shinigami?)

But rather the issue is how we treat the hax potency of these abilities and how they scale over to each other.

Basically it’s a matter of scaling the abilities hax potency, not how much potency comes from the abilities. If that makes sense (hard to put in words a bit).

 

[Antoniofer]

We already had this issue about "hax potency" based in the number of victims before. Personally, I prefer the "quality over quantity" stand, and simply affecting several target is AoE, but a few do not think in this way.

BTW, in case someone want to pass soul haxing someone in Bleach as trillions of times "baseline" soul hax cuz every soul has spirit, that is a clear no.

 

[senseikeleon]

Just want to mention that it was stated that Menos (which can mean Gillian or and adjuchas or a Vasto Lorde) are reserved for captains and or the royal guard

Plus it was stated a captain class Soul reaper can easily defeat a Gillian

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We already had this issue about "hax potency" based in the number of victims before. Personally, I prefer the "quality over quantity" stand, and simply affecting several target is AoE, but a few do not think in this way.

BTW, in case someone want to pass soul haxing someone in Bleach as trillions of times "baseline" soul hax cuz every soul has spirit, that is a clear no.

Please leave the millions of times baseline stuff out of this.

This thread is to discuss the manner of how the haxes can scale their potency, not how much potency the abilities have.

I don’t want this thread derailed.