Bleach Revisions: Continuation

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

read his profile m8.

 

[Dbknowitall]

his profile might say that but it doesnt make it true since nowhere in the manga was it confirm nor does kenpachi ever do it later, its probably just Power breaking open space, Gran rey cero, higher power can distort space so kenpachi cutting space doesnt mean he has space ability it just means his power has reach the level of cutting space, he also cut galaxy room which was created by gremmy unlike SS and HM were space is more stable galaxy room is something different this is why you dont see him swinging space cutting swords after, well that is what i think, kenpachi with space cutting ability would render his strength completely useless because space can cut everything so no need for his power and fighting ability if he has it, would defeat the purpose of kenpachi character which is a beast with ridiculous power and fighting ability

 

[Dr.Fix]

I agree Weizol should be updated/upgraded. Also Zommari should be heavilly downgraded. Its pretty obvious in the manga he's no match for Byakuya and even the guy who created his profile confesses that though he put him at Moutain Level+ he really was only guessing and there is a lot of evidence that suggests otherwise.

 

[Amlad22]

I've already talked with Kuu before about Weizol, and he said that he isn't 6-C due to only using hax and never having any AP feats of his own.

 

[Dr.Fix]

The vast majority of 6-C bleach characters don't have such feats shown so that's not a reason.

 

[Amlad22]

My thoughts exactly. If the average sternritter is being scaled to Toshiro's feat. Weizol should be scaling too.

As for the Zommari topic, he does have 'At Most' on his Mountain rating to signify that he most likely isn't on that level. Maybe to help clarify he could be changed to, 'At Least Large Town Level, At Most Mountain level+' in ressurection. And then his base can stay at large town level.

 

[Dr.Fix]

The only character who scales over Toshiro's feat is Gerard in his giant form (and by extention, all of his other powers ups and other characters => than that (Ex: Zaraki)).

Zommari should scale to grantz, maybe with an "At least" rating to designate he could be higher (Small City). Byakuya so utterly curb stomped him the comparison can't be made.

 

[Amlad22]

Nope, all sternritter on cang du's level or higher scale. Since Cang Du could steal Toshiro bankai and you need to have a similar level of power to someone to steal their Bankai. This was stated by Yhwach when he fought Yama.

Zommari still survived Byakuya's Bankai, it nearly killed him, but he survived. So that's where the 'At Most Mountain level+' comes from.

 

[Amlad22]

Gerard scales to Kenpachi's multi continental feat since he could defeat Shikai Kenpachi in his giant form. That much is obvious.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Wrong on account of two mistakes:

1. Cang Du stole Toshiro's bankai BEFORE all his modifications that occured in the last arc. Judging by this alone Cang Du should only be Moutain Level+

2. The oly Sternritter definitively more powerful are the Elites

As for Zommari, I used to think he was higher too, but if you look at the entirety of their fight you see that initiall ATTk was an outlier. Everything else points to Byakuya being vastly above him.

 

[Dbknowitall]

zommari should be at 7-B ressurection, he survive byakuya attack but mostly due to Hierro also the fact that they arent exactly human, i mean most shinigami survive being cut in half or several holes in their body so is natural to survive an attack stronger than your power for the most part.

Stark is label as 6-C, personally i think baragan also deserves this rank 7A base, 6-C ressurection, no way he is weaker than zommari or resurrection grimmjow in base much less that massively weaker than stark, shunsui was also wondering who exactly was the strongest out of the 3 because their reitsu was pretty close, as for halibel fiasco of losing to toshiro well she was doing rather well in base against bankai toshiro everything change after she went full water mode and gave toshiro a power boost, her base should be higher than ulquiorra, while the SR did make the espadas quite weak Nel and Grimjow showed that a similar Rank 3 espada is not such an easy target, Nel was given the Possibly 6-C during Blood war arc and she is also a Rank 3.

baragan 7A ->6C

halibel 7B high-> 7A high

ulquiorra low 7B -> 7A -> 6C

as for the vizard captain i think they are fine where they are, they might have survive against stark without bankai but they did have their mask on which is just as good as a bankai boost besides the ability/hax, so in reality their power was just as good as a regular captain + bankai when they fought stark and knowing stark he was not taking them serious at all.

Kensei, rose etc are not very good captain they have low talent i mean 100+ years in hiding and they barely got any stronger at all, they are much weaker than byakuya, toshiro and the younger captains, 2 years for a captain is not a very long time, only those with amazing ability and young life can possibly become stronger in that time span like toshiro

 

[Amlad22]

Toshiro from the final arc in general is 6-C, Mayuri was never shown to make him stronger, he simply cured him from the Zombie power. I will double check the chapters though just to be safe. If he did say he made Toshiro stronger than Cang Du would only be 7-A due to logical scaling.

Don't forget Bazz-B, who could contend with Bankai Renji and Shikai Yama.

I agree Byakuya is way stronger than Zommari, but I still think his rating should be talked about more with the staff.

 

[Amlad22]

Ok I looked over the chapter where Mayuri reveals Toshiro and he says nothing about making Toshiro stronger. He simply says that they (Toshiro and Rangiku) should be good as new but will not have vastly shortened lifespans. Then Toshiro Thanks Mayuri and he leaves to fight Gerard. So Cang Du is still 6-C.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Getting imput from others is fine, but being staff doesn't make one an expert or any way more informed than other members. We should stick to the source material.

Mayuri does NOT SAY he makes Toshiro stronger; Toshiro is SHOWN to be stronger (See the island + calc). Prior to this, Toshiro was Moutain Level + at best (agian see calculations section). He doesn't display any Island, or even moutain level power during the first invasion when Cang Du stole the bankai. Therefore we can establish Toshiro got more powerful after all the events of the last arc (hollow reiatsu, Quincy reiatsu, whatever mayuri did which also took centruries off his life span.

I'm not going to touch BazzB beyond saying that his pl has been discussed for years and across multiple forums the fans have always disagreed on him on account of nothing solid on panel. I'd put him in the unknown section TBH.

 

[Dbknowitall]

Dr.fix, toshiro is the youngest captain in SS and can be compare to Ichigo, it means everytime he fights or gets beaten he can become stronger and stronger, think of it like experience i mean ichigo did the same exact thing, he gets beaten by ulquiorra then gets up and now can fight grimmjow in bankai, toshiro barely defeated Luppi but then went ahead and matched halibel to some extent, 2 years later its obvious our boy toshiro went on a massive training streak because of what happened with aizen and being to damn weak.

yes toshiro did get stronger during the blood war arc, he had his bankai stolen thus went back to his shikai/roots and develop that got beaten to a pulp by bazz-b thus got stronger again, fought cang du and beat him quickly before volstandig, more experience on top of more.

how many times has toshiro been near death during the series, its obvious his body would become stronger as survival instict the same way humans can become stronger in the face of danger/fear, this is a common trend in shounen anyway

 

[Amlad22]

When I refer to staff I am more so talking about the knowledgable members of Bleach like Kuu.

You forget that Toshiro had months of intense hardcore training between the FKT arc and the final arc. That's likely what gave him the boost and not Mayuri. Since Toshiro is a prodigy it's more likely that his training would make him stronger and also back to my point of Mayuri never saying anything.

 

[AppleLord]

Mayuri does NOT SAY he makes Toshiro stronger; Toshiro is SHOWN to be stronger (See the island + calc). Prior to this, Toshiro was Moutain Level + at best (agian see calculations section). He doesn't display any Island, or even moutain level power during the first invasion when Cang Du stole the bankai. Therefore we can establish Toshiro got more powerful after all the events of the last arc (hollow reiatsu, Quincy reiatsu, whatever mayuri did which also took centruries off his life span.

Negative. Toshio was said to have master his Bankai prior to the first invasion. In the Fullbring Arc he never used his Bankai. In the first invasion his bankai was stolen, and he couldn't use it. When he got his bankai back, he was weak but still manage to one shot Cang Du. (He survive, and block an attack from Jugram sword that destroyed Ichigo's bankai.) Only after going Bankai was Hitsugaya able to do the Island level feat.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Guess I'll clear up some things:

Amlad22: being an expert on the page means nothing, anyone can add themselves to it. At least I presume that's what you mean by expert. I personally am new here but I haven't seen Kuu say much to convince me he is knowledgeable (not to say he isn't, I just haven't seen it). I go by the manga, not other people's opinions, though I do appreciate those who can show me someting I missed (again, assuming they actually cite or at least explain where from the manag they get their info over simply telling me A>B without reason).

DB: The only character who gets stornger after getting nearly killed is Zaraki (Okay and Gerard but that's for different reasons).

Now as for Toshiro:

He used Ice Prison on Luppi, which deafeated arrancar #6 (Chap 234). He later used this same technique on Harribel, and it had no effect. It wasn't until he used his full power via Tenso Jurin that he defeated her (FKKT arc). I know what you may be thinking and no, Tenso Jurin was NOT a new technique. He has had it since at least SS arc, as seen when he battled Gin. He just didn't use it again until harribel because its too powerful and he doesn't want to cause casualties.

Regarding your points Applelord, Toshiro spent the past year and a half (Nothing for a soul reaper) training his bankai. See reference here . Even after that training, his bankai is still the weakest of all the captains comparing increases from shikai. See reference here .

The bankai multiplier isn't used on this forum in favour of bigger increases, but if it were Toshiro's bankai increase would be maybe a 5x post stimeskip as opposed to say a 4.5x pre-timeskip.

Also keep in mind Toshiro would have joined the Gotei roughly the same time as best friend Momo, who was part of Renji's class 50-60 years ago (I don't remember the exact chapter off the top of my head but look up SS arc if you like to check). He also mentions his bankai to Isshin twenty years earlier in EBTR, so he has definetly had it for a long time which puts the meaning of 18 months in perspective (Its pretty much irrelevant).

Its also woroth noting that while soul reapers have centuries to train and barely get any stronger, there are those who get monumentally stornger via other pursuits. Ex: Renji had 50-60 years and only acquired the power of a Vice captain (fodder). Then over night he ate Hikifune's food and became vastly more powerful then his seniors: the captains. Also Kisuke developed the method of attaining bankai in three days as opposed to decades, Mayuri created technology that increases reiatsu for him, and Aizen cites soul reapers have been studying ways to increase their power via injecting another reiatsu into themselves for some time (Which lead to hollowfication research conducted by both he and Kisuke).

Now go back and remember Toshiro was infused with hollow reiatsu (Via Kisuke), Quincy Reiatsu (Via Gigi) and Mayuri's drugs before being placed in his technology. So two types of forign reiatsu were injected into Hitsugaya which we know is a method of increasing one's power exponentially. Then he was made a science experiemnt of Maryui, who's science raises power without training over teidious time. Finally remember that he has no feats between harribel and experiemnts which even put him at Moutain level, let alone Island level+. Only AFTER the experiments does he get a monumental feat/calculation.

Bottom line, Toshiro was Mountain level+ when he goes all out (Tenso Jurin), but much weaker wihtout it. He doesn't use the ability again int he manga but he does show an Island+ feat after science modifications. After tiemskip and BEFORE science however he displays nothing close to that level. In fact his shikai was explicitedly shown as being pretty weak.

Hope that clears soem stuff up. Merry Christmas

EDIT: If anyone needs some more ciations I'd be happy to provide them when I have time. If you want them sooner all of this information is available in the volumes and online.

 

[AppleLord]

Even after that training, his bankai is still the weakest of all the captains comparing increases from shikai.. See reference here .

The bankai multiplier isn't used on this forum in favour of bigger increases, but if it were Toshiro's bankai increase would be maybe a 5x post stimeskip as opposed to say a 4.5x pre-timeskip.

Also keep in mind Toshiro would have joined the Gotei roughly the same time as best friend Momo, who was part of Renji's class 50-60 years ago (I don't remember the exact chapter off the top of my head but look up SS arc if you like to check). He also mentions his bankai to Isshin twenty years earlier in EBTR, so he has definetly had it for a long time which puts the meaning of 18 months in perspective (Its pretty much irrelevant).

Its also woroth noting that while soul reapers have centuries to train and barely get any stronger, there are those who get monumentally stornger via other pursuits. Ex: Renji had 50-60 years and only acquired the power of a Vice captain (fodder).

Now go back and remember Toshiro was infused with hollow reiatsu (Via Kisuke), Quincy Reiatsu (Via Gigi) and Mayuri's drugs before being placed in his technology.

Do you have any evidence or reference to that which I marked in black?

So what you're saying is that Toshio feat makes no sense and must be downgraded? Because there is no power boot given by Mayuri in all that's fan fiction and theory.

To end my reply, Toshiro was said to be aprodigy, and capable of replacing Captain Yamamoto in a few years. His strenght comes from it.

He never had prior feats, because he never used his Bankai at full power until he fought Gerard. And Reiatsu control can be argue on his fight with Mayuri which he solo more than once. When he used it againts Cang it was also a solo, and he was weaken. The effects of the hollow pill were temporarely.

If you want to throw around missleading events, provide evidence for your claims.

 

[Dbknowitall]

not talking about getting a boost like kenpachi or gerard man, talking about getting stronger after every fight and defeat liek every shounen character does, its called getting stronger with experience and challenges. not a hax power up like gerard but geniune power boost after a fight or a lost/close to death moment, just how a human gets stronger if he trains or fights daily toshiro got a boost after fighting cang du, defeated by bazz-b and fighting cang du again, etc during the war.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Even after that training, his bankai is still the weakest of all the captains comparing increases from shikai.. See reference here .

The bankai multiplier isn't used on this forum in favour of bigger increases, but if it were Toshiro's bankai increase would be maybe a 5x post stimeskip as opposed to say a 4.5x pre-timeskip.


Also keep in mind Toshiro would have joined the Gotei roughly the same time as best friend Momo, who was part of Renji's class 50-60 years ago (I don't remember the exact chapter off the top of my head but look up SS arc if you like to check). He also mentions his bankai to Isshin twenty years earlier in EBTR, so he has definetly had it for a long time which puts the meaning of 18 months in perspective (Its pretty much irrelevant).

Its also woroth noting that while soul reapers have centuries to train and barely get any stronger, there are those who get monumentally stornger via other pursuits. Ex: Renji had 50-60 years and only acquired the power of a Vice captain (fodder).

Now go back and remember Toshiro was infused with hollow reiatsu (Via Kisuke), Quincy Reiatsu (Via Gigi) and Mayuri's drugs before being placed in his technology.

Do you have any evidence or reference to that which I marked in black?
So what you're saying is that Toshio feat makes no sense and must be downgraded? Because there is no power boot given by Mayuri in all that's fan fiction and theory.

To end my reply, Toshiro was said to be aprodigy, and capable of replacing Captain Yamamoto in a few years. His strenght comes from it.

He never had prior feats, because he never used his Bankai at full power until he fought Gerard. And Reiatsu control can be argue on his fight with Mayuri which he solo more than once. When he used it againts Cang it was also a solo, and he was weaken. The effects of the hollow pill were temporarely.

If you want to throw around missleading events, provide evidence for your claims.

Fixed the link. Please refrain from insulting me in the future.

Also at what point does any character say Toshiro would surpass Yamamoto? Shunsui yes, Yamamoto? Not that I'm aware of. Cite please.

 

[Dr.Fix]

not talking about getting a boost like kenpachi or gerard man, talking about getting stronger after every fight and defeat liek every shounen character does, its called getting stronger with experience and challenges. not a hax power up like gerard but geniune power boost after a fight or a lost/close to death moment, just how a human gets stronger if he trains or fights daily toshiro got a boost after fighting cang du, defeated by bazz-b and fighting cang du again, etc during the war.

Please only reference the series we're talking about. What happens in other shounens <What happens in Bleach.

 

[AppleLord]

Fixed the link. Please refrain from insulting me in the future.

Asking for evidence for claims is not an insult.

 

[ALRF]

Don't quote walls of text pl0x, makes the thread more glaggy

 

[Dr.Fix]

We might also have to consider Seretei's pervious calculations were replaced by new ones. Since this forum scales the royal realm to the seretei then Toshiro's Island+ feat post Mayuri could just be showign a disparity with the calculations (Ie the former calculation of seretei was more correct which shrinks RR and then Toshiro's feat gets downscaled to fit known parameters).

 

[M11UTD]

will there be new calc for Las Noches' size and Lanza ?

 

[Amlad22]

I don't know if the accepted size fkr los noches has changed or not? If it has I think it's worth seeing if Ulquiorra's Lanza yield will be above island level or not.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Pretty sure there are a few Las Noches calculations out there already. The question is, like character calculations, which one to use.

 

[Golden_Void]

I shall save this verse too :^)

Also, why does Ichigo have a FB profile when his main profile already has that tab?

 

[AppleLord]

Never mind, just add to Ichigo's profile this powers:


Matter Manipulation (Fullbringers can convert objects and matter into energy by pulling their soul, prime example is the use of Bringer Light, Ichigo can draw on the souls of concrete and solid air in order to propel himself higher and at faster speeds.) Soul Manipulation (Fullbringers can extract souls from objects.)

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Btw, a friend of mine calculated the power needed for each espada to destroy Las Noches and Ulquiorra's Cero Oscuras, he go slightly below 7-A results and High 7-A to 6-C.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Never mind, just add to Ichigo's profile this powers:

Matter Manipulation (Fullbringers can convert objects and matter into energy by pulling their soul, prime example is the use of Bringer Light, Ichigo can draw on the souls of concrete and solid air in order to propel himself higher and at faster speeds.) Soul Manipulation (Fullbringers can extract souls from objects.)

Matter manipulation is too vague, YHWH has matter manipulation on a entirely different level. Elasticity manipulation seems more appropiate for bringher light. I'd also add (Very)Limited matter manipulation for his ability to manipulate reshi for blut

 

[AppleLord]

Matter manipulation is too vague, YHWH has matter manipulation on a entirely different level. Elasticity manipulation seems more appropiate for bringher light. I'd also add (Very)Limited matter manipulation for his ability to manipulate reshi for blut

Every race (except Fullbringers) in Bleach can use reishi even Shinigami, and Reishi is Spirit Matter which exist in all the worlds. In the Human World reishi is only found close to nature and is limited. Fullbringers control the "soul" found in all "objects" and "matter" in the human world. All "souls" are made of "reishi."

Is an inverse Matter Manipulation capable of been equalized to Matter Manipulation.

Pardon my question, but are you new to Bleach? Excuse my curiosity, but every single reply from you on this thread goes against the lore already establish.

 

[Peter1129]

He was confident enough to put his name on the knowledgeable members list for Bleach so probably not.

 

[AppleLord]

He was confident enough to put his name on the knowledgeable members list for Bleach so probably not.

I see.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Even after that training, his bankai is still the weakest of all the captains comparing increases from shikai.. See reference here .


The bankai multiplier isn't used on this forum in favour of bigger increases, but if it were Toshiro's bankai increase would be maybe a 5x post stimeskip as opposed to say a 4.5x pre-timeskip.


Also keep in mind Toshiro would have joined the Gotei roughly the same time as best friend Momo, who was part of Renji's class 50-60 years ago (I don't remember the exact chapter off the top of my head but look up SS arc if you like to check). He also mentions his bankai to Isshin twenty years earlier in EBTR, so he has definetly had it for a long time which puts the meaning of 18 months in perspective (Its pretty much irrelevant).

Its also woroth noting that while soul reapers have centuries to train and barely get any stronger, there are those who get monumentally stornger via other pursuits. Ex: Renji had 50-60 years and only acquired the power of a Vice captain (fodder).

Now go back and remember Toshiro was infused with hollow reiatsu (Via Kisuke), Quincy Reiatsu (Via Gigi) and Mayuri's drugs before being placed in his technology.

Do you have any evidence or reference to that which I marked in black?
So what you're saying is that Toshio feat makes no sense and must be downgraded? Because there is no power boot given by Mayuri in all that's fan fiction and theory.

To end my reply, Toshiro was said to be aprodigy, and capable of replacing Captain Yamamoto in a few years. His strenght comes from it.

He never had prior feats, because he never used his Bankai at full power until he fought Gerard. And Reiatsu control can be argue on his fight with Mayuri which he solo more than once. When he used it againts Cang it was also a solo, and he was weaken. The effects of the hollow pill were temporarely.

If you want to throw around missleading events, provide evidence for your claims.

Fixed the link. Please refrain from insulting me in the future.
Also at what point does any character say Toshiro would surpass Yamamoto? Shunsui yes, Yamamoto? Not that I'm aware of. Cite please.

I'll address your inquiry but only after you respond to our earlier conversation please.

 

[Amlad22]

Can anyone put thier name on the knowledgable members list nowadays? I feel like that's kinda weird. You should pass a test or something.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Fix pls dont quote walls of text.

 

[AppleLord]

Excuse my arrival, but what puts characters like Ginjo and Tsukishima at mountain level?

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Yeah, I was all for scaling Ginjo and Tsukishima to High 7-C. But then KuuIchigo said that Tsukishima should get scaled to 7-A for hurting Byakuya. And Ginjo is scaled from him and also for cancelling out a Getsuga Tenshhou from Ichigo (with his Shinigami powers returned).