Bleach: Light Novel Statements and Feats

[Damage3245]

I respond more in a bit but 4x slower than average lightning isn’t comparable

Which is consistent with Ginjo saying "That’s pretty slow for lightning." and the narrator saying "Though it was much slower than an actual lightning bolt".

 

[Reio35]

Regarding Ginjo choosing to deflect Candice’s lightning instead of dodging it, if you could deflect a bullet with a sword why bother dodging it? It makes no sense that Ginjo somehow had the time to grab his pendant, summon his sword, and then deflect it when simply moving out of the way would’ve been just as fast.

I love the novels but man, sometimes Narita’s way of telling things is mind blowing. Like how he states Ginjo’s getsuga tenshou is as strong as Ichigo’s strongest one, but also says that Ichigo could easily beat Hikone while Ginjo might put up a decent fight

I’m pretty sure that at least 7 of his 10 points are/could be debunked

Also this was base ginjo who is nowhere near full power so i don't even think this matters

 

[Damage3245]

Also this was base ginjo who is nowhere near full power so i don't even think this matters

I didn't say it was otherwise.

 

[Cyberblader90]

we should re calc the following using damage's calc for the sk palace distance

Mimihagi flies to Soul King Palace

Yhwach's death beam

Yhwach's Auswahlen

Liltotto dodging Auswahlen

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

FYI all the ritters are weaker on the novels

 

[Cyberblader90]

New Reiokyu Distance

vsbattles.fandom.com

Arc already did them it seems

• Mimihagi flies to Reiokyu: 1.624E7 m/s or 0.054c (Sub-Relativistic+)
• Yhwach's Death Beam: 1.624E7 m/s or 0.054c (Sub-Relativistic+)
• Auswahlen: 1.624E7 m/s or 0.054c (Sub-Relativistic+)
• Liltotto Dodging: 1.215E7 m/s or 0.041c (Sub-Relativistic)
• Lille Falling: 4.872E6 m/s or 0.016c (Sub-Relativistic)

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Cyber we currently use those iirc

 

[Damage3245]

Cyber we currently use those iirc

We do, or something pretty close to that.

I don't think most people have seen my proposals which are at the end of last page so I'll repost them here:


My first proposal is basically concerning Liltotto Lamperd and how her current rating affects other characters.

Yhwach's Auswahlen is, as far as I'm aware, accepted as Sub-Relativistic+ and Liltotto's Vollstandig Form is accepted as being Sub-Relativistic+ for dodging out of the way of it.

Base Hikone scales to Liltotto from this.

And Candice Catnipp, Giselle Gewelle, Meninas McAllon and Shinji Hirako are all scaling to Sub-Relativistic+ via scaling to Hikone.

There are two issues with this to me;

1) We don't know the distance between Liltotto when she started moving and the Auswahlen; you don't need to be as fast as something in order to dodge it. The Sub-Relativistic+ rating should be removed from her Vollstandig key and she should just be rated as "higher" than her base key.

2) This was a feat performed in her Vollstandig form which she lost access to; Hikone shouldn't be scaling to that value through scaling to her base form in the novel.

This would bring Candice's ratings back more in line with her portrayal in the novel where the statements for the speed of her attacks comes from.

 

[SilentBob34]

Which is consistent with Ginjo saying "That’s pretty slow for lightning." and the narrator saying "Though it was much slower than an actual lightning bolt".

Hey, I’m not gonna worry about arguing about it anymore. I still don’t agree but I feel like it’s just gonna be a back and forth at this point. Do you wanna focus on other points?

 

[SilentBob34]

We do, or something pretty close to that.

I don't think most people have seen my proposals which are at the end of last page so I'll repost them here:


My first proposal is basically concerning Liltotto Lamperd and how her current rating affects other characters.

Yhwach's Auswahlen is, as far as I'm aware, accepted as Sub-Relativistic+ and Liltotto's Vollstandig Form is accepted as being Sub-Relativistic+ for dodging out of the way of it.

Base Hikone scales to Liltotto from this.

And Candice Catnipp, Giselle Gewelle, Meninas McAllon and Shinji Hirako are all scaling to Sub-Relativistic+ via scaling to Hikone.

There are two issues with this to me;

1) We don't know the distance between Liltotto when she started moving and the Auswahlen; you don't need to be as fast as something in order to dodge it. The Sub-Relativistic+ rating should be removed from her Vollstandig key and she should just be rated as "higher" than her base key.

2) This was a feat performed in her Vollstandig form which she lost access to; Hikone shouldn't be scaling to that value through scaling to her base form in the novel.

This would bring Candice's ratings back more in line with her portrayal in the novel where the statements for the speed of her attacks comes from.

I can agree with liltotto thing, but how come the calc of the 3 Quincy girls dodging Candice’s cloud to ground lightning hasn’t been discussed?

 

[Damage3245]

I can agree with liltotto thing, but how come the calc of the 3 Quincy girls dodging Candice’s cloud to ground lightning hasn’t been discussed?

I'm almost certain that exact topic has been discussed many, many months ago.

Can't remember what was said exactly, but we don't have an exact location for them before Candice starts firing her lightning. We also don't see the full extent of the lightning; meaning the lightning could have travelled a lot further than them anyway.

 

[SilentBob34]

I'm almost certain that exact topic has been discussed many, many months ago.

Can't remember what was said exactly, but we don't have an exact location for them before Candice starts firing her lightning. We also don't see the full extent of the lightning; meaning the lightning could have travelled a lot further than them anyway.

Shouldn’t it be looked into again? I feel like that’s a pretty valuable feat and honestly so far, I don’t think there’s a single speed feat for TYBW arc characters (other than Ichigo’s feat and the SS to SK palace distance feats). Also the fear of the SK kings monsters attacking SS. that’s a pretty valuable feat too

 

[SilentBob34]

Also random thing to say @Damage, I appreciate your trying to fix the speed of the verse but I don’t think even Kubo himself could do it lol. We have the novel stating a perfectly scientific and reliable explanation on why Hikone’s speed should be near light speed, and Ichigo could easily beat him yet Ichigo’s best feat in the entire manga is a Mach 4000 feat. (Though it was extremely casual).

then with Mask’s potentially light speed beam as it’s still being discussed among other feats that could be Realistic or higher, it seems like Kubo has an idea that his characters should be around light speed but Narita has his own idea that the characters should be around lightning speed. Everything is all over the place and I praise you for trying to sort that out. And @Arc and @Cyber too for trying to help

 

[Damage3245]

We have the novel stating a perfectly scientific and reliable explanation on why Hikone’s speed should be near light speed, and Ichigo could easily beat him yet Ichigo’s best feat in the entire manga is a Mach 4000 feat. (Though it was extremely casual).

As you say, this was a casual Ichigo back from when Ichigo was holding back since he didn't use his full power until he was fighting the God Tier of the verse himself.

So it could easily be:

At least Relativistic+, possibly Speed of Light ~ Full Power Ichigo >>> Mach 4000 ~ Casual Ichigo >> Lightning Speed ~ Sternritter Girls.

 

[SilentBob34]

As you say, this was a casual Ichigo back from when Ichigo was holding back since he didn't use his full power until he was fighting the God Tier of the verse himself.

So it could easily be:

At least Relativistic+, possibly Speed of Light ~ Full Power Ichigo >>> Mach 4000 ~ Casual Ichigo >> Lightning Speed ~ Sternritter Girls.

That was my kinda line of thinking too even though full power Ichigo should be above that given it’s stated he could easily beat Hikone( we know none of the characters there have seen a stronger form of him)

I have more to say but I’ll post it when I wake up

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

1) We don't know the distance between Liltotto when she started moving and the Auswahlen; you don't need to be as fast as something in order to dodge it. The Sub-Relativistic+ rating should be removed from her Vollstandig key and she should just be rated as "higher" than her base key.

2) This was a feat performed in her Vollstandig form which she lost access to; Hikone shouldn't be scaling to that value through scaling to her base form in the novel.

The only thing about the “we don’t know how far up it was” is that we see it neg Robert and considering the beams were more or less launched at the same time the one Lil evaded wouldn’t be far behind. I believe on the thread it was discussed you settled for it being baseline sub-rel+ as a compromise between not knowing exactly where the light was but it being close enough where you’d have to be near that speed to dodge. However I do agree that it should just be scaling to Vollstandig Lil and not base Lil.

 

[Damage3245]

The only thing about the “we don’t know how far up it was” is that we see it neg Robert and considering the beams were more or less launched at the same time the one Lil evaded wouldn’t be far behind. I believe on the thread it was discussed you settled for it being baseline sub-rel+ as a compromise between not knowing exactly where the light was but it being close enough where you’d have to be near that speed to dodge.

If it was the exact same time then it would have hit her the same moment that Robert was hit. Since there is some unknown distance between them, then guesstimating a timeframe doesn't really work, and saying that she has to be equal to it doesn't seem right to me. I'm aware that was what we picked months ago just as there wasn't seemingly any alternative, but now I'm sure that we shouldn't be using it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

.

Considering it is no contradiction for her Vollstandig form to scale I don’t see it as problematic. Also, it was a compromise of USklav treating the shot of it as a perspective shot and a dose of healthy skepticism that maybe it isn’t a perspective shot.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I'll bring it up here. Mask's beam was rejected as being light speed, but I want to bring up a complaint I've seen on the feat not mentioned in the prior thread.

Here is the full feat:



The following is the argument:

They don't show any shots of the target in between him firing and Renji blocking
No panels of Renji moving in between

The thing is he could have gotten in front of it before dude fired
Since there's nothing showing him moving afterward
And he's already in position when we see the shot being blocked

couldnt mask's surprise be an indication renji wasnt initially present when he first fired?

I thought about that, but it would make just as much sense if Renji arrived faster than he could perceive
Like he’s just reacting after he’s already there

Tldr: Aim Blocking is viable, As there are no shots in between the firing shot and the hitting target shot, and the firing shot doesn't show position of target

 

[Damage3245]

I thought about that, but it would make just as much sense if Renji arrived faster than he could perceive

That's been my thought on the feat for a while now.

Renji was pretty clearly superior to Mask in just about every way once they started fighting; blocking Mask's attacks without effort, savagely injuring him with simple attacks and attacking him a couple of times faster than he could react.

I could believe that the feat is simply a case of Renji being FTE to Mask.

But since the feat isn't currently majorly relevant, I don't think it is that important to bring up here.

 

[KazuiK]

Sorry to defocus the topic but what would FTE be?

 

[Damage3245]

Sorry to defocus the topic but what would FTE be?

"Faster than Eyesight." As in Renji just arrived on the scene faster than Mask could percieve / react to.

 

[KazuiK]

I understand, thank you

 

[Damage3245]

I'll start drafting together some proposals for what I think the changed ratings should be based on my proposals earlier. Will post an update here tomorrow probably.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Awesome, lookin forward to it!

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Damage3245]

Sorry, been busy. I'll make some time this weekend to sort through it.

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[SilentBob34]

Is there any other feats anyone can think of? Actually what even will the proposals be? Cause if Damage’s plan is to downgrade everyone not named a god tier to baseline MHS+ or lower, than I have a hard time believing that given scaling and actual calcs of slower characters being at or around that speed from earlier arcs

 

[Cyberblader90]

what was wrong with this

Liltotto Dodging: 1.215E7 m/s or 0.041c (Sub-Relativistic)

 

[SilentBob34]

Saying it’s impressive for the stronger novel characters to react to lightning when a weaker FKT bankai Ichigo was able to react to a Mach 1000 attack just isn’t a solid argument when several of the novel quotes could mean different things or contradict the manga.
And before someone says reiatsu level doesn’t always mean power and speed should correlate to each other, they really do. Kenpachi and Byakuya vs Yammy is one of the best examples. Kenpachi is horrible at speed techniques while Byakuya is one of the best yet Kenpachi has no problem keeping pace with Byakuya in that fight

 

[SilentBob34]

what was wrong with this

I think Damage brought up the problems why that can’t be used which I can agree with on that honestly lol. If it’s about Liltotto dodging Auswalhen

but there’s still the feat of Ikkaku and etc. reacting to the soul king monsters which is a MHS+ feat even at a lowball, so anything lower than MHS+ is out of the question

which contradicts what I said about characters being MHS+ so I’m sorry about what I said @Damage

 

[Damage3245]

I went over the profiles at the weekend but didn't have time to post. Will post an update here today. And I don't believe I need to revise everyone that isn't a God Tier.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I think Damage brought up the problems why that can’t be used which I can agree with on that honestly lol. If it’s about Liltotto dodging Auswalhen

but there’s still the feat of Ikkaku and etc. reacting to the soul king monsters which is a MHS+ feat even at a lowball, so anything lower than MHS+ is out of the question

which contradicts what I said about characters being MHS+ so I’m sorry about what I said @Damage

Lilliloto dodged that when she was stronger + when she was in volstanding

Remember that all of them are weaker on the novels

 

[Damage3245]

This is a Work In Progress but this is a basic proposal for the four main Sternritter girls and First Fight Hikone: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Damage3245/SandboxBleach2

Just want to check if these are fine before I continue on with adding in other characters.

I'm also going to start gathering scans of the actual fights between characters in the novel and not just the statements directly relating to speed; so we can see better who fights who.

 

[Cyberblader90]

an issue, isn't the arrows being relative in speed just attack speed?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I wanna say they fight characters who can react to their arrows anyhow.

 

[Cyberblader90]

That works

 

[Tyri456]

I’m gonna say a thing, shouldn’t the normal lightings in the tybwa be MHS+ because they came from clouds therefore natural?
The Candice in the novel is far weaker than the candice in the tybwa. So there isn’t really a contradiction.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Her cloud to ground lightning is MHS+