Bleach: Light Novel Statements and Feats

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

You don't have to care but doesn't mean it's wrong. There is a precedent.

I can gather a bunch of feats below tier 7 and say this is consistent as opposed to these probably 3 tier 6 feats throughout a 500 chapter manga.

This is essentially what you're doing here.

 

[Damage3245]

I can gather a bunch of feats below tier 7 and say this is consistent as opposed to these probably 3 tier 6 feats throughout a 500 chapter manga.

This is not the AOE Fallacy.

 

[Reio35]

Ginjo barely reacting to Candice lighting arrow is literal a casual base ginjo. Ginjo hasn't even used shikia hollowfication or bankai.

Grimmjow moving a lighting speed is just travel speed and that's his base form.

Shinji barely reacting to lighting is also his base from no hollowfication.

It's was clearly established that hisagis spiritually pressure senses aren't that good so how should they scale to his physical speed

I think a lot of these scales are contradicted by the main canon considering a depressed fkt bankai ichigo reacting to a mach 1000 attack from gin. Cloaked fullbring ichigo was stated to be relative to his fkt bankai form and his compete fullbring was stated to be several times faster that. And his FB shikai and bankai obviously much stronger than that. Unless this talking about the return stroke speed of lightning which 1/3 the speed of light don't see how this scale makes sense.

 

[Zoro21043]

4
All this means is base Grimmjow has ~lightning speed travel speeds.

what travel speed are we using for true shikai ichigo for the soul palace distance? If it is lower than this we could use it

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

what travel speed are we using for true shikai ichigo for the soul palace distance? If it is lower than this we could use it

Free fall for a week.

 

[SilentBob34]

Free fall for a week.

Naw that’s for the statement it’d take a week with shunpo. If it’s Ichigo’s speed that he traveled at it’s like supersonic or something

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

IMO we prolly should use like Mach 1000 for TS Ichigo for the 9.25 hours via TS Ichigo = Mugetsu > Dangai >= God Aizen > Transcendent Aizen = transcends all Shinigami > 3rd Fusion > 2nd Fusion > 1st Fusion/base = blitzed Masked Ichigo > Bankai Ichigo = reacted to Mach 1000 despite being mentally nerfed (Gin stated he had succumb to losing), with the added justification that a much weaker Ichigo can sprint on a treadmill for 5 days, and Dangai Ichigo can fight for 3 months, but that distance is topic banned until the anime returns so I digress.

 

[Reio35]

Lol free fall that's not even a lowball that's outright BS. We know hes using shunpo to increase his speed and we see sonic booms no way this can be free fall.

We know plp like ichibei who is slower than ichigo can move 1000ri(2500 miles) casually. Ichigo blitzed aizen across a city before he could react we know that aizen should at least be wayy above mach 1000 at this point. Yet couldn't react to Ichigos travel speed

 

[SilentBob34]

I don’t wanna get on that topic but I do have a question. Why exactly was it changed from 147 m/s we used before to 55-80 m/s? Both are free fall speeds

actually ignore that it’s honestly not important. We should get back on topic

 

[SilentBob34]

So as far as I know, the Gin thing has been debunked, as well as I think Candice turning into lightning one time in the manga and novels to dodge Kenpachi and never does it again against faster people like Ichigo.

also the Tokinada being fast enough to deflect a lightning attack being a note able feat doesn’t hold up too well. Iirc people tried to use that in the past to upgrade some characters but it was dismissed. And I think Damage was apart of the dismissed side could be wrong though. If you can’t use a feat to potentially upgrade someone I don’t think it’s fair to use the exact same feat to downgrade people

 

[USklaverei]

There's a huge flaw in that, Shinso is not Mach 500, it hasn't been said, this is Gin's Shikai, what moves at Mach 500 is Kamishini no Yari, which is your Bankai.
Tokinada only used the Shikai.

 

[AppleLord]

There's a huge flaw in that, Shinso is not Mach 500, it hasn't been said, this is Gin's Shikai, what moves at Mach 500 is Kamishini no Yari, which is your Bankai.
Tokinada only used the Shikai.

Now expect Shikai is Mach 100 because is the reverse of the x5 multiplier for his bankai’s speed.

 

[SilentBob34]

So the Candice thing is about her arrows being slower than lightning and and her electrocution attack right?

 

[Reio35]

So the Candice thing is about her arrows being slower than lightning and and her electrocution attack right?

Her arrows are near lighting speed. Her electrocution attack is lighting speed or faster considering is surpasses natural lighting

 

[SilentBob34]

Her arrows are near lighting speed. Her electrocution attack is lighting speed or faster considering is surpasses natural lighting

Tbh, I think the whole comment about her arrows being near lightning speed is kinda sus. In the manga one of her arrows contains 5 gigajoules. A gigajoule of lightning is 1 billion joules and in the lightning feats page it states that if an electricity attack displays power comparable to natural lightning, then it should move at a comparable speed.

it’s required to at least produce 1.6 billion joules to qualify and candice’s arrows contain more than 3 times that. Which ironically enough I’m pretty sure that’s near the high end for lightning speed. This site accepts natural lightning to be Mach 1294

 

[SilentBob34]

There's a huge flaw in that, Shinso is not Mach 500, it hasn't been said, this is Gin's Shikai, what moves at Mach 500 is Kamishini no Yari, which is your Bankai.
Tokinada only used the Shikai.

to add even more to the craziness of trying to use that. Ichigo was able to block Gin’s shinso when he first met him in the SS arc. He’s literally trying to say that people like Shunsui and Shinji, who are faster and stronger than that version of Ichigo are somehow slower than him when Ichigo reacted to it just fine. Honestly it seems more like he was just adding those things in to make the battle more intense

I’ve never seen a point so debunked

 

[SilentBob34]

Regarding Ginjo choosing to deflect Candice’s lightning instead of dodging it, if you could deflect a bullet with a sword why bother dodging it? It makes no sense that Ginjo somehow had the time to grab his pendant, summon his sword, and then deflect it when simply moving out of the way would’ve been just as fast.

I love the novels but man, sometimes Narita’s way of telling things is mind blowing. Like how he states Ginjo’s getsuga tenshou is as strong as Ichigo’s strongest one, but also says that Ichigo could easily beat Hikone while Ginjo might put up a decent fight

I’m pretty sure that at least 7 of his 10 points are/could be debunked

 

[Damage3245]

Regarding Ginjo choosing to deflect Candice’s lightning instead of dodging it, if you could deflect a bullet with a sword why bother dodging it? It makes no sense that Ginjo somehow had the time to grab his pendant, summon his sword, and then deflect it when simply moving out of the way would’ve been just as fast.

The issue is not that Ginjo is incapable of dodging the lightning arrows; it's that he is incapable of dodging it by much.

I pointed out that while Ginjo could evade the lightning by a narrow margin, that wouldn't be enough for him to escape the damage from it passing by him so he needed to deflect the arrows instead of narrowly dodging them.

Tbh, I think the whole comment about her arrows being near lightning speed is kinda sus. In the manga one of her arrows contains 5 gigajoules. A gigajoule of lightning is 1 billion joules and in the lightning feats page it states that if an electricity attack displays power comparable to natural lightning, then it should move at a comparable speed.

That's why we are using "lightning speed" for the arrows, but a low end of lightning speed.

So as far as I know, the Gin thing has been debunked, as well as I think Candice turning into lightning one time in the manga and novels to dodge Kenpachi and never does it again against faster people like Ichigo.

How often do characters use special abilities in one moment and then never display them again anywhere else?



Anyway; my first proposal is basically concerning Liltotto Lamperd and how her current rating affects other characters.

Yhwach's Auswahlen is, as far as I'm aware, accepted as Sub-Relativistic+ and Liltotto's Vollstandig Form is accepted as being Sub-Relativistic+ for dodging out of the way of it.

Base Hikone scales to Liltotto from this.

And Candice Catnipp, Giselle Gewelle, Meninas McAllon and Shinji Hirako are all scaling to Sub-Relativistic+ via scaling to Hikone.

There are two issues with this to me;

1) We don't know the distance between Liltotto when she started moving and the Auswahlen; you don't need to be as fast as something in order to dodge it. The Sub-Relativistic+ rating should be removed from her Vollstandig key and she should just be rated as "higher" than her base key.

2) This was a feat performed in her Vollstandig form which she lost access to; Hikone shouldn't be scaling to that value through scaling to her base form in the novel.

This would bring Candice's ratings back more in line with her portrayal in the novel where the statements for the speed of her attacks comes from.

 

[RoyGundam]

So if your gut reaction to this thread is, "There's no way any of this can be taken seriously, because we have a character who scales to another character, who scales to another character, who scales to fan-made calculation that puts him at Relativistic speeds..." then all I'll say is that while in a sense that can be corrrect, that doesn't make it objectively correct. That calculation could be wrong. Our scaling could be inaccurate.

^ This is a strawman fallacy. From what I have seen in the recent Bleach CRTs, Renji deflecting Mask de Masculine's laser, for example, doesn't seem to require too many assumptions IMO

 

[Damage3245]

^ This is a strawman fallacy. From what I have seen in the recent Bleach CRTs, Renji deflecting Mask de Masculine's laser, for example, doesn't seem to require too many assumptions IMO

That seems like a random thing to focus on.

Even if that attack was agreed by everyone to be assumed to be lightspeed, that doesn't make the calculation or the result objectively correct. The calc can still very well be wrong.

If you're trying to argue that it is the objectively correct result and therefore everything else can be dismissed without discussion, then I think you horribly missed the point of my post up above.

 

[RoyGundam]

Even if that attack was agreed by everyone to be assumed to be lightspeed, that doesn't make the calculation or the result objectively correct. The calc can still very well be wrong.

If you're trying to argue that it is the objectively correct result and therefore everything else can be dismissed without discussion, then I think you horribly missed the point of my post up above.

I was just pointing out that you created an artificially weak counter-argument to defeat, and giving the example of a stronger counter-argument than this :

"... we have a character who scales to another character, who scales to another character, who scales to fan-made calculation that puts him at Relativistic speeds..."

Because some feats calculations are surprisingly straightforward

 

[Damage3245]

I was just pointing out that you created an artificially weak counter-argument to defeat, and giving the example of a stronger counter-argument than this :

It was purely a hypothetical example. We can get into specifics as they come up, but if I have to generalize then of course I will make a generalization. Responding by saying "I don't think this certain case applies to your generalization" doesn't mean anything. A generalization isn't supposed to cover every single possibility.

Answering "Strawman Fallacy!" when I point out a flaw in a certain mindset doesn't do anything and isn't helpful.

 

[RoyGundam]

It was purely a hypothetical example. We can get into specifics as they come up, but if I have to generalize then of course I will make a generalization. Responding by saying "I don't think this certain case applies to your generalization" doesn't mean anything. A generalization isn't supposed to cover every single possibility.

Answering "Strawman Fallacy!" when I point out a flaw in a certain mindset doesn't do anything and isn't helpful.

But rhetoric is important. You are intentionally making it look like the existing scaling chain is something ridiculous because that helps your argument in this specific case. There is a reason why you phrased it the way you did instead of saying: " ... we have a character who scales to another character, who scales to another character who casually deflected a laser beam/dodged a lightspeed attack (whatever the case may be)"

P.S. : I am not talking about specifics either. I don't even know anything of Bleach speed scaling apart from the recent discussion surrounding Renji's feat

 

[Damage3245]

@RoyGundam; well if you don't know anything, please feel free to read up more about it. Your last couple posts have done nothing to help the discussion.

I can say whatever rhetoric I want, just like everybody else on this thread has been doing so far.

 

[RoyGundam]

I can say whatever rhetoric I want, just like everybody else on this thread has been doing so far.

By the same measure, I can point it out if I feel it is dishonest and manipulative. I don't want to get into an argument with you, I just wanted my view on one of your arguing tactics (just specifically in this thread) to be known to the remaining respondents. You can disagree, that's okay

 

[SilentBob34]

The issue is not that Ginjo is incapable of dodging the lightning arrows; it's that he is incapable of dodging it by much.

I pointed out that while Ginjo could evade the lightning by a narrow margin, that wouldn't be enough for him to escape the damage from it passing by him so he needed to deflect the arrows instead of narrowly dodging them.



That's why we are using "lightning speed" for the arrows, but a low end of lightning speed.



How often do characters use special abilities in one moment and then never display them again anywhere else?



Anyway; my first proposal is basically concerning Liltotto Lamperd and how her current rating affects other characters.

Yhwach's Auswahlen is, as far as I'm aware, accepted as Sub-Relativistic+ and Liltotto's Vollstandig Form is accepted as being Sub-Relativistic+ for dodging out of the way of it.

Base Hikone scales to Liltotto from this.

And Candice Catnipp, Giselle Gewelle, Meninas McAllon and Shinji Hirako are all scaling to Sub-Relativistic+ via scaling to Hikone.

There are two issues with this to me;

1) We don't know the distance between Liltotto when she started moving and the Auswahlen; you don't need to be as fast as something in order to dodge it. The Sub-Relativistic+ rating should be removed from her Vollstandig key and she should just be rated as "higher" than her base key.

2) This was a feat performed in her Vollstandig form which she lost access to; Hikone shouldn't be scaling to that value through scaling to her base form in the novel.

This would bring Candice's ratings back more in line with her portrayal in the novel where the statements for the speed of her attacks comes from.

Did you completely ignore what I said about the lightning feats page? The manga literally has her state how many gigajoules her arrows are and the page clearly states if an electricity attack has power comparable to a natural lightning bolt, then it should have comparable speed. The lightning feats page states you need to have an attack of 1.6 billion joules of lightning to qualify and her arrows contain 5 billion joules. Don’t try and ignore this.

Natural lightning speed is accepted as MHS+ here and with her stating how much joules her arrows have she more than qualifies for at least that. I still don’t see why you’re trying to use a one off comment that her arrows are slower than lightning speed when the manga clearly contradicts it

 

[Damage3245]

Did you completely ignore what I said about the lightning feats page? The manga literally has her state how many gigajoules her arrows are and the page clearly states if an electricity attack has power comparable to a natural lightning bolt, then it should have comparable speed. The lightning feats page states you need to have an attack of 1.6 billion joules of lightning to qualify and her arrows contain 5 billion joules. Don’t try and ignore this.

How am I ignoring this exactly?

We are treating her arrows as having "lightning speed" for both that, and the passages from the light novels. The figure of Mach 1294 from the lightning feats page is an average value from a scientific study.

Since her arrows also stated in the manga to be "pretty slow for lightning" and "slower than actual lightning speed", it was decided in a previous thread to use the low end for lightning speed for her arrows.

So... yeah, that page has already been taken into account.

EDIT: SilentBob; to make it as clear as possible; the information you've brought up hasn't been ignored. It was discussed in a previous thread, that's all.

 

[SilentBob34]

How am I ignoring this exactly?

We are treating her arrows as having "lightning speed" for both that, and the passages from the light novels. The figure of Mach 1294 from the lightning feats page is an average value from a scientific study.

Since her arrows also stated in the manga to be "pretty slow for lightning" and "slower than actual lightning speed", it was decided in a previous thread to use the low end for lightning speed for her arrows.

So... yeah, that page has already been taken into account.

EDIT: SilentBob; to make it as clear as possible; the information you've brought up hasn't been ignored. It was discussed in a previous thread, that's all.

Dude, are you serious? What I brought I’m pretty sure has never been discussed before. Her arrows were never once stated in the manga to be “slower than lightning” that was in the novel which you’ve already made inaccurate sayings with the whole Gin’s Shinso thing. Narita contradicts himself a lot in the novel so you can’t assume everything he says is 100% correct when the manga 100% contradicts it. You’re seriously falling apart with your argument man

 

[Damage3245]

Dude, are you serious? What I brought I’m pretty sure has never been discussed before. Her arrows were never once stated in the manga to be “slower than lightning” that was in the novel which you’ve already made inaccurate sayings with the whole Gin’s Shinso thing. Narita contradicts himself a lot in the novel so you can’t assume everything he says is 100% correct when the manga 100% contradicts it. You’re seriously falling apart with your agreement man

Alright, you've just decided to ignore my posts then. Have a nice day SilentBob.

 

[SilentBob34]

Alright, you've just decided to ignore my posts then. Have a nice day SilentBob.

Alright you’re acting like her arrows being 10x slower than the regular lightning speed accepted on this site is somehow comparable to it when the lightning feat page clearly states if an attack contains at least 1.6 billion joules it should have speed comparable to natural lightning speed. Real mature dude

you literally haven’t addressed what’s on the page at all. I’m actually kinda surprised. You haven’t even commented on the Gin Zanpakuto thing that you got so wrong

 

[Damage3245]

Alright you’re acting like her arrows being 10x slower than the regular lightning speed accepted on this site is somehow comparable to it when the lightning feat page clearly states if an attack contains at least 1.6 billion joules it should have speed comparable to natural lightning speed. Real mature dude

you literally haven’t addressed what’s on the page at all. I’m actually kinda surprised. You haven’t even commented on the Gin Zanpakuto thing that you got so wrong

Not 10x slower, more like 4x slower.

It is what is currently accepted on Candice's profile.

That page isn't saying what you think it is saying. It doesn't say "If an attack has 1.6 billion joules than it has to be travelling at Mach 1294". The additional context provided by the novels helps detirmine what we rate the speed of her attacks as. You do realize that the speed of her lightning arrows on her profile is also a speed that natural lightning can travel at?

If somebody used a lightning attack and their lightning was confirmed by multiple sources to be 33% of the speed of light, you wouldn't say "Nope! According to our page, lightning can only be Mach 1294!"

I have already commented on the Gin Zanpakuto thing and I stated that I misinterpreted it. Why don't you try being more mature yourself for a change? Anyone can make mistakes.

 

[SilentBob34]

Not 10x slower, more like 4x slower.

It is what is currently accepted on Candice's profile.

That page isn't saying what you think it is saying. It doesn't say "If an attack has 1.6 billion joules than it has to be travelling at Mach 1294". The additional context provided by the novels helps detirmine what we rate the speed of her attacks as. You do realize that the speed of her lightning arrows on her profile is also a speed that natural lightning can travel at?

If somebody used a lightning attack and their lightning was confirmed by multiple sources to be 33% of the speed of light, you wouldn't say "Nope! According to our page, lightning can only be Mach 1294!"

I have already commented on the Gin Zanpakuto thing and I stated that I misinterpreted it. Why don't you try being more mature yourself for a change? Anyone can make mistakes.

Yeah please quote where you said your were wrong about Gin’s Zanpakuto thing because I just looked through the entire thread and didn’t see a single comment about it.

low end lightning speed is I’m pretty sure Mach 290 on this site and that’s 10x slower than the average speed on this site (if I’m wrong please correct me). There is no additional context from the novel, you’re trying to use a novel that clearly contradicts itself in multiple places and sorry, that just doesn’t hold up.
Exactly like you using Tokinada to try and act like it’s impressive he’s lightning speed when in the past it was denied that the assassins fighting can’t be lightning speed when the comment isn’t clear enough

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah please quote where you said your were wrong about Gin’s Zanpakuto thing because I just looked through the entire thread and didn’t see a single comment about it.

This post.

"I'm in the process of having to re-organize the OP because some of the information in there has been pointed out to be misinterpreted by me."

low end lightning speed is I’m pretty sure Mach 290 on this site and that’s 10x slower than the average speed on this site (if I’m wrong please correct me).

Average speed is Mach 1294.

10x Mach 290 would be Mach 2900.

There is no additional context from the novel, you’re trying to use a novel that clearly contradicts itself in multiple places and sorry, that just doesn’t hold up.

Do you want to ban using the novel from the wiki?

Exactly like you using Tokinada to try and act like it’s impressive he’s lightning speed when in the past it was denied that the assassins fighting can’t be lightning speed when the comment isn’t clear enough

The comment wasn't clear enough for the assertation that was being put forward in the past, yeah. I think it's pretty clear for the point I'm making though.

 

[SilentBob34]

This post.

"I'm in the process of having to re-organize the OP because some of the information in there has been pointed out to be misinterpreted by me."



Average speed is Mach 1294.

10x Mach 290 would be Mach 2900.



Do you want to ban using the novel from the wiki?



The comment wasn't clear enough for the assertation that was being put forward in the past, yeah. I think it's pretty clear for the point I'm making though.

Dude thank you for providing that and yeah I don’t know why I thought Mach 290 was 10x slower than Mach 1294 I’ll comment again in a little bit if that’s cool

 

[Damage3245]

Dude thank you for providing that and yeah I don’t know why I thought Mach 290 was 10x slower than Mach 1294 I’ll comment again in a little bit if that’s cool

No problem.

If your issue though is "The novel gets some things wrong or questionable, so we shouldn't use anything from the novel" then that's like dismissing entire databooks because of questionable or incorrect passages. We usually treat these things on a case-by-case basis.

 

[SilentBob34]

No problem.

If your issue though is "The novel gets some things wrong or questionable, so we shouldn't use anything from the novel" then that's like dismissing entire databooks because of questionable or incorrect passages. We usually treat these things on a case-by-case basis.

No man I’m seriously sorry for not realizing those 2 things I said

my problem with the novel is things get contradicted in the manga not that we shouldn’t use it but you’re right it is a case by case basis.

When the novel says things like people faster than beginning SS arc Ichigo have trouble reacting to Gin’s shikai, Candice’s arrows being slower than lightning even though the manga states her arrows are more powerful than natural lightning and therefore should have a comparable speed. I don’t think a 4x difference is really comparable, Ginjo’s getsuga’s being as strong as Ichigo’s strongest when it’s stated Ichigo could easily beat Hikone while Ginjo might put up a decent fight etc.

that goes to show not every quote said in the novel is reliable and shouldn’t be used to push as fact. The fact that Candice’s arrows contain more than 3x the amount of joules needed to be comparable in speed to the natural speed of lightning on this site shows her arrows shouldn’t be considered the absolutely allow end of lightning speed and I’m very adamant on that given it’s directly stated in the rules

 

[SilentBob34]

Given the fact her Electrocution is stated to have power surpassing any in nature and her arrows having more power than natural lightning and pretty much would be the same speed as the high end of lightning on this site proves her arrows at the very least should have speed comparable to natural lightning

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm going to snag the raws for the Electrocution statement because I've been asked to, maybe it will clarify things.

 

[Damage3245]

Candice’s arrows being slower than lightning even though the manga states her arrows are more powerful than natural lightning and therefore should have a comparable speed.

There's no reason why her arrows couldn't have more joules than an average lightning bolt and still be slower.

Given the fact her Electrocution is stated to have power surpassing any in nature and her arrows having more power than natural lightning and pretty much would be the same speed as the high end of lightning on this site proves her arrows at the very least should have speed comparable to natural lightning

Did you miss the part where I said that her arrows are already comparable to natural lightning?

Ginjo’s getsuga’s being as strong as Ichigo’s strongest when it’s stated Ichigo could easily beat Hikone while Ginjo might put up a decent fight etc.

This thread isn't about that statement.

The fact that Candice’s arrows contain more than 3x the amount of joules needed to be comparable in speed to the natural speed of lightning on this site shows her arrows shouldn’t be considered the absolutely allow end of lightning speed and I’m very adamant on that given it’s directly stated in the rules

The guidelines say:

for practical purposes, concerning attacks that are electricity-based, if they display power comparable to that of natural lightning, they should be considered to move at a comparable speed

This is taken into account for the arrows by giving them low end natural lightning speed, as a result of being stated more than once to be slower than lightning.

 

[SilentBob34]

There's no reason why her arrows couldn't have more joules than an average lightning bolt and still be slower.



Did you miss the part where I said that her arrows are already comparable to natural lightning?



This thread isn't about that statement.



The guidelines say:



This is taken into account for the arrows by giving them low end natural lightning speed, as a result of being stated more than once to be slower than lightning.

I respond more in a bit but 4x slower than average lightning isn’t comparable