Bleach Bankai General Discussion Thread 27

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

didnt tsukishima in full bring arc say that byakuyas controlled bankai feels much faster than two times ?

All captains and vice captains became a lot more stronger in those 17 months but we dont know by how much just that is was a **** ton

 

[Naeblis495]

i don't make the rules. i would personally give him a better multiplier but on this wiki, "Much faster" is too vague to give a clear number.

 

[Damage3245]

Where does Gerard show he is equal to Byakuya doubling the speed of his Bankai?

If he only reacted to an attack, then wouldn't that just scale to his reaction speed?

 

[USklaverei]

Here at the very beginning, when he transforms, he intercepts without any problem.
Later, he also interrupts the onslaught of Byakuya and Toshiro together.

 

[Damage3245]

The whole scaling around Tsukishima, Byakuya and later Gerard seems weird.

Byakuya can fight against Tsukishima with his Shikai for an extended period of time but can't land a hit on him with double his Bankai's speed?

We put Bankai Byakuya as FTL for fighting resurrected Gerard Valkyrie but almost the entire fight was off-screen so we don't know that his doubled Bankai speed wasn't used against him. For all we know his 2x Bankai speed could be equal to 1.29c instead of his base Bankai.

I don't think Tsukishima should be scaling to double Byakuya's Bankai speed, nor should Byakuya's base speed be automatically assumed to be equal to Gerard. For all we know Renji did most of the fighting against Gerard in their offscreen fight and Byakuya contributed to the finishing blow.

 

[Purgy]

If he's able to block Byakuya's attacks then I don't see an issue with that speed rating.

Also what's with the scrutiny? If a character has fought another character and neither was shown to be noticeably faster than the other, then they scale. That's how it's always been, don't see why that's suddenly an issue when a huge portion of the profiles on this wiki scale speed in that way.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I just remembered that old man zangetsu used quincy shadow and blut vene on ichigo in the SS arc

 

[Damage3245]

@Purgy; he didn't block Byakuya's double-speed attacks, he just got into range and diverted Byakuya's hand slightly so that Byakuya would be hit by his own attack. Then he failed to react to Byakuya attacking him directly with the sword-petals in his hands after that.

As for Gerard, I think it does warrant scrutiny. We're basically saying that Byakuya is 1.29c for this page, even though the whole rest of the fight was off-screen.

 

[USklaverei]

Tsukishima throughout the fight was playing with Byakuya and even Byakuya doubling his speed (Tsukishima said it seemed to be much faster than that) he still couldn't hit Tsukishima, so I don't know where you're seeing trouble here.

Byakuya climbs directly from Renji if he so prefers, so at the end of the day it will remain the same.

 

[Naeblis495]

Tsukishima was playing around(it is in his characther to torture his opponents) , never got hit by senbonzakura during the entire fight and only got hit after lowering his guard thinking the fight was over. He was never blitzed when actually fighting so he scale .

senbonzakura is as fast as renji in the panel you linked , so he scale too .

 

[Damage3245]

Tsukukimshima was on the ropes against Shikai Byakuya until he managed to cut his sword and learn what his techniques were.

And he completely failed to react to Byakuya's final attack. This is a pretty big inconsistency. He specifically didn't lower his guard because he was preparing for Byakuya to use a possible Kido.

 

[Naeblis495]

How is that an inconsistency ? people don't go all out from the start of the battle.

And this doesn't change the fact that tsukishima dodged and evaded pretty much everything byakuya threw at him, be it regular sword slash , shikai , bankai and 2x bankai even when byakuya started improvising by making his petals go inside his safe zone . He only got defeated by being sucker punch'd

You litterally can't say he doesn't scale without being disingeneous.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Does anyone have the proper Bleach Timeline of events ? Because I keep getting confused, like nothing gets to December in the Arrancar. It just feels like everything happened in just October

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Out of curiosity, why do Monster Flyzen and Dangai Ichigo being transcendent mean they scale above Hikone at full power?

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, that was going to be one of my other questions. I'd like to know the evidence supporting that.

 

[AppleLord]

I don't remember well, but was the Palace that Aura created the same size as Reiokyu?

No

The novel says that Aura created an entire replica of the Soul King's palace in the valley of screams.

 

[AppleLord]

Out of curiosity, why do Monster Flyzen and Dangai Ichigo being transcendent mean they scale above Hikone at full power?

I don't like either to be honest. The constant "he is Transcendent so he scales above everyone" don't add up with me at all. Shikai Kenpachi has better feats than those two characters and Orihime "not transcedent" scales above them in defense. Yamamoto in shikai was stated to have transcedent reiatsu in the soul arc by the host of the arm of the Soul King, mimihagi. I forgot the captains name. They shouldn't scale because they're transcedent.

 

[Purgy]

Out of curiosity, why do Monster Flyzen and Dangai Ichigo being transcendent mean they scale above Hikone at full power?

Yamamoto in shikai was stated to have transcedent reiatsu in the soul arc by the host of the arm of the Soul King, mimihagi. I forgot the captains name.

Which chapter was this said? I don't remember it.

 

[USklaverei]

The novel says that Aura created an entire replica of the Soul King's palace in the valley of screams.

That is what I wanted to know, so with that we can find Aura's lift strength.

 

[Zoro21043]

Out of curiosity, why do Monster Flyzen and Dangai Ichigo being transcendent mean they scale above Hikone at full power?

Yamamoto in shikai was stated to have transcedent reiatsu in the soul arc by the host of the arm of the Soul King, mimihagi. I forgot the captains name.

Which chapter was this said? I don't remember it.

https://v1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0156-008.png

i believe this , but i dont think it was literally as ukitake could sense him unless we consider ukitake a transcendent due to the mimihagi

 

[Purgy]

Yes it's not literal, and definitely not evident enough.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I can still understand Ichigo with his true zanpakuto and by extension Yhwach and Aizen scaling above Hikone, since I believe it's heavily implied Ichigo and Co. are removed from Karakura intentionally by the villain in CFYOW, and that seems to imply that Tokinada doesn't think Hikone or anything else in his arsenal can deal with Ichigo at full power. However, I agree with Apple nothing indicates to me that Dangai Ichigo and Monster Flyzen are above Hikone's full capabilities.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

You mean except the fact that it's literally stated Ichigo is one of the only people who could handle Hikone?

"Then, Hisagi turned to face Hikone. Some people wanted to lend a hand, but after Hisagi's exchange with Zaraki, they backed away because the battle was meant to be one-on-one. There were not many warriors who could deal with such an opponent; except Kurosaki Ichigo, Aizen Sosuke and Zaraki Kenpachi. At the very least, perhaps Urahara Kisuke or Kurotsuchi Mayuri could find a way to resist this opponent."

Why even wank Hikone if he accomplished nothing.

 

[Duedate8898]

But isn't this the Ichigo after getting his powers back and getting stronger, and the same Aizen that's just been boiling in his ever growing spiritual pressure?

Not Dangai Ichigo and Before EOS Aizen?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Dangai Ichigo is the same as Ichigo with his new Shikai... it's legit stated by Yhwach he regained that power. It's even in said justification.

 

[Duedate8898]

Yeah but this Ichigo also has his merged hollow form in hand which we consider a boost to his power.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That boost makes him 5-B, literally no one knows about the existence of that form but a few select individual. Why would they randomly be talking about Ichigo with his hollow form who has never once mentioned in the novel?

You might as well make Kenpachi 5-B via this logic since he's compared.

 

[Duedate8898]

Whose talking in this quote? Because from the looks of it, it's a narrator who isn't a part of the story itself.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

What's up with this kid? The hell kind of Reiatsu is being emitting? Grasping the amount of Reiatsu contained within the small body of the youngster who gave its name as Hikone, Hirako speculates that this person was something else entirely with the form of a child. —— Sure enough, I can't call it Aizen or Ichigo level… but it's still without doubt remarkable. The Reiatsu this mysterious Shinigami possessed was already extraordinary enough as it is.


It's literally stated Ichigo and Aizen are on another level entirely compared to Hikone. Whoever is saying the quote doesn't matter if it's the narrator or not in this scenario, a little thinking would tell you they're not talking about 5-B Ichigo man.

 

[Duedate8898]

But both Ichigo and Aizen are planet level threats at this point aren't they? In reference two planet level characters are being talked about, and not only that, but the person in question is being referred to as beneath by the one making this statement.

It sounds a lot like they're talking about 5-B Ichigo and Aizen.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Ight

 

[Tekazemikauchi]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:USklaverei/ScaledThis is the scale based on what Damage said I believe, I modified some things, but if someone finds it wrong and wants to modify it, they can feel free

If Hisagi was able to keep up with Kensei in the training, shouldn't he have Sub-Relativistic or relativistic speed?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah I figure by the comparison to Aizen and the fact that Ichigo fought with his True Bankai (which is 5-B) down in Soul Society, that they're saying Hikone doesn't compare to EoS Aizen or True Bankai Ichigo (and by extent True Shikai Merged Hollow Form Ichigo), meaning True Bankai Ichigo and all who scale from him would scale above Hikone. However, that doesn't include True Shikai Ichigo and by extension Dangai Ichigo and Monster Flyzen. As far as the Kenpachi thing goes, it's not far fetched to say he's gotten a good deal stronger since the TYBW since he'd have ten years to master his zanpakuto, and saying Kenpachi could handle Hikone at that point in time doesn't mean Kenpachi could handle Ichigo or Aizen. Plus it appears Hirako only says that Hikone doesn't approach Ichigo or Aizen levels, to me when combined with the "only Zaraki, Ichigo, and Aizen can handle Hikone" that seems to say Ichigo/Aizen are far above Hikone and Zaraki is greater than or equal to Hikone.

TLDR: True Shikai Merged Hollow Form Ichigo and his stronger forms, EoS Aizen, Yhwach forms that fight Ichigo, and CFYOW Zaraki scale above Hikone, but Dangai Ichigo and Monster Flyzen wouldn't scale from Hikone.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I feel like I'm being trolled here.

This novel doesn't take place 10 years after or anything of the sorts. It's only a couple months after the war.

Why is it so hard for some people to understand True Shikai is equal to Dangai Ichigo. The scan is legit right there in the profile of Ichigo. Why is his 5-B form being randomly mentioned here when Hikone can't even fight Kenpachi without his Shikai.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That's my bad about the 10 years part I thought it took place after the final chapter of Bleach. Yeah I concede my earlier points. I just didn't understand why being Transcedent meant above Hikone. So the rationale would be, True Shikai Ichigo scales to or above Zaraki who scales above Hikone at full power, and I agree Dangai Ichigo = True Shikai Ichigo, so Dangai Ichigo (and by extent Monster Flyzen) scales above Hikone.

 

[Duedate8898]

I'm not trolling, I'm just saying the ones being compared are both EOS characters who are planet level.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I'm not trolling, I'm just saying the ones being compared are both EOS characters who are planet level.

You dont seem to understand that base ichigo with true shikai = dangai ichigo that is the problem you dont seem to notice

 

[Duedate8898]

I understand that fine, what I don't understand is why we're trying to use a statement about much more powerful and later versions of Ichigo and Aizen to justify the strength of previous versions of Icihgo and Aizen.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I understand that fine, what I don't understand is why we're trying to use a statement about much more powerful and later versions of Ichigo and Aizen to justify the strength of previous versions of Icihgo and Aizen.

There is no "20 years later" when the new attack starts only like what? 3 months and ichigo has been in the world of the living enjoing his free time so he is not training and becoming stronger, also people have only seen base shikai ichigo no one exept for a very few people have seen his bankai + horn of salvation form also this is what makes him 5B his base is already stronger than all of the people that have fought hikone and by extend making dangai above hikone

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Aizen is a Trancendent which Hikone is.

But Dangai Ichigo is a Transcendent that transcends other Transcendents (Aizen).

Dangai Ichigo is above Hikone who is only a Transcendent.