Blazblue AP Revisions : No more lowballing

[Comicgyal]

Hey everyone, this thread will mostly be focused on the current 5-A tier ratings for Blazblue characters on site.

Azure Fragments

The basis for the revisions are from mini fragments of the Azure, that the characters obtain through their battle with Izanami in their act 2 arcade modes.

Azure fragments by Izanami’s own accord are pieces of the original azure, than can grant anyones wish. These “wishes” which are the deepest desires of a character, construct their own world. These worlds hold all possibilities of their universe, which as we know are infinite.

Nine as well reaffirms this— letting us know that after one of the chosen defeats Izanami, their wish is materialized in their current world by the Azure.

The world created by each character is a real, tangible world, that contains copies of every character. (We see Kagura in Bang’s recreation)

Because the worlds created have infinite possibilities, and is also layered onto their actual world, it’s not a simple “universe” but each world is a replica of the main cosmology. At the weakest it’s a 2-A cosmology, due to holding the infinite possibilities of every character. Once you take into account that all the possibilities of the main world + the general cosmology is included (A boundary, which transcends space and time) it becomes low 1-C.

in Blazblue dark war we’re also told this fragments can create embodiments of concepts, and collapse all possibilities into certainties. So despite it being just a fragment, it’s very notable.
Why this matters

These feats are made great by some other arcade interactions, there are multiple characters who are capable of crushing these fragments in their bare hands.

Here we have Relius destroying a fragment in his palm, and then saying that it isn’t interesting.

Next we have Terumi, who after claiming the Azure’s power wouldn’t be enough to sustain him, also destroys it underneath his foot.

Jin also shreds the azure with his sword, and finally there’s Azrael.

Then there’s characters like Clavis Alucard, whose power is so great, even the azure cannot resurrect him.

To Summarize

So to summarize, we have a fragment of the Azure that is capable of creating an entire replica of their cosmology using its power. There are multiple characters who can destroy said azure fragment in their bare hands, and even some characters that are so strong, that the fragment itself doesn’t matter to them.

Because of this, many characters need their current 5-A ratings replaced with low 1-C, due to being able to destroy azure fragments casually.

 

[Strife304]

I agree, and cant wait for the discussion to begin.

 

[Theglassman12]

Why didn't you wait for me to get through the mobile game before making the CRT?

Anyways, hard disagree with the upgrade to tier 1 for the cast. The azure having all possibilities is clearly referring to the true azure, not the fragments, Izanami never once specified she was giving away fragments of the azure to the chosen. Further proven in your scan where it said it will take one of the chosen's wishes and materializes it not all of their wishes. Especially considering that Ragna with the true azure was capable of making that possible, something Amane himself has never seen in person before despite fighting izanami and being aware of the azure fragments, at best that's a Low 2-C feat given how worlds is treated in the verse.

Also you're ignoring some context with Valkenhayn, that's still a small fragment of the azure which wouldn't be able to hold the reality up forever, and Noel's literal existence was preventing any of their dreams from being true due to her status as the successor of the azure. It has nothing to do with Clavis being so powerful they couldn't bring him back.

 

[Comicgyal]

Anyways, hard disagree with the upgrade to tier 1 for the cast. The azure having all possibilities is clearly referring to the true azure, not the fragments, Izanami never once specified she was giving away fragments of the azure to the chosen.

Did you not read any of the scans, like at all? Izanami literally tells Carl that the chosen that defeats her, will be given the azure that holds all the possibilities of their world.

And when Carl defeats her, she gives him an azure fragment and lets him create his own world.

Where are you getting the true azure from?

The entire point of the act 2 arcade modes, is that characters defeat Izanami, obtain an azure fragment, create their world, only for it to crumble because Noel’s will overshadows all of their own. So what do you mean she never gave them an azure fragment? I’ve already shown that she did.

Especially considering that Ragna with the true azure was capable of making that possible, something Amane himself has never seen in person before despite fighting izanami and being aware of the azure fragments, at best that's a Low 2-C feat given how worlds is treated in the verse.

Amane has never seen the true azure. She also tells Carl that his world, is one of many worlds. So it’s not just his world that resides in the fragment, but everyone’s.

Also you're ignoring some context with Valkenhayn, that's still a small fragment of the azure which wouldn't be able to hold the reality up forever, and Noel's literal existence was preventing any of their dreams from being true due to her status as the successor of the azure. It has nothing to do with Clavis being so powerful they couldn't bring him back.

Noel’s intervention is only part of the reason, in all cases of a fragment being used, the world was still able to be made, and then Noel intervened on it. Clavis could literally not be constructed by the azure fragment.

Even if you don’t accept that one, terumi himself says that the azure is useless to him, because it won’t make him a vessel that can sustain him for long enough.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Seems reasonable enough, leaning towards agree.

 

[Strife304]

Also you're ignoring some context with Valkenhayn, that's still a small fragment of the azure which wouldn't be able to hold the reality up forever, and Noel's literal existence was preventing any of their dreams from being true due to her status as the successor of the azure. It has nothing to do with Clavis being so powerful they couldn't bring him back.

You're outright ignoring the fact that their wishes did manifest as a genuine reality prior to being overwritten, to say otherwise is dishonest since Comic provided scans where its explicitly stated. Which is what makes the case of Clavis and making a vessel for Terumi particularly about power. Nothing this fragment could create would be able to compare to his original body (Susano'o), and the Azure outright shattered trying to resurrect Clavis Alucard -- which had nothing to do with Noel intervening unlike other cases.

Yet, despite those two particular cases, it can still create infinite possibilities based around a single person's wish.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Comicgyal did you pay attention to what Izanami actually gives the chosen in the end? Because everyone that knows enough about the azure flat out points out to her that it’s only a fragment of the azure and not the full azure itself. Also where did I say she never gave the fragments? I said she never gave the FULL azure to anyone, otherwise how the **** does anyone else get the fragments too?

And it can only make one wish come true, meaning it's not creating all of the worlds or possibilities for the chosen.

No, Noel's existence is the ONLY reason their wishes can never come true, that's literally the entire point of everyone hunting down Noel, because they're trying to make their dreams come true. The azure fragmenting has nothing to do with Clavis' power, do you have any scans whatsoever that claims his power is too great for the azure to bring back? Because that's not at all what's said in the scans.

Yeah, the FRAGMENT that's given to him is useless, he was trying to get the full azure but only got the fragment, hence why he threw it away since it wasn't gonna be any long time help.

@Strife304 Where does it say that their wishes came true? Literally none of their wishes came true whatsoever because Noel's existence overwritten it. Also no it doesn't make infinite possibilities, you keep mixing the fragments of the azure to the full azure, the full azure has all the possibilities, the fragments don't, otherwise no one in the story would point out how useless the fragment is to them.

 

[Comicgyal]

@Comicgyal did you pay attention to what Izanami actually gives the chosen in the end? Because everyone that knows enough about the azure flat out points out to her that it’s only a fragment of the azure and not the full azure itself. Also where did I say she never gave the fragments? I said she never gave the FULL azure to anyone, otherwise how the **** does anyone else get the fragments too?

And it can only make one wish come true, meaning it's not creating all of the worlds or possibilities for the chosen.

But is this thread about Izanami giving them the full azure, or her giving them fragments?

I don’t care about the entire azure, the whole point is what the fragments of the Azure can do. You trying to nitpick the “one wish” literally doesn’t help your argument at all, since Izanami herself said that a fragment contains ALL the possibilities of their world.

Unless you have something to disprove that, you’re arguing against me with actually nothing. Disprove this.

[

Yeah, the FRAGMENT that's given to him is useless, he was trying to get the full azure but only got the fragment, hence why he threw it away since it wasn't gonna be any long time help.

That’s what I said. He acknowledges that the fragment, despite their ability to create an entire multiverse full of infinite possibilities, is useless to him.

@Strife304 Where does it say that their wishes came true? Literally none of their wishes came true whatsoever because Noel's existence overwritten it. Also no it doesn't make infinite possibilities, you keep mixing the fragments of the azure to the full azure, the full azure has all the possibilities, the fragments don't, otherwise no one in the story would point out how useless the fragment is to them.

The azure does create their wishes, but because their wishes are corrupt they are ultimately destroyed. Stop mentioning the full azure, Izanami was NOT talking about the full azure when she mentioned infinite possibilities. The fact that you’re trying to argue that she was, literally makes no sense, even plot wise.

Why in the moment, would Izanami tell Carl that the full azure can create infinite possibilities, when the whole purpose of their fight is to give him a fragment? Carl even acknowledges this, and says he needs to defeat her and gain the azure for himself.

How would defeating Izanami in that moment, grant Carl the full azure you keep talking about?

Unless you’re suggesting both Carl and Izanami are idiots, the argument you’re making is not held up by what actually happens in the story. So basically, to make an actual, logical argument that makes sense, you have to prove that when Izanami made that statement to Carl, she meant the full azure, despite the context of their conversation being about a fragment.

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

So... You tell me anyone can destroy the Azure by a palm like Terumi and Relius, which make him 1-C level? Wait a minute The arcade are canon or maybe... Non canon by Mori I don't remember.

 

[Comicgyal]

The arcades being canon or not is not our topic of discussion, but yes, them destroying those fragments boosts their physicals to low 1-C.

 

[Strife304]

So... You tell me anyone can destroy the Azure by a palm like Terumi and Relius, which make him 1-C level? Wait a minute The arcade are canon or maybe... Non canon by Mori I don't remember.

The Arcade routes are canon. They come before the main story ( which comes with the console release ) on the Arcade cabinets in japan.

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

The arcades being canon or not is not our topic of discussion, but yes, them destroying those fragments boosts their physicals to low 1-C.

I see. Thank you for replying.

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

The Arcade routes are canon. They come before the main story ( which comes with the console release ) on the Arcade cabinets in japan.

Ah. If it's true then they can become 1-C levels possible. We must waiting for theglassman's argument.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Comicgyal You haven't proved that the fragments contained all the possibilities, Izanami mentions the azure, not an azure, it's explicitly shown numerous times that the azures that izanami gives isn't the same as the real one, just a far inferior version. The burden of proof is on you that she's referring to the fragments and not the full thing as she never makes it clear to the chosens that she's only giving them a small fraction, something Terumi himself points out is a load of bull.

It's useless to him because it's not the real thing, he wants the real azure for himself, he's not gonna use a small fragment.

No that's never said whatsoever, every single chosen's wishes was never granted because Noel's existence prevented it, and yes she clearly was talking about the azure, otherwise why would she mention the azure and not an azure? If she said any single fragment can do it then you might have an argument but she didn't so you need to prove the fragments have this.

Carl literally has no idea that Izanami's only giving her a fraction, he's not Relius where he knows everything on the fly because he's in tuned with all of reality and shit. Everyone, even Jin believes that the fragments are the real thing, which they're not, and again, Terumi points that out to her in his arcade mode that she's basically lying to everyone.

Since when did I say that Izanami's an idiot here? She literally lures them in to "give their wish" only to tell them they need to kill Noel for their wish to come true, which causes doomsday, if anything this is one of the smartest things she's done in the series since she's making everyone do her dirty work for her. Carl's just oblivious to the entire thing as he doesn't know the difference between the fragment of the azure and the full thing, even Jin of all people didn't know that since he believed breaking the fragment meant destroying the entire thing. Before you make any assumptions here try and pay attention to the scans I'm posting, because there's major holes in your argument.

 

[BayonettaxMinaj]

Seems sound to me. I agree.

 

[Comicgyal]

@Comicgyal You haven't proved that the fragments contained all the possibilities, Izanami mentions the azure, not an azure, it's explicitly shown numerous times that the azures that izanami gives isn't the same as the real one, just a far inferior version. The burden of proof is on you that she's referring to the fragments and not the full thing as she never makes it clear to the chosens that she's only giving them a small fraction, something Terumi himself points out is a load of bull.

I did, actually, and Nine’s dialogue with Hakumen is all the proof I need. In her talk with Hakumen she says

“One of the chosen that defeated Izanami and obtained the Azure. The azure takes the chosen’s wishes and materializes them in this world.”

As she’s talking to Hakumen about the worlds being created, she literally shows him flashes of them. These flashes include the worlds that the cast created in their second arcade, after defeating Izanami and obtaining a fragment. For example we have Bang, Tsubaki, and Carl, the same character who Izanami EXPLICITLY TOLD that his world was going to be created by the Azure.

Once again we have Nine talking to the chosen, and telling Valk that if he wants his visions to be a reality, there’s an Avenue to do so. Then Valk goes to Izanami, and is told that he can recreate the world as he wishes. To which Valk responds by saying the azure she has in her possession means nothing to him. She even suggests him to rewrite the past, which is what leads him to try resurrecting Clavis.

The characters not being told that it’s a “fragment of the azure” and not the “full azure” means absolutely nothing. It would contradict her entire plan, because telling them about the true azure would make her act pointless.

I’ve proven through Nine, and Izanami herself, that the fragments she gave held the infinite possibilities of her world. It’s up to you now to refute that. Your arguments fall flat, because you’re trying to point out that some characters mention that the azure is just a fragment, while also ignoring Izanami and Nine’s own statements on what those azure fragments can do.

Terumi pointed out that Izanami was lying, because the azure fragment isn’t a permanent solution. Not because the fragments don’t hold infinite possibilities (as Nine literally showed us) and not because it couldn’t grant wishes.

 

[Theglassman12]

No you did not pay attention to what Terumi said, he literally says and I quote "The so-called Azure... makes any dream world a reality. People believe this bull and fight over it. Haha, you've got some sick tastes, woman. This is just a fragment, it's useless to me." He calls her out by saying she's lying to everyone about giving them their dreams, which she does not deny because that was never her end goal. Saying it contradicts her entire plan is flat out ignoring what her entire plan is in the first place. She gets all of the chosen to come to her and make them believe their ideal world will come true, and mention Noel's mere existence is preventing that, so killing her would make their dreams come true. Her entire goal is to start Doomsday, which will happen if Noel dies, something numerous characters point out as she's the main person sustaining the worlds.

Valkenhayn saying the azure means nothing to him is just him saying he doesn't need it. As of that point in the story there's no reason for him to seek the azure whatsoever. It's like saying someone is comparable to the power of a sniper rifle because they don't need said gun when it has nothing to do with their power, just what they want.

 

[Comicgyal]

No you did not pay attention to what Terumi said, he literally says and I quote "The so-called Azure... makes any dream world a reality. People believe this bull and fight over it. Haha, you've got some sick tastes, woman. This is just a fragment, it's useless to me." He calls her out by saying she's lying to everyone about giving them their dreams, which she does not deny because that was never her end goal. Saying it contradicts her entire plan is flat out ignoring what her entire plan is in the first place. She gets all of the chosen to come to her and make them believe their ideal world will come true, and mention Noel's mere existence is preventing that, so killing her would make their dreams come true. Her entire goal is to start Doomsday, which will happen if Noel dies, something numerous characters point out as she's the main person sustaining the worlds.

Valkenhayn saying the azure means nothing to him is just him saying he doesn't need it. As of that point in the story there's no reason for him to seek the azure whatsoever. It's like saying someone is comparable to the power of a sniper rifle because they don't need said gun when it has nothing to do with their power, just what they want.

You’re not addressing my point, and instead fixating on Terumi saying that it was a lie. Yes it’s a lie, after every arcade mode Izanami tells the chosen that their dreams will never become a reality because Noel vermillion exists. But this is AFTER the dreams are made. It’s as Nine said, the worlds will rebuild themselves endlessly, no matter who the chosen is, because Noel stands above them all.
The fragments can grant their wish, but because of Noel those wishes will never be permanent.

I’m not engaging in this circular argument any longer, you need to disprove:

I did, actually, and Nine’s dialogue with Hakumen is all the proof I need. In her talk with Hakumen she says

“One of the chosen that defeated Izanami and obtained the Azure. The azure takes the chosen’s wishes and materializes them in this world.”

As she’s talking to Hakumen about the worlds being created, she literally shows him flashes of them. These flashes include the worlds that the cast created in their second arcade, after defeating Izanami and obtaining a fragment. For example we have Bang, Tsubaki, and Carl, the same character who Izanami EXPLICITLY TOLD that his world was going to be created by the Azure.

This entire segment. Because according to Nine the fragments hold infinite possibilities, and she showed us that it does.

 

[Comicgyal]

Valkenhayn saying the azure means nothing to him is just him saying he doesn't need it. As of that point in the story there's no reason for him to seek the azure whatsoever. It's like saying someone is comparable to the power of a sniper rifle because they don't need said gun when it has nothing to do with their power, just what they want.

This analogy makes no sense and also isn’t needed, I didn’t put his statement there as a feat, but to show that even azure fragments can just be referred to as “Azure” and that when a character is told to recreate the world, they’re referring to the use of a fragment.

can someone also tag more staff here? We wont get anywhere at this rate.

 

[Theglassman12]

So you admit it’s a lie, meaning what Izanami is telling to everyone isn’t 100% true because she’s not giving them the real azure. Meaning your argument with Carl doesn’t line up whatsoever.

you have not proven Nine is referring to the fragments at all, where the hell does it say the fragments and not just the entire azure? Because she keeps referring to the azure as the entire thing. Not only that but you do realize if you’re trying to scale everyone to the azure then what is the point of Amaterasu being unbeatable if apparently everyone is comparable to her? Especially with Izanami struggling to do a 5-A feat? This opens far more holes in the scaling than before because the entire plot is revolves around Amaterasu and Takamagahara being entities that the main cast isn’t able to stop easily.

 

[Comicgyal]

So you admit it’s a lie, meaning what Izanami is telling to everyone isn’t 100% true because she’s not giving them the real azure. Meaning your argument with Carl doesn’t line up whatsoever.

You’re just grasping for straws now. My argument for Carl, is that the azure fragments contain infinite possibilities which is what Izanami told him. That has 0 correlation to the lie terumi said Izanami was telling lol

you have not proven Nine is referring to the fragments at all, where the hell does it say the fragments and not just the entire azure? Because she keeps referring to the azure as the entire thing. Not only that but you do realize if you’re trying to scale everyone to the azure then what is the point of Amaterasu being unbeatable if apparently everyone is comparable to her? Especially with Izanami struggling to do a 5-A feat? This opens far more holes in the scaling than before because the entire plot is revolves around Amaterasu and Takamagahara being entities that the main cast isn’t able to stop easily.

She doesn’t have to say azure fragments, and she’s not referring to the entire azure. As Nine explains to us :

“One of the chosen that defeated Izanami and obtained the Azure. The azure takes the chosen’s wishes and materializes them in this world.”

If you’re trying to say that in this moment she was talking about the full azure, despite showing Hakumen worlds that were created by azure fragments, and also referencing the chosen defeating Izanami and obtaining those fragments, then you’re just ignoring the context.

Not only that but you do realize if you’re trying to scale everyone to the azure then what is the point of Amaterasu being unbeatable if apparently everyone is comparable to her? Especially with Izanami struggling to do a 5-A feat? This opens far more holes in the scaling than before because the entire plot is revolves around Amaterasu and Takamagahara being entities that the main cast isn’t able to stop easily.

This actually isn’t true. For one I’m scaling people to the fragments, which can’t do everything the full azure can. So they’re not scaling to the full azure, but instead the fragments, which I said.
Them not being able to stop Amaterasu easily =/= being able to stop it at all. Even Izanami says she can destroy Amaterasu, but they need to destroy it in a certain way or the world will just rebuild itself.

But again that’s a different discussion entirely. Boosting their physical attacks to the same level of their hax, doesn’t mean they can just solo Amaterasu. That logic actually makes no sense, since quite a few characters have 1-C hax already. Can they just stroll up and destroy Amaterasu?

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes it does because Izanami not telling him it’s a fragment of the azure that has all the possibilities shoots your argument in the foot that it scales to the entire multiverse.

yes she does, for an extraordinary buff like this you need extraordinary evidence, you can’t assume she’s talking about the fragments if she talking about the real azure itself. You have no evidence that the fragments is what she’s talking about so your not gonna make much progress without said evidence.

that still scales them to characters like Amaterasu and Takamagahara, the latter the characters couldn’t do shit without insane amount of prep. How exactly was Izanami trying to destroy Amaterasu again? Because she wasn’t trying to do it on her own. Ah yes, a few characters, not the entire roster. Not really helping your case given there’s important information on what gives them tier 1 hax to begin with.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes it does because Izanami not telling him it’s a fragment of the azure that has all the possibilities shoots your argument in the foot that it scales to the entire multiverse.

You’re wrong about that again, because you have yet to supply me with a single piece of evidence that points to Izanami, or Nine referring to the entire azure Im their conversations.

Izanami doesn’t have the full azure, why would she or nine be talking it at all? Carl was told that the azure holds infinite possibilities, and that he can make his world come true using it, then he was given a fragment to create his world. Nine told Hakumen that the Azure materializes the users wishes into this world. Are you blind, or just not following along?

Izanami: The chosen that defeats me shall be given the azure. Inside the azure resides all the possibilities of this universe.
Nine: The azure takes one of the chosen’s wishes and materializes it in this world.
IF they were talking about the full azure, plot wise this would make NO SENSE, and the act 2 of every arcade mode would also make NO SENSE.

ive provided all the evidence that I need, and spelled it out for you multiple times.

that still scales them to characters like Amaterasu and Takamagahara, the latter the characters couldn’t do shit without insane amount of prep. How exactly was Izanami trying to destroy Amaterasu again? Because she wasn’t trying to do it on her own. Ah yes, a few characters, not the entire roster. Not really helping your case given there’s important information on what gives them tier 1 hax to begin with.

It really doesn’t, especially since Terumi said that he needed the full azure to beat Amaterasu anyways. These fragments are strong, but not as capable as the original. Also, if I was the one who made the threads, more than just a few characters would have tier 1 hax snd durability. But hey

Anyways can you tag more staff? I’m unsure of whose wall to ping for a thread like this.

 

[Strife304]

in Blazblue dark war we’re also told this fragments can create embodiments of concepts, and collapse all possibilities into certainties. So despite it being just a fragment, it’s very notable.

Reminder, thanks to Dark War we know for a fact mere fragments of the Azure can create embodied concepts and so on. This seems to have been conveniently ignored among other things in favor of this "Izanami is lying" argument.

The dark war scan coincides with Nine's Act 2 where we are literally shown, by Nine herself, all of the other Act 2's where people take the fragment of the Azure and make their wishes come true:

“One of the chosen that defeated Izanami and obtained the Azure. The azure takes the chosen’s wishes and materializes them in this world.”

In addition to Bang's desire resulting in a replica of their world, as previously shared before:

The world created by each character is a real, tangible world, that contains copies of every character. (We see Kagura in Bang’s recreation)

Thanks to all of the above mentioned, whether she tells them it's a fragment or not holds no bearing on what these fragments are capable of.

 

[Comicgyal]

The bbdw description also says that the fragments can collapse possibilities into certainty. So that’s two character statements, and a lore statement that proves what we’re saying.

 

[CharlesZaGreat]

I'm neutral on this upgrade and have nothing to add to this conversation

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

Hold up you said Terumi stated he need full Azure to beat Amaterasu? If I correctly remember, Terumi kill Timeline Jin in the Susanoo by using a golden special for taking back his Original Susanoo Unit and absorb it Noel to enough beat to Amaterasu without the Azure (or with the Azure?), if I am wrong.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Comicgyal literally she says the azure. As in the true azure grimoire. Not the fragments, otherwise she would've specified she's saying any piece of the azure.

No it makes perfect sense, you're ignoring the entire point of Izanami's goals, why would she want people to get their wishes to be true when her entire goal is to cause Doomsday, the literal end of the entire multiverse? Helping people make their own worlds flies in the face of her entire plan, which is the end of everything. She brings them to her so she sets them after Noel, who's the one person preventing Doomsday from happening immediately. I've also spelled out to you Izanami's entire plans, you're not paying any attention and are assuming shit about her goals when that's never been her intent.

Yes it does, saying they have tier 1 hax isn't helping your case at all when you keep ignoring context, stop ignoring context and pay attention for once.

@Qawsedf234 @Everything12 @Elizhaa @Abstractions @CrimsonStarFallen

 

[Comicgyal]

@Comicgyal literally she says the azure. As in the true azure grimoire. Not the fragments, otherwise she would've specified she's saying any piece of the azure.

That’s you trying to insert a headcanon into what’s actually shown. No character, aside from Terumi (who makes specific note that he wants the azure) ever refers to the azure she gives to the chosen as an Azure fragment. In every case it’s called the Azure, so no, she wouldn’t have specified. Because for what she wanted to accomplish, specifications do not matter.

No it makes perfect sense, you're ignoring the entire point of Izanami's goals, why would she want people to get their wishes to be true when her entire goal is to cause Doomsday, the literal end of the entire multiverse? Helping people make their own worlds flies in the face of her entire plan, which is the end of everything. She brings them to her so she sets them after Noel, who's the one person preventing Doomsday from happening immediately. I've also spelled out to you Izanami's entire plans, you're not paying any attention and are assuming shit about her goals when that's never been her intent.

Maybe you should go through the game again, because if she just wants doomsday why does she invite any of the characters to visit her at all? What she wants is for them to get rid of Noel vermillion. She taunts them with a world where they can get everything they want, and force them to realize they can’t achieve that because Noel exists. Did you miss that part, or are you willfully ignoring things again?

Anyways,

Reminder, thanks to Dark War we know for a fact mere fragments of the Azure can create embodied concepts and so on. This seems to have been conveniently ignored among other things in favor of this "Izanami is lying" argument.

The dark war scan coincides with Nine's Act 2 where we are literally shown, by Nine herself, all of the other Act 2's where people take the fragment of the Azure and make their wishes come true:

In addition to Bang's desire resulting in a replica of their world, as previously shared before:


Thanks to all of the above mentioned, whether she tells them it's a fragment or not holds no bearing on what these fragments are capable of.

The bbdw description also says that the fragments can collapse possibilities into certainty. So that’s two character statements, and a lore statement that proves what we’re saying.

You have to acknowledge these as well, because according to BBDW the fragments contain possibilities! You know who else said that? Izanami, and Nine.

 

[Lynieryz]

Agree fra.

 

[Comicgyal]

Another piece of evidence I got from a friend dismantles a majority of your argument.

Here Rachel goes into detail about the Azure, while holding a fragment of it. Rachel comments on all the possibilities this fragment can create, but says that a fragment won’t be enough to bring her father back.

So we have a statement of someone while holding an azure fragment noting all the possibilities it holds.

She then proceeds to say that even if she had the TRUE AZURE, she still would be unable to change anything, because Noel vermillion’s will is stronger than all of them.

Not only is that an amazing willpower feat for Noel, but your statement of “If we scale everyone to the azure, they would be able to beat Amaterasu easily” is literally untrue.

Now there’s 4 in game statements that completely destroy your claims.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am not that familiar with the verse but Glassman's points seem stronger to me. Most of the Azure statements used "the Azure" which makes the scaling of "an Azure" seem weaker.

Here Rachel goes into detail about the Azure, while holding a fragment of it. Rachel comments on all the possibilities this fragment can create, but says that a fragment won’t be enough to bring her father back.

It seems to support the notion that a fragment is not that relevant and someone will stop the wishes like Glassman said, though.

 

[Everything12]

Agree with Theglassman, based off what they have said here and my own casual knowledge of the series.

 

[Strife304]

In none of the provided scans does Izanami or Nine refer to the "true Azure".. but for the sake of argument, let's say it does!

It seems to support the notion that a fragment is not that relevant and someone will stop the wishes like Glassman said, though.

Noel prevents these wishes from being the governing wish that shapes the embryo, because they all still lead to Doomsday. Glassman would be correct about that. But none of that eliminates them from being among the infinite possibilities that exist within the world...

These worlds hold all possibilities of their universe, which as we know are infinite.

As this thread progressed we know for certain thanks to Nine's Act 2, Rachel's Act 2, Bang's Act 2, Carl's Act 2, and Darkwar's lore entry on what Azure Fragments can accomplish:

Here Rachel goes into detail about the Azure, while holding a fragment of it.

in Blazblue dark war we’re also told this fragments can create embodiments of concepts, and collapse all possibilities into certainties. So despite it being just a fragment, it’s very notable.

Nine: The azure takes one of the chosen’s wishes and materializes it in this world.

We are visibly shown the wishes coming true, not just briefly, but still existing as possibilities. While they cannot change the world with a fragment, they also wouldnt be able to with the true azure, there is narrative reasons for that and has to do with certain qualifications.

This makes the argument that she's describing the "true azure" a strange leap after considering all of this information, and it messes with the flow of the narrative. Nine verifies the worth of the chosen's desire, they're sent to Izanami who then gives them a piece of the azure, which then grant's their wish no matter how trivial, by her words.

@Comicgyal literally she says the azure. As in the true azure grimoire. Not the fragments, otherwise she would've specified she's saying any piece of the azure.

Again, she is not, nor ever has been, describing or alluding to the true azure. If she so much as hinted at there being a more definitive version of what she was giving out, then that would invalidate her goal by having people just pursue the True Azure instead.

Whether she says its "any piece of the Azure" or "the Azure" literally does not matter with the provided context, this just seems like a word game in place of actual evidence that debunks what has been repeatedly shown in the scans. We are shown in most of, if not all of the Act 2 arcade routes that there is a small, blue blurb in someone's hand being labeled as "the Azure".

By what you're arguing we would suddenly have to believe Izanami is now dealing out the true azure like candy, which is absurd. She has no reason to discuss it because it would contradict her plans for doomsday. Above all else, even if you were somehow right about her describing the true azure, that does not discredit the Azure fragment feats that is substantiated by Izanami herself, and all the aforementioned characters who are included in the scans.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Comicgyal What are you trying to argue here? The azure fragment that Terumi has is no different than what everyone else gets, and he knows as much, if not more about the azure than Izanami. Him being right that it's not the azure that Izanami claimed it is means it's not at all what she made it out to be. And yes specification DO matter here, because there's a massive difference between the full azure, and a small fragment.

You do realize she brings them to her so she can convince them to do her bidding right? Her claiming that their worlds will come true with visual evidence from their visions is all she needs to set them after Noel, which works since so many characters try to kill her because of it, instead of telling me to replay the game, how about you pay attention, because you're not doing this for the nth time.

The statement does not mention all possibilities of the universe, just that it can make possibilities into certainties, which given the context in CF's arcade mode, is at best Low 2-C.

The true azure not helping her because of Noel doesn't mean jack shit here because Noel's the successor of the azure, she has access to the full azure within her so why is this relevant in this discussion?

@Strife304 again, this at best is Low 2-C, nothing about the fragments is ever hinted at to contain all possibilities of the universe. Yes, she literally lies to the entire cast that she's giving away the true azure, the most powerful item in the series that would grant anyone's wishes. Her lying to everyone so she can get them to her and make them go after Noel makes complete sense with her goals since she's never been intent on making more worlds, just destroying them all.

 

[Comicgyal]

@Comicgyal What are you trying to argue here? The azure fragment that Terumi has is no different than what everyone else gets, and he knows as much, if not more about the azure than Izanami. Him being right that it's not the azure that Izanami claimed it is means it's not at all what she made it out to be. And yes specification DO matter here, because there's a massive difference between the full azure, and a small fragment.

You do realize she brings them to her so she can convince them to do her bidding right? Her claiming that their worlds will come true with visual evidence from their visions is all she needs to set them after Noel, which works since so many characters try to kill her because of it, instead of telling me to replay the game, how about you pay attention, because you're not doing this for the nth time.

The statement does not mention all possibilities of the universe, just that it can make possibilities into certainties, which given the context in CF's arcade mode, is at best Low 2-C.

The true azure not helping her because of Noel doesn't mean jack shit here because Noel's the successor of the azure, she has access to the full azure within her so why is this relevant in this discussion?

Reply to specific comments and not just make paragraphs, I have no idea what you’re refer first since I’ve sent you three different comments already.

The specification does not matter, because the only time where there’s talk about the difference between a fragment and the full azure, it’s not in the way you’re trying to make it out to be.

Izanami says that the azure holds all the possibilities of their universe in reference to Carl, the entire time they talk it’s referred to as “The azure” infact, everytime Izanami talks to a candidate she just refers to her fragment as the azure. Nine refers to the fragments as the azure, the only time someone makes a distinction is when Terumi says a fragment isn’t enough for him, and that he wants the full azure.

That doesn’t disprove what I’m arguing here.

The entire argument is that Izanami and Nine, and BBDW all mention the infinite possibilities that the azure can grant, Nine even shows us all the infinite possibilities that the chosen create with their fragments. Terumi saying he wants the full azure literally means Jack-shit, he’s never come in contact with the full azure ANYWAYS

The true azure not helping her because of Noel doesn't mean jack shit here because Noel's the successor of the azure, she has access to the full azure within her so why is this relevant in this discussion?

This is relevant because you decided to make the statement:

This opens far more holes in the scaling than before because the entire plot is revolves around Amaterasu and Takamagahara being entities that the main cast isn’t able to stop easily.

That the cast would scale to the strongest entities in their verse, and Rachel literally says otherwise. Don’t try and act like it isn’t conversation relevant because I disapproved your claim.

@Strife304 again, this at best is Low 2-C, nothing about the fragments is ever hinted at to contain all possibilities of the universe. Yes, she literally lies to the entire cast that she's giving away the true azure, the most powerful item in the series that would grant anyone's wishes. Her lying to everyone so she can get them to her and make them go after Noel makes complete sense with her goals since she's never been intent on making more worlds, just destroying them all.

This again is just your headcanon, Izanami never promises them the full azure, you keep saying she does because Terumi said that he thought she had the full azure. You see the important part here? Terumi assumed that she was giving out the full azure, but she isn’t. His false assumption doesn’t disprove any of what Izanami said about the fragments, and it holding the infinite possibilities of their world.

As we keep trying to tell you, story wise the narrative you’re trying to push makes no sense. Izanami wouldn’t lie to the candidates about her having the full azure, and then give them a fragment. What would she gain from that? Most characters have never seen the azure, or even so much as a fragment of it. So you trying to say that Izanami is trying to deceive them doesn’t make sense, because they don’t know anything about the azure in the first place.

But the people that do know, like Nine, Rachel, Relius, etc, also refer to the fragments of the azure as the azure.

This scan from relius disproves what you’re trying to say,

I am not that familiar with the verse but Glassman's points seem stronger to me. Most of the Azure statements used "the Azure" which makes the scaling of "an Azure" seem weaker.

Relius refers to an azure fragment as The Azure, not An Azure, or A fragment.

 

[Theglassman12]

Nine doesn't refer to the fragments as the azure, she references the azure itself doing this, And it's shown the fragments can barely even sustain one world on its own. Yes it does disprove what you're arguing here, because nothing in the entire context of the arcade modes do they ever refer to the azure's fragments as being capable of doing this, it's shown the exact opposite where they're barely able to sustain a world for long. Again if you're going to just ignore the main issue with your upgrade, then I'm sorry to say but this isn't going anywhere.

You didn't disapproved shit since you kept saying they'd just tackle amaterasu and just ignore context.

No it's not headcanon, at this point you're lying or just ignoring what I'm saying. Terumi calling out her bullshit, and her not remotely justifying her case means she's lying. Give me evidence that Izanami said she never clarified on what she was planning on giving the crew. Because every time she meets them she always says she's giving them the true azure, something even Jin believed.

That scan doesn't disprove shit, it's literally him asking if this really is the azure, because it's not, just a fragment. Him being disappointed in it just shows he's aware that it's a lie, and is more interested in Amaterasu who has access to the full azure's power. The fact he's interested in something that has a closer tie to the azure (AKA something that has the full power in the first place) doesn't really help your case on scaling the full azure to the fragment.

 

[Comicgyal]

Nine doesn't refer to the fragments as the azure, she references the azure itself doing this, And it's shown the fragments can barely even sustain one world on its own. Yes it does disprove what you're arguing here, because nothing in the entire context of the arcade modes do they ever refer to the azure's fragments as being capable of doing this, it's shown the exact opposite where they're barely able to sustain a world for long. Again if you're going to just ignore the main issue with your upgrade, then I'm sorry to say but this isn't going anywhere.

I’m convinced you have some agenda that you’re trying to push, because you’re blatantly ignoring the circumstances in the arcade modes. The worlds aren’t sustained because Noel keeps destroying them, that has nothing to do with their capabilities. Stop ignoring basic gameplay, to try and make a convincing argument. Everything you just said is literally contradicted by every single arcade mode, even Nine says that the worlds will rebuild themselves endlessly. So they have the capabilities.

You didn't disapproved shit since you kept saying they'd just tackle amaterasu and just ignore context.

What does this even mean lol

No it's not headcanon, at this point you're lying or just ignoring what I'm saying. Terumi calling out her bullshit, and her not remotely justifying her case means she's lying. Give me evidence that Izanami said she never clarified on what she was planning on giving the crew. Because every time she meets them she always says she's giving them the true azure, something even Jin believed.

That scan doesn't disprove shit, it's literally him asking if this really is the azure, because it's not, just a fragment. Him being disappointed in it just shows he's aware that it's a lie, and is more interested in Amaterasu who has access to the full azure's power. The fact he's interested in something that has a closer tie to the azure (AKA something that has the full power in the first place) doesn't really help your case on scaling the full azure to the fragment.

You’re just making things up. Relius knows what the azure is, and he knows what a fragment of the azure is. He literally says that it’s disappointing, not because it’s a fragment, but he’s not interested in the azure at all. So that makes no sense. Amaterasu doesn’t have access to the full azure either, they don’t even exist in the same plane, so what are you talking about? It’s getting clearer that you aren’t as knowledgeable in every aspect.

 

[Strife304]

Nine doesn't refer to the fragments as the azure, she references the azure itself doing this, And it's shown the fragments can barely even sustain one world on its own. Yes it does disprove what you're arguing here, because nothing in the entire context of the arcade modes do they ever refer to the azure's fragments as being capable of doing this, it's shown the exact opposite where they're barely able to sustain a world for long. Again if you're going to just ignore the main issue with your upgrade, then I'm sorry to say but this isn't going anyanywhere

Even if Nine wasn't calling the fragments "the Azure" she is still thought to be working with Izanami, this is the impression Hakumen arrives at in his Act 1. Which would then mean, by narrative context, she is in fact alluding to the fragments that Izanami is handing out, because her trial for the chosen's desires lead to Izanami's test of earning the azure. Again, she shows us the resulting wishes from those fragments, which would then mean she's directly referring to the "azure fragment" at the conclusion of every Act 2.

@Strife304 again, this at best is Low 2-C, nothing about the fragments is ever hinted at to contain all possibilities of the universe. Yes, she literally lies to the entire cast that she's giving away the true azure, the most powerful item in the series that would grant anyone's wishes. Her lying to everyone so she can get them to her and make them go after Noel makes complete sense with her goals since she's never been intent on making more worlds, just destroying them all.

Making more worlds then completely destroying them quite literally is what her idea of Doomsday is... in fact, she even states this in the beginning of Central Fiction when speaking to Noel and Rachel.

To annihilate all possibilities completely with no hope of recovery, this is also where we find out that she can kill Amaterasu many different ways easily but elects for this ultimate end, saying she needs the embryo for all of this.

Now, where with all the talk of narratives and sifnificant context, this scan leads me full circle and also proves that this is far more than a low 2-C feat at best. Izanami's very plan hinges on the fact that this cannot be a low 2-C feat at best.

We are visibly shown the wishes coming true, not just briefly, but still existing as possibilities. While they cannot change the world with a fragment, they also wouldnt be able to with the true azure, there is narrative reasons for that and has to do with certain qualifications.

This makes the argument that she's describing the "true azure" a strange leap after considering all of this information, and it messes with the flow of the narrative. Nine verifies the worth of the chosen's desire, they're sent to Izanami who then gives them a piece of the azure, which then grant's their wish no matter how trivial, by her words.

These wishes are still possibilities that exist within their world, which at that time is the embryo, and we see that they still exist despite being overwritten by Noel when Nine shows them to Hakumen in her Act 2:

Izanami: The chosen that defeats me shall be given the azure. Inside the azure resides all the possibilities of this universe.
Nine: The azure takes one of the chosen’s wishes and materializes it in this world.

These infinite possibilities would all have Cauldrons, which means they are all connected to the boundary, which is connected to all dimensions, etc.

This directly circles back to the starting arguments of the OP, and hopefully what has been further elaborated helps the misunderstandings, as it is substantiated by what the azure fragments do, and their grander purpose in the Embryo, which is Izanami's goal to bring about total death to all possibilities, a.k.a "Doomsday".

Because the worlds created have infinite possibilities, and is also layered onto their actual world, it’s not a simple “universe” but each world is a replica of the main cosmology. At the weakest it’s a 2-A cosmology, due to holding the infinite possibilities of every character. Once you take into account that all the possibilities of the main world + the general cosmology is included (A boundary, which transcends space and time) it becomes low 1-C.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Comicgyal Yeah, Noel's world will rebuild itself cause she keeps observing it, for someone who claims I have an agenda you sure like to ignore context from your own scan to justify your own arguments. So you're not going to address my point with Izanami's entire goal? Great, good to know that you basically choose to not address one of the most important part of my arguments, which is Izanami's entire plan to begin with.

No Amaterasu has the full power of the azure, that's what happened to both her and Noel when they got their status, the fact you claim otherwise is baffling to me given the lore.

@Strife304 what does believing she works with Izanami have to do with anything? And again, nothing about the fragments mention they create ALL the possibilities, only whatever the chosen has.

Did you read the scans at all or are you just trolling me right now? She literally says she wants complete death on the world. She even says that in the story mode. Saying she wants more worlds again flies in the face of her entire goal.

What part of the cauldrons has anything to do with this upgrade? Did anyone go into the cauldrons that were in the azure fragments or dreams at all? Because none of that ever happened in the arcade mode, let alone story mode. Idk how the hell you're claiming the boundary scales to the azure fragments when none of the scans back that up.