Black Hole Reaches Infinity (BFDI)

[James_Plays_4_Games]

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The information is from ''BFDI:TPOT 10: Oneirophobe's Nightmare''. The episode's challenge involved Two putting one member of each team to sleep, giving those characters nightmares, and putting the rest of the characters inside of their sleeping teammates' nightmares to save them and escape the nightmare. Concerning the upgrade, Black Hole's nightmare and the experience Death PACT Again had is relevant. Black Hole's nightmare was for the challenge of an episode to be to kill everything. In his nightmare, he went along with it, absorbing everything. Black Hole ended up having absorbed so much that he was growing past stars at MFTL+ speed, and eventually, outer space itself disappeared, leaving absolutely nothing but a blank void remaining. It appears that Black Hole absorbed the whole universe in his nightmare.

Even though it only happened in Black Hole's nightmare, it's meant to be what he believes would really happen if he would betray the PACT. Black Hole knows how his own capabilities work, and he thinks that if he were to quit his "death prevention and creating trust" pacifism, his absorption and growth would lead to the end of the universe, which is why he is the most firmly pacifistic in the BFDI series main cast of characters.

Cary Huang, one of the creators of the series, imagines that the universe in BFDI is infinite in size, during his reaction video to TPOT 1, when describing how Nonexisty could technically take up infinite space. Thus, if Black Hole's potential to absorb the universe is taken seriously by the VS Battles Wiki, then Black Hole could potentially reach up to tier High 3-A, which is High Universe level and infinite 3D power, as well as up to infinite speed by technicality. I write "reach up to" because, of course, Black Hole had to go through a long process to gradually achieve infinity in his nightmare. As demonstrated in the episode, he had to first decide to stop restraining himself, then he had to absorb enough to start growing on a celestial scale, then he had to grow for long enough to evolve from gradually absorbing celestial bodies to instantly causing the universe to turn into a blank void.

Important connections: Two should be considered as being potentially capable of what Black Hole could do "via the power of Two" / "via reality warping", since that power is considered as a valuable prize to all the contestants and it's portrayed as one of the strongest things in the series. Cary described Four as "omnipotent" during his reaction video to BFB 4, referring to Four's versatile ability to warp reality, so Four should also be considered as having Black Hole's peak stats via reality warping.

Do keep in mind that the previous paragraph's descriptions don't indicate that Two and Four have ever actually utilized these stats, and if they have, it's the potency of their reality warping, not their physical strength. It would be paradoxical for Four and Two to have ever used this level of power against the other characters in a way that would imply those characters scale to the level of power, because it would contradict Black Hole having to go through a long process to achieve his peak stats and it would contradict the narrative of Black Hole restraining himself on a regular basis. Black Hole at his strongest being able to absorb the universe also means soloing the whole cast of characters. Two can use physical statistics amplification via their limitless power, but when that was demonstrated, it was in a casual carnival game scenario, not a serious moment that would imply Two was going all-out, so this isn't evidence of scaling either.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I was going to plan this upgrade, but personal life problems and other stuff I had to handle got in the way. That being said, I agree with the addition of High 3-A and Infinite speed for Black Hole's maximum size. However, I believe both of those ratings should also scale to his shrunken form through downscaling, which I will explain through copy+pasting my planned draft for the CRT I would've made:

~~~~~

I once made a CRT last year attempting to upgrade the cast to High 3-A until I realized how utterly ridiculous it was to the point I regretted it. But thanks to TPOT 10, we actually have a statement from Black Hole in which he states that if he were to betray Death P.A.C.T. Again, there would be "absolutely nothing" left. This is symbolized through him destroying the universe to the point of leaving a white void behind after he's done destroying everything, and given the fact that he often holds back whenever he's facing someone in trying not to kill them over the fact he is a pacifist, he has no reason to lie about his full power. And given how he would leave absolutely nothing left, for reference on how large the BFDI universe is, it is pretty much stated by word of god to be infinite in size. This means that in order for Black Hole to destroy the universe to leave nothing left, he'd literally need to be going at Infinite speeds to reach every bit of the infinite universe to destroy it, which in turn also makes him High 3-A himself even if he did it in a finite time due to the nature of how infinity divided by something finite is still infinity.

"But Psycho, this was all just a dream which meant that none of this happened! That's the whole point of the challenge in the episode!"

True, this was all just Black Hole's dream for the sake of the challenge. However, the fact he states this, gives a visual representation of what he's capable of doing at full power, and even remembers exactly what he said in the dream after waking up, this is something he can in fact do in reality if he chose to do so. If anything, his dream is simply showing a visual scenario if he were to betray the PACT and go all out in killing everyone to the point of leaving absolutely nothing left.

"Alright, but wasn't Black Hole growing bigger as he was consuming matter while destroying the universe in his dream? Wouldn't that infinite stuff only scale to this large form for him in that case?"

Well, arguably not. Based on what we see in his dream, when Black Hole was done destroying the universe, he was very much still at a finite size, especially with how he seemingly stops growing any larger after sucking up Tree and is really only moving closer to the rocket. Nothing suggests if he has a limit or not to his size growth if he were to actually do this, especially for a fake black hole like him (Reasons for why he's a fake black hole are listed on his profile). That being said, if he remained at a finite size after he would theoretically destroy the infinite universe in reality assuming what happens in the dream is 1:1, a shrunken contestant-sized version of him would definitely be weaker and slower, but not leave infinity due to the nature of how infinity divided by finity is still infinity. Of course, because we don't really know if he will actually become infinite in size or stay at a finite size by the time he's done destroying the universe in reality, the best I can propose is a new key formatted like this:

Tier: At least 4-A, possibly High 3-A | At least 4-A, possibly High 3-A | High 3-A

Key: Original Size | Shrunken | Maximum Size

Attack Potency: At least Multi-Solar System level (Generated this amount of energy by sheer movement. Comparable to other contestants capable of one-shotting bugs. Should have the same power as his shrunken form), possibly High Universe level (If Black Hole's maximum size remained finite in size by the time he would be done destroying the universe just like his dream, it's possible that his smaller states below his maximum size would backscale through still being able to retain the infinite speed in order to destroy the universe) | At least Multi-Solar System level (Despite the potency of his abilities being weaker due to his size being shrunken down, he should not be too far behind his large form in terms of strength. Is still considered a danger to the Earth due to him keeping his mass of 20 suns, and is the strongest contestant by far. Accidentally one-shot Pen. Was one of the many characters capable of one-shotting Four's Jawbreakers, which were durable enough for Gelatin to end up killing himself from bashing his head too many times onto a Jawbreaker with no success), possibly High Universe level (See previous key) | High Universe level (If Black Hole were to not hold back, he would start sucking everything up while continuously growing in size to the point where he himself states that there would be "absolutely nothing" left, which is represented as a white void where the outer space used to be in his dream, insinuating that he would destroy the universe which is stated by word of god to be infinite in size)

Speed: Massively FTL+ (Should be no slower in speed when he was shrunken), possibly Infinite (Backscaling from his maximum-sized form, assuming he would remain at a finite size by the time he would be done destroying the universe in reality just like his dream) | Massively FTL+ (Comparable to Donut, who can react to a Gamma Ray Burst that travelled 600 million light years in less than a second), possibly Infinite (Backscaling from his maximum-sized form, assuming he would remain at a finite size by the time he would be done destroying the universe in reality just like his dream) | Infinite (If Black Hole were to not hold back, he would start sucking everything up while continuously growing in size to the point where he himself states that there would be "absolutely nothing" left, which is represented as a white void where the outer space used to be in his dream, insinuating that he would destroy the universe which is stated by word of god to be infinite in size)

In addition, a note should be added:

Note: The reason for the existence of a maximum size key is due to how Black Hole is able to grow in size whenever he absorbs things into his event horizon akin to actual black holes, with his dream showing him destroying everything around him to the point of leaving "absolutely nothing" left. As such, this key is a theoretical key if Black Hole were to achieve his maximum size in reality through destroying the universe, although it's unknown if he would reach an infinite size or remain at a finite size just like his dream, especially due to his nature as being a fake black hole.

"Why would you dare scale anyone to Black Hole when it has been made clear that he's the most powerful contestant?"

Here's the thing: nobody (physically) scales to Black Hole's High 3-A rating since nobody has been shown to be comparable to him not holding back, at least for now. One could argue that Two upscales from him due to how Black Hole was interested in competing for their powers, but just because he was interested doesn't mean Two is necessarily stronger. He could've just been interested in their hax rather than their sheer power.

The same, however, can't be said for speed luckily, as Fanny and Tree very clearly run away from a bloodlusted Black Hole. And sure, this is a dream variant of him they are running away from, but nothing indicates he is any weaker than the Black Hole in the real world.

TL;DR Black Hole gets upgraded to "possibly High 3-A" for both of his existing keys (Which only scales to him), a new key for him that solidly makes him High 3-A, and everyone is upgraded to "possibly Infinite" speed (While Black Hole's maximum size key is solidly Infinite in speed).

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

I agree with the Black Hole scaling, it is pretty explicit, after all

I ain´t sure on the scaling to Two tbh, did he knew about the power that Black Hole can achieve at his peak?

About Four: If the statement is just about versatility then it shouldn´t scale to his "destructive" capabilities through Reality Warping

I´m a bit iffy on the main cast getting Infinite Speed, not really knowledgeble on BFDI, but this seems outlierish at a glance

 

[Psychomaster35]

I ain´t sure on the scaling to Two tbh, did he knew about the power that Black Hole can achieve at his peak?

Black Hole has been holding back for a majority of the series, and IIRC he's never demonstrated his full power to Two nor has he told them about it, so Two doesn't physically scale to him.

About Four: If the statement is just about versatility then it shouldn´t scale to his "destructive" capabilities through Reality Warping

Four has been known to be superior to most, if not all of the contestants in strength and hax which is backed up in TPOT 6 where Robot Flower said that Four was "catastrophically powerful", even being further proven by the fact that he stomps a majority of the remaining TPOT contestants through hax alongside X.

I´m a bit iffy on the main cast getting Infinite Speed, not really knowledgeble on BFDI, but this seems outlierish at a glance

Contestants have always been shown to be keeping up with each other, so they should be able to scale to Black Hole's downscaled infinite speed while Black Hole at a larger size is simply higher in infinity.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I was going to plan this upgrade, but personal life problems and other stuff I had to handle got in the way. That being said, I agree with the addition of High 3-A and Infinite speed for Black Hole's maximum size. However, I believe both of those ratings should also scale to his shrunken form through downscaling, which I will explain through copy+pasting my planned draft for the CRT I would've made:

It's a good thing your work isn't entirely going to waste.

"Alright, but wasn't Black Hole growing bigger as he was consuming matter while destroying the universe in his dream? Wouldn't that infinite stuff only scale to this large form for him in that case?"

Well, arguably not. Based on what we see in his dream, when Black Hole was done destroying the universe, he was very much still at a finite size, especially with how he seemingly stops growing any larger after sucking up Tree and is really only moving closer to the rocket. Nothing suggests if he has a limit or not to his size growth if he were to actually do this, especially for a fake black hole like him (Reasons for why he's a fake black hole are listed on his profile). That being said, if he remained at a finite size after he would theoretically destroy the infinite universe in reality assuming what happens in the dream is 1:1, a shrunken contestant-sized version of him would definitely be weaker and slower, but not leave infinity due to the nature of how infinity divided by finity is still infinity. Of course, because we don't really know if he will actually become infinite in size or stay at a finite size by the time he's done destroying the universe in reality, the best I can propose is a new key formatted like this: […]

Black Hole in his nightmare still having been visible at a finite size on-screen even after destroying the infinite universe by absorbing it was probably not supposed to be taken literally to imply that his less dramatized contestant size is anywhere near his maximum level. Black Hole growing much larger than the rocket ship ending with Black Hole suddenly being smaller than the rocket ship after achieving infinity was self-contradictory and was most likely only a quirk of his nightmare that allowed him to talk with Fanny about the underlying social conflict that caused the nightmare.

Also, after having absorbed Tree, Black Hole was still pulling stars in until the outer space itself suddenly disappeared. I saw Black Hole moving a bit closer to the rocket ship too, but the absorption of outer space was the threat to the universe and is the main focus of this upgrade thread.

In addition, a note should be added:

Note: The reason for the existence of a maximum size key is due to how Black Hole is able to grow in size whenever he absorbs things into his event horizon akin to actual black holes, with his dream showing him destroying everything around him to the point of leaving "absolutely nothing" left. As such, this key is a theoretical key if Black Hole were to achieve his maximum size in reality through destroying the universe, although it's unknown if he would reach an infinite size or remain at a finite size just like his dream, especially due to his nature as being a fake black hole.

I agree with adding a clarification note like this.

"Why would you dare scale anyone to Black Hole when it has been made clear that he's the most powerful contestant?"

[…]

The same, however, can't be said for speed luckily, as Fanny and Tree very clearly run away from a bloodlusted Black Hole. And sure, this is a dream variant of him they are running away from, but nothing indicates he is any weaker than the Black Hole in the real world.

Black Hole's travel speed isn't the same as the speed of his growth from absorption, which achieved the infinite speed feat only after transcending the speed of gradually absorbing stars.

I ain´t sure on the scaling to Two tbh, did he knew about the power that Black Hole can achieve at his peak?

About Four: If the statement is just about versatility then it shouldn´t scale to his "destructive" capabilities through Reality Warping

I'm only scaling the reality warping of Two and Four to Black Hole's peak because those two influences are portrayed as the strongest ones in the fiction, aside from forces like budget cuts that are irrelevant to this discussion.

Two is able to create timers out of environment exactly like Four can, Two is a magic host in practically the same way Four is, and those aspects about Four were what prompted Cary to describe Four as "omnipotent," so I believe Two and Four have similar reality warping capabilities and the circumstances really only depend on the meaning of the statement about Four. Even though the statement was referring to versatility, the word "omnipotent" includes the implication of having almighty power, thus scaling above what doesn't have almighty power within the setting, which includes Black Hole's peak in this case. The statement referring to Four's versatile ability to do things like turn a cloud into a functional timer is the reason it's acknowledged as being reality warping while excluding physicality, aside from how it would probably be a hyperbole if it were including physicality due to Four sometimes being portrayed as having physical limits. The word "omnipotent" means "having unlimited power and being able to do anything."

 

[Psychomaster35]

Black Hole in his nightmare still having been visible at a finite size on-screen even after destroying the infinite universe by absorbing it was probably not supposed to be taken literally to imply that his less dramatized contestant size is anywhere near his maximum level. Black Hole growing much larger than the rocket ship ending with Black Hole suddenly being smaller than the rocket ship after achieving infinity was self-contradictory and was most likely only a quirk of his nightmare that allowed him to talk with Fanny about the underlying social conflict that caused the nightmare.

Also, after having absorbed Tree, Black Hole was still pulling stars in until the outer space itself suddenly disappeared. I saw Black Hole moving a bit closer to the rocket ship too, but the absorption of outer space was the threat to the universe and is the main focus of this upgrade thread.

I never said that what happens in Black Hole's dream will be 1:1 with what will actually happen if he did this in reality, I said that this may be a possibility that it could be 1:1, given that we don't know what would happen if he replicated this in reality (If he will stay at a finite size or become infinite in size) as he refuses to do it due to his pacifism. Hence the idea of keeping it as a "possibly" due to it being unclear of what would actually happen. Also, Black Hole unexpectedly being smaller than usual is just the result of perspectives to make characters feel either larger or smaller.

Those stars are all the way in the background far out of Black Hole's reach, and just earlier Black Hole was only seen around a few times larger than Mercury when Fanny and Tree passed by it moments before a hole formed in the rocket and Tree gets pulled into Black Hole's event horizon. If his suction really had infinite speed then Fanny would've been sucked up since everything else around her got sucked up, but she didn't get sucked up. Black Hole still had to utilize travel speed to chase after Fanny's rocket while his gravitational pull was destroying everything.

Black Hole's travel speed isn't the same as the speed of his growth from absorption, which achieved the infinite speed feat only after transcending the speed of gradually absorbing stars.

See 2nd paragraph.

 

[Board3659]

I agree FRA. Good job

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I never said that what happens in Black Hole's dream will be 1:1 with what will actually happen if he did this in reality, I said that this may be a possibility that it could be 1:1, given that we don't know what would happen if he replicated this in reality (If he will stay at a finite size or become infinite in size) as he refuses to do it due to his pacifism. Hence the idea of keeping it as a "possibly" due to it being unclear of what would actually happen.

I know what you mean. I disagree due to the possibility being too unlikely. I'm not convinced that Black Hole would really appear the way he did in his nightmare if he were to really absorb the universe, and I instead believe he appeared that way specifically because his nightmare allowed a social confrontation between him and Fanny, as I told you already.

Also, Black Hole unexpectedly being smaller than usual is just the result of perspectives to make characters feel either larger or smaller.

That would mean, in the perspective where the screen was zoomed out, Black Hole was light-years away on the Z-axis, yet at 22:59, the screen was behind Fanny looking over her left side to show Black Hole in front of her, meaning Black Hole wasn't far away on the Z-axis, because if he were, then he would've been light-years to the right of Fanny in that timestamped shot.

Those stars are all the way in the background far out of Black Hole's reach, and just earlier Black Hole was only seen around a few times larger than Mercury when Fanny and Tree passed by it moments before a hole formed in the rocket and Tree gets pulled into Black Hole's event horizon. If his suction really had infinite speed then Fanny would've been sucked up since everything else around her got sucked up, but she didn't get sucked up. Black Hole still had to utilize travel speed to chase after Fanny's rocket while his gravitational pull was destroying everything.

See 2nd paragraph.

Even if we ignore the stars... Black Hole was moving in a way for the solar system to have been absorbed by him before he reached the stage where there was "about to be nothing left [of the universe]," which was distinct from when he instantly turned the infinite universe into a blank void, so Black Hole absorbing and moving on-screen couldn't have just been an inaccurate cinematic time depiction of infinite speed. The process of reaching the stage of "about to be nothing left" had chronology, (first the solar system was absorbed, then Tree got broken out of the rocket ship, then the whole universe was almost entirely absorbed,) and the process leading up to it was distinct from the moment it instantly occurred.

The aforementioned is consistent with how BFDIA: Well Rested depicts the movement of characters as distinctly non-instantaneous, as clarified by Tennis Ball explaining why Evil Leafy couldn't activate a motion sensor due to her instantaneous movement. I'm also sure there are many examples throughout the series where characters move with effort while there's proof that time passes, due to how many occasions there are where challenges are under a time limit or the characters move while daytime and nighttime cycles progress. The idea that the whole cast has infinite speed isn't even a possibility when understanding the implications of that being the case.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Agreed.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Black Hole has been holding back for a majority of the series, and IIRC he's never demonstrated his full power to Two nor has he told them about it, so Two doesn't physically scale to him.

Not physically and not even through Reality Warping following this logic

Four has been known to be superior to most, if not all of the contestants in strength and hax which is backed up in TPOT 6 where Robot Flower said that Four was "catastrophically powerful", even being further proven by the fact that he stomps a majority of the remaining TPOT contestants through hax alongside X.

The same situation that applied to Two also applies to him tbh, how do we know that his superiority in relation to the other contestants also applies to Maximum Size Black Hole?

Contestants have always been shown to be keeping up with each other, so they should be able to scale to Black Hole's downscaled infinite speed while Black Hole at a larger size is simply higher in infinity.

Black Hole doesn´t "physically" moves at Infinite Speeds in the video, he just absorbs what is aroung him and then procceds to get bigger, so i don´t see why this would physically scale to other contestants

I'm only scaling the reality warping of Two and Four to Black Hole's peak because those two influences are portrayed as the strongest ones in the fiction, aside from forces like budget cuts that are irrelevant to this discussion.

Two is able to create timers out of environment exactly like Four can, Two is a magic host in practically the same way Four is, and those aspects about Four were what prompted Cary to describe Four as "omnipotent," so I believe Two and Four have similar reality warping capabilities and the circumstances really only depend on the meaning of the statement about Four. Even though the statement was referring to versatility, the word "omnipotent" includes the implication of having almighty power, thus scaling above what doesn't have almighty power within the setting, which includes Black Hole's peak in this case. The statement referring to Four's versatile ability to do things like turn a cloud into a functional timer is the reason it's acknowledged as being reality warping while excluding physicality, aside from how it would probably be a hyperbole if it were including physicality due to Four sometimes being portrayed as having physical limits. The word "omnipotent" means "having unlimited power and being able to do anything."

At best, i can see Two having a "possibly High 3-A via Reality Warping" due to the limitless power statement

Even though, yes, Omnipotence in general also refers to physical capabilities, it wasn´t used that way on this context, so there is no reason to make it mean something that wasn´t included on the original portray of the word by WOG

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

At best, i can see Two having a "possibly High 3-A via Reality Warping" due to the limitless power statement

Even though, yes, Omnipotence in general also refers to physical capabilities, it wasn´t used that way on this context, so there is no reason to make it mean something that wasn´t included on the original portray of the word by WOG

I'm fine with applying "possibly High 3-A via Reality Warping" to Two as long as it also applies to Four, since both of them practically have the same magic methods of hosting. To support this stance: After Two was defeated by a zombie in another room, it was proposed by Pin that Four's power probably could've stopped the zombie apocalypse during BFDI:TPOT 9: Outbreak At Stake, but Four was written out of the circumstances seemingly so the episode could have risk. This implies that Four's supernatural abilities are better than Two's. I think it'd be fair to regard Four's reality warping as "possibly" as strong as Two's, especially due to the word "omnipotent" usually indicating better than the word "limitless," regardless of whether or not physical capabilities are being referred to.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

I'm fine with applying "possibly High 3-A via Reality Warping" to Two as long as it also applies to Four, since both of them practically have the same magic methods of hosting. To support this stance: After Two was defeated by a zombie in another room, it was proposed by Pin that Four's power probably could've stopped the zombie apocalypse during BFDI:TPOT 9: Outbreak At Stake, but Four was written out of the circumstances seemingly so the episode could have risk. This implies that Four's supernatural abilities are better than Two's. I think it'd be fair to regard Four's reality warping as "possibly" as strong as Two's, especially due to the word "omnipotent" usually indicating better than the word "limitless," regardless of whether or not physical capabilities are being referred to.

It is fine by me

 

[Psychomaster35]

May as well call on some staff.

@Qawsedf234 @DarkDragonMedeus @Theglassman12 Input on this simple CRT would be appreciated.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Btw: If this pass, are we applying only the upgrades mentioned in the OP?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Btw: If this pass, are we applying only the upgrades mentioned in the OP?

The forecast is currently that I'll mostly only implement the information from the original post while having taken suggestions from the discussion so that it's refined. This is subject to change based on further input from staff members who have evaluation power.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Bump

Also, if Black Hole gets his max size key, what would be of his Large Size? Pure Type 8, or Type 5-6, possibly 8?

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Bump

Also, if Black Hole gets his max size key, what would be of his Large Size? Pure Type 8, or Type 5-6, possibly 8?

It would be "At least Type 8"

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Bump

Also, if Black Hole gets his max size key, what would be of his Large Size? Pure Type 8, or Type 5-6, possibly 8?

It would be "At least Type 8"

I forgot about that. Yes, type 8 is the one.