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Black Clover : Good bye Mftl speed

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Kazuma_kuwabara said:
Paladins are perfect beings, they can't be weaker than mere mortals, even less when Morgen has one of the "primordial magics that shapes the world" and is slower than a dark elf who has his same magic without any title, just that is corrupted

When Paladins are CORRUPTION PURIFIED which is BETTER than the normal or corrupted variant
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slower than = weaker? I really don't understand how being a perfect being is necessarily superior to being an imperfect being. Besides, there really is context in this part. The word perfect in the context that Lucius is referring to can simply refer to a greater power. Wisdom that is sharper and a more stable body
 
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AstaDragon123 said:
slower than = weaker?
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Yes, if you can't understand that then what is the point of the conversation

Also, good job not answering how purified magic is better in everything that the corrupted version, I disagree with your proposal for my reasons, epsilon and Arnold reasons
 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
Yes, if you can't understand that then what is the point of the conversation

Also, good job not answering how purified magic is better in everything that the corrupted version, I disagree with your proposal for my reasons, epsilon and Arnold reasons
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So Julius was weaker than Morgen when he was alive because his light magic was the fastest at that time.
 
AstaDragon123 said:
So Julius was weaker than Morgen when he was alive because his light magic was the fastest at that time.
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Fallacy, Julius was stronger but was slower not counting precognition+ Julius have feats in the novels that would make him FTL for blitzing Nozel who was weeks prior to him defeating and having FTL feats against Dark elf patry

Nothing more to say to your agenda, even if this gets accepted the manga will continue and if another MFTL feat happens against real Lucius then all of this is pointless

Still, waiting for you to debunk that Paladins>>> Dark elfs in everything instead of "but speed is not important to be a perfect being"

Edit: And Jack literally did a FTL feat against Morgen too, Morgen is slower than Jack I guess and Yami too, Asta too, Yuno too, Jack is the faster character of Black Clover
 
CloverDragon03 said:
This is just gonna make things way more annoying to deal with. The CRT just says "the verse is capped at light speed" with zero proposals on how to fix stuff like the existing scaling that reaches FTL even without the MFTL calc that'll inevitably get removed

Not to mention, I don't think it's wrong to want to put any revisions regarding the Final Saga on hold until the series ends, no?
Click to expand...
 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
Fallacy, Julius was stronger but was slower not counting precognition+ Julius have feats in the novels that would make him FTL for blitzing Nozel who was weeks prior to him defeating and having FTL feats against Dark elf patry
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Nozel is not Ftl Let's say you only have 1 speed, but you can still hit a character have 1.1 speed.
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
Nothing more to say to your agenda, even if this gets accepted the manga will continue and if another MFTL feat happens against real Lucius then all of this is pointless
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I really wish it were like that, but right now it's not.
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
Still, waiting for you to debunk that Paladins>>> Dark elfs in everything instead of "but speed is not important to be a perfect being"
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Julius is stronger than Patry, but his speed is still less than Patry. This is not strange. Fastest character ≠ Strongest character Meanwhile The strongest character ≠ the fastest character.
 
One other thing I would like to mention is that Mereoleona is faster than Yami's Ki. Back then, her Ki was able to sense attacks and movements that were equivalent to the speed of light. I don't know what you guys are conveying. Really, should Mereoleona have Ftl speed? If that's the case, then characters who can keep up with her speed later, such as Lucifero or Asta, should also have Ftl speed. In the final arc, episodes 333-336, or when Asta returns after Zetten training, he has about the same speed with Lucius, Lucius was killed by Yami with a single slash. But Yami was shocked by Mogen's speed, which was just the speed of light. So I would like to know that Which one do you think is more of an outlier?
 
AstaDragon123 said:
Really, should Mereoleona have Ftl speed?
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She has a FTL calc that is not used for "consistency" and that is against Raia


AstaDragon123 said:
Lucifero or Asta, should also have Ftl speed.
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Lucifero is FTL for being 2 times faster than anyone who is 80% speed of light and this is ignoring multiple blitz in the series and massive power jumps, Asta of course scales to him in devil/true devil union and Yami, Nacht and Yuno should downscale (and scales to him fully with the combo spell kid's playground, but Yami now can't react to light in an even stronger form, which is an outlier literally)


AstaDragon123 said:
So I would like to know that Which one do you think is more of an outlier?
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Yami not reacting to light is the outlier
 
One thing for sure yuno and Lucius clones weren't as fast as the profiles suggest they are. The idea that those people who could keep up with Lucius clones who according to calculations should be 300x faster than 50% Lucifero ,is just too absurd to me and definitely to Tabata as well if he heard it. I'm not even convinced that characters like Gauche, Magna, Gordon, and so on now have enough speed to speedblitz Julius. So I'm totally not against this.
 
I don't think it's just a matter of "a single anti feat", It's not like Yami didn't dodge a light attack once, the entire chapter was in the context that Morgen is the strongest/fastest among everyone there (probably, with the exception of the real Lucius) and one of the reasons was the shadow magic that was much stronger than Yami's, and the light magic that gave him absurd speed. His movements and attacks are at the speed of light, the chapter made this explicit, and Yami, who one shoot Lucius' clone, admitted that the speed of light was too fast for him and does not provide openings for him to attack. Yami, just by having One Shot Lucius' clone, would already scale above Asta and Yuno and the clone himself, who were scaled at 300c, if he had 10% of that speed it would already be enough to surpass Morgen's speed and attack him with ease.
 
This CRT took an unexpected turn, the panel with the light speed attacks from Yami's statement and this one here, is a damanku of light speed attacks, Yami should only scale up to FTL 1.78c feeling pressure from multiple attacks a little slower than his reaction shouldn't be such a big problem here (the OP himself suggested this), in fact other panels show Yami reacting well to Morgen's singular attacks

the big problem is Lucius's speed scaling over Yuno, Lucius's clone was not fighting with the Full Power Yuno who did the MFTL feat, but rather with a much more limited Yuno who was using most of his power to maintain Neverland, so that the people of the kingdom do not die and Lucius cannot use his greatest asset which is time magic
 
King_Gorilla4002-8922 said:
This CRT took an unexpected turn, the panel with the light speed attacks from Yami's statement and this one here, is a damanku of light speed attacks, Yami should only scale up to FTL 1.78c feeling pressure from multiple attacks a little slower than his reaction shouldn't be such a big problem here (the OP himself suggested this), in fact other panels show Yami reacting well to Morgen's singular attacks

the big problem is Lucius's speed scaling over Yuno, Lucius's clone was not fighting with the Full Power Yuno who did the MFTL feat, but rather with a much more limited Yuno who was using most of his power to maintain Neverland, so that the people of the kingdom do not die and Lucius cannot use his greatest asset which is time magic
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The MFTL fest should be getting axed, as it's clear now that the alleged lasers used to calc it aren't actually light speed

And please can everyone stop trying to say it's because of the number of attacks? Yami literally says Morgen is "too damn fast"
 
I don't agree the verse should cap at LS in the slightest, nor should there be any downgrades. Quite simply its nonsensical, and contradicts the entire series especially. You’re telling me that these characters barely got faster between the cave arc, and final arc. That's not something we can simply over look.

AstaDragon123 said:
Yami said that just having to deal with these attacks with the Black Moon was enough.
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For starters, I didn't even realize Yami was defending with Black Moon until I reread the chapter, which adds substantial context. He's blatantly talking about the limitations of Black Moon due to Morgens output, which was brought up on multiple occassions. Several chapters ago before Morgen buffed his light, Yami's black moon blocked his light rays just fine. After getting one shot he lost Black Moon, Yami didn't reactivate Black Moon until after he saved Nacht with his new form.

He specifically states "that attack was light speed, it was all I could do to block it with black moon" Black Moon blocks spells by nullifying/erasing them. It drags them in, and erases them, that's what dark magic does.

However, attacks with a higher magnitude of power can nullify that property and these rays were straight up ignoring it, so he could only parry/deflect them. A light speed attack of that magnitude would absolutely wreck him if it connected. Yami says he has no openings, and that's because Morgen is surrounding himself with several lights that have the magnitude to blast through his nullification barrier + a mass of darkness that can drag in any of his dark magic spells

Morgen used his darkness to enhance the AP of his light to counter Yami's nullification. Not only is dark magic inherently slow, but in order to enhance it's speed one must use cloaked weapons in conjunction with reinforcement magic as stated by Patry and confirmed with Yami. Mages reinforce their bodies with magic to exceed the speed of their attributes. The same applies for light magic and anti-magic. Need I remind you Yami stated Morgen himself was too fast, and not his attacks.

Ichika also states her dark Yojutsu works best with martial arts and sword fighting. None of those things are present in Black Moon so. His reactions aren't the problem, the output of the spell is.

It's contradictory to assume Yami's Black Hole can't neg light speed spells when it's literally negged one of two spells stated to be lightspeed on panel. A much weaker Yami with Black Hole (which is just a weaker Black Moon) immediately restricted Patry's light speed movement spell, so it definitely wasn't the speed of the spell that's the issue, it was output. That means a mage using light magic, to move at LS cannot escape the pull of his Black Moon without being caught in it. Patry blatantly stated that he didn't think there was a spell that capable of stopping his light speed movement. Yami has no counter to Morgens darkness or light since he's being countered by both attributes. The darkness that amplified his light is the exact same darkness that swallowed his dimension slash. Black Moon is consistently negged by spells with far superior output. 50% Lucifero's gravitational field, Morgens dark aura that drew him in, Dante's singularity all of these achieved just that.

Need I remind you in the cave arc Yami stated if Asta would have been incinerated by Patry's divine ray of punishment if he tried to deflect it since its a light speed with a substantial output, not even Yami could deflect that. The demon-soul pill enhances physical abilities of the one who takes it by raising their magic power. That's why Yami can even parry the attack without turning into dust. His physical abilities are boosted enough the withstand the recoil, and is able to physically react to Morgens LS attacks even after he fired them. Yes Yami has ki, but its explicitly shown that he's able to react to the attacks after they're fired. Yami caught the attack with his sword, then parried up his head. We even see the deflected flash in the distance. Yami is able to react to the attacks after then launched. Morgen continuously spams his attacks, and Yami in response consistently dodges and parries


AstaDragon123 said:
He was also shocked by Paladin Morgen's speed.
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In the cave arc Patry didn't even think Yami was fast enough to dodge his ray of divine punishment since he considered it a speed he would never avoid. 300+ chapters later, not only is Yami deflecting these "unavoidable" speeds but he's dodging them. It makes no sense to assume Yami only "barely" got faster throughout the entire series when he's dodging attacks that were assumed to be unavoidable. The makes absolutely no sense especially with what happened in this chapter. Morgen had to bull rush Yami in order throw him off balance just to tag him. And for the record. Yami Morgen himself is too fast, not the light he's shooting. And we know for a fact characters can outspeed their own attacks considering berserk Asta statued his own slash to tag Dante, since his ranged attacks were too slow to tag him.

Furthermore, Ichika intercepted Morgen's LS attack when they're were only a few feet away from blasting holes in her brother. Meaning she outsped the rays before they could even hit Yami which at minimum should be an ftl feat, and we know Ichika and Yami at this point should at least be relative in speed.

Black moon in its current state is a bad matchup for Morgens attacks since the output of his attacks are too high, while Ichika's Black Star is a solid counter since it can just redirect it. So the challenge is the magnitude of the attack, not its speed. It's even stated that they'll focus on deflecting the attack since they couldn't absorb it. There's not one single scan that says LS is too fast. Again, the issue was the magnitude of the spell, not the speed. We've seen confirmed light speed spells with wide ranges and narrow ranges and varying outputs of powers. Yami's Black Hole from the cave arc could stop weaker LS spells such as Patry's movement spell so the Yami had issues combatting the out of Morgen's spell, not the speed. Getting hit by LS spell of that magnitude would absolutely wreck him since Morgen has superior magic power. There's not a single statement that says Morgen's attack was too fast, what was stated was that Morgen himself is too fast. There are numerous instances of characters having physical speed superior to the speed of their ranged attacks.

TLDR; Yami saying if he's hit at the SOL with an attack of that magnitude, he's finished, he's not trying to end up like Jack. Not once did he say it was too fast. That "LS" cap should be a no go.


AstaDragon123 said:
Didn't I tell you that before Yami he was able to One Shot Lucius with a single slash? Then let's compare it with Yuno who had to be seriously injured to defeat Lucius. And don't forget that the Yuno when he defeated Lucius was Yuno whose AMP was above speed 478.48c.
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Yami being able to one shot the Lucius clone shouldn't affect the speed scaling considering Yami had issues with the magnitude of Morgen's attack and not the speed. As stated earlier Black Moon has already nullified light speed attacks, however it cannot neg a light speed attack that has a higher magnitude of power.
 
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AstaDragon123 said:
Yami was about 10-20 meters away from Morgen, and according to the picture he was still using his hands to block attacks.
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Yami put up his hands to block after Morgen launches his spell. This was after he launched the dimension slash that was absorbed.

AstaDragon123 said:
And if he was only using Black Moon to defend, why would he move his arms to block those light spells?
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In the first scan where the light is being blocked by the black moon barrier Morgan is simultaneously outputting a constant light attack AND using his dark magic to pull Yami towards him. Mind you, Morgen started started using dark magic since Yami's light magic kept countering him. Fast forward to the the latest capture and those lights absolutely blast through black moon liker butter since he started using the darkness to amp the light, hence why he actually has to parry since it cannot be nullified.
 
Xinsignia1 said:
Yami put up his hands to block after Morgen launches his spell. This was after he launched the dimension slash that was absorbed
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This didn't look any different from Yami's. Blocks Patry's light magic, which does not increase his speed.
Xinsignia1 said:
In the first scan where the light is being blocked by the black moon barrier Morgan is simultaneously outputting a constant light attack AND using his dark magic to pull Yami towards him. Mind you, Morgen started started using dark magic since Yami's light magic kept countering him. Fast forward to the the latest capture and those lights absolutely blast through black moon liker butter since he started using the darkness to amp the light, hence why he actually has to parry since it cannot be nullified.
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I didn't say Pimyami, he actually used his arms to block attacks. Further, this is no different from point 1.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
The MFTL fest should be getting axed, as it's clear now that the alleged lasers used to calc it aren't actually light speed
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Are they the same rays of divine punishment and if they weren't, what would that attack be based on? Lucius' arsenal only includes light manipulation as a laser attack.

Other than that, Ichika was also able to perform a visually FTL feat.
CloverDragon03 said:
And please can everyone stop trying to say it's because of the number of attacks? Yami literally says Morgen is "too damn fast"
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Yes, he called Morgen fast, not light speed, and how can we ignore that damanku panel? The OP's proposal for demotion is about those specific attacks
 
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