Bill Cipher Revisions

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Sorry I've been gone all day, but I'm back.

Anyway, a few things...

1. The "potentially higher" has literally no reason to be gone from Bill's page, as it is based on something he does in the show and something we know he can do. Yes it's not combat applicale without prep, but there is no reason it shouldn't be mentioned.

2. Why were Bill's friends moved to unknown? We were shown their power was directly linked to his in the physical world, and he repeatedly described them as "all powerful" when grouping them with himself. Is it because they were defeated by the Mystery Shack mech in massive PIS? Because so was Bill, temporarily. Hell, the only thing that we saw for sure was that if Bill would be allowed to escape Gravity Falls, his friends would also be unleashed on the universe, roaming around and playing tennis with planets and such. In fact, this should probably give them a quantifiable speed.

3. There is no reason for the mention of Bill being higher dimensional to be removed, as he very clearly is. He needs a physical form to fully interact with the universe, not to ascend from being 2-D. Even before he has a physical form, he repeatedly possesses individuals' minds, controls matter, stops time, etc. Do these sound like things a 2-D being is capable of? He very clearly became higher dimensional after "liberating" the 2nd dimension, and assuming he's STILL 2-D would require ignoring literally all of his appearances prior to Weirdmageddon.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Antvasima was the one that took them out, Azathoth...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Antvasima was the one that took them out, Azathoth...

I know. I'm explaining why I believe that's actually not the right decision.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Aye.

 

[Antvasima]

1) We have no proof that he could continue to ascend to higher dimensions, and nothing of the sort was mentioned within the show as far as I remember.

2) Because they never ever personally demonstrated any high scale to speak of, and if they broke free would likely get all of their power from Bill, similarly to what he offered Ford. It is not PIS if they were consistently treated as pushovers on their own, rather than the other way around.

3) Possessing minds, controlling matter, and stopping time are all things that have been done by 3-D beings in plenty of fictions. It is possible that he is 4-Dimensional, but logically, in that case all that could be affected by 3-D beings would have been infinitely thing slices or "shadows" of him. He could not have been in serious danger at any point in the show.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. Logically, since he did so from the second dimension, wouldn't he have the ability to continue to do so? Obviously it is not an instant process, but it would not make sense for him to be able to ascend from his initial number of dimensions and then cap at three for no real reason.

2. Yes, they got all their power from Bill, which was mentioned on their profile. On their own they would obviously be pushovers, but shouldn't it be accounted for when Bill was powering them? Especially since that seemed to be the case for most of the time they inhabited the material universe?

3. My point wasn't that those things make him higher dimensional. They were that those things confirm he was no longer two dimensional during the show. This is important when he later mentions his "multi-dimensional makeover", which some people seem to think imply him going from 2-D to 3-D, even though he is clearly never 2-D during the events of the show and would not have mentioned this to Ford were it the case. There's also the fact that he never was actually in any danger until he was in the Mindscape, during which his 3-D physical form was nothing but solid stone. Harm to his physical form clearly did not carry over to his actual essence, as he had to be erased from the Mindscape (in his true form) in order to be stopped.

 

[Antvasima]

1) We were only told that he intended to rule the universe, not that he intended to continue ascending. Or at least I do not remember anything of the sort.

2) I think that we should rate them based on their own innate abilities, which were not shown to be particularly impressive.

3) Again, he was consistently inconvenienced or threatened by 3-Dimensional beings, whether mentally or physically. It should not matter that he was within the mindscape if he was higher-dimensional. It should still only have been an infinitely thin representation of his true self.

Still, I suppose that this could simply be plot induced stupidity, given that his full scale of power was likely 4-Dimensional, but in that case we should probably insert a "possibly" before Higher-Dimensional Manipulation in his powers an abilities section. It is not a done deal.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. My point is more that he could continue ascending, not that he intended to. Though it is entirely possible he would have done so anyway once he grew bored with the universe.

2. Do we know their own innate abilities, though? I was under the impression their very presence in the universe was powered by Bill, hence why they were booted out after his defeat.

3. I would argue massive PIS on the being threatened or inconvenienced in the physical world, as I said before, the finale's end goal was always "Bill loses/happy ending", not to show off what Bill could do. It didn't matter how he lost, as long as he did.

On the subject of the Mindscape, I'm not so sure that would still be an infinitely thin representation of himself, due to us having no idea how the realm itself works. For instance, when Dipper was forced into the Mindscape, he was completely unable to affect to physical world (aside from possessing a puppet). However, when Bill was in the Mindscape, he could stop time in the real world, warp reality, change gravity, contol matter, etc.

Still, due to how confusing the whole thing is, the "possible" is completely fine.

 

[Antvasima]

1) And my point is that we cannot rate him that high based on speculation regarding something that was never mentioned within the show. It would not be responsible of us to do so, and his ascension could likely have been a one-time deal.

2) Well, we know that they could be beaten by a junkyard robot construct, but I placed them on unknown ratings.

3) Alright then.

 

[Antvasima]

So, since this seems to have been settled, I suppose that I should close the topic.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Sorry for reopening the thread but i have something to add , i think his speed should be MFTL+ travel speed with Human reactions since he couldn't catch Dipper and Mabel and he couldn't react to the robot arm.